SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Katrina
Sept 4, 2005 16:38:03 GMT -5
Post by SirSaxa on Sept 4, 2005 16:38:03 GMT -5
All this talk about whether or not Frank Rich is entitled to -- or capable of -- having an opinion (while totally ignoring what he actually wrote) is really beside the point. And if living "in the NYC Bubble" makes one incapable of fully understanding life in America, what does living in the Washington DC bubble do? OR the Dallas bubble? or any other city or town in this country? If you are only going to live in one place -- as most people do -- there is nowhere in this country that one will get more exposure to different cultures, races, religions, ethnicities, opinions and media than NYC. I don't understand why that would make someone from NYC less qualified than someone from anywhere else to comment on what is happening in America.
And responding to legitimate criticism and totally justified outrage about the thoroughly incompetent, insensitive, out-of-touch and woefully insufficient Federal response to a major US emergency by claiming it is political or partisan is simply absurd. But it is a typical Bush/Rove response... don't deal with the actual facts of the situation, try to distract the public and smear the complainer.
On this board, I would expect a more substantive discussion.
When the President makes his entire presidency about protecting America from harm, reorganizes the federal govt. (emasculating FEMA in the process) to ensure that it is capable of responding to catastrophes -- terrorist or otherwise -- claims that we must reelect him because no one else is capable of managing these emergencies and protecting us, and then completely drops the ball when an actual emergency takes place -- one that is so huge and crosses so many state boundaries that ONLY the Federal govt. can respond -- that is more than worthy of withering criticism. Responding to legitimate criticism by claiming partisanship, or that it is from someone who lives in NYC, or from someone who watches CNN or reads the NY Times... instead of actually considering and responding to the facts.... that is a complete cop out. I don't think the Jesuits at Georgetown would agree that it is an appropriate or honest way to respond to criticism -- by distracting and deflecting instead of actually discussing the real issues.
In fact, refusing to acknowledge the utter incompetency of the Federal response is the real partisan position. There is no other reason to defend Bush and his administration. It certainly cannot be defended based on the facts. They are still -- a week after the event -- rescuing thousands of people from rooftops and balconies and dropping water and MREs from helicopters to get to people -- in a Major American City. Does anyone believe the Administration when they claim that National Guard and Reserve troops in Iraq are not being missed in Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana right now?
One final thought, we heard all kinds of outrage from Tom Delay, Bill Frist and the rest when they wanted to save the life of brain-dead Terri Schiavo. Frist went so far as to claim she was misdiagnosed. Delay threatened judges about it. Bush even interrupted yet another vacation to fly back to Washington to deal with that "emergency" and sign a bill about it. Where is that same outrage when thousands are dying and stranded in New Orleans -- and all up and down the Gulf Coast?
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Katrina
Sept 4, 2005 18:04:37 GMT -5
Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Sept 4, 2005 18:04:37 GMT -5
I think that there are 2 issues that have conspired to make the situation on the ground in the NO Gulf Coast Area even worse.
1 - Massive tax cuts, spending on 2 wars, and misdirected government infrastructure spending have meant that existing infrastructure in the United States has not been updated, reinforced, etc. There have been 2 major infrastructure failures in the United States under President Bush's watch - the NYC black out and the NO flood - both were preventable and probably wouldn't have happened if the USA had maintained spending levels for infrastructure that were in place in 1980 - however since that time successive governments have seen The Army Corps of Engineers and infrastructure as being an expendible item on a government balance sheet.
2 - The complete restructuring of the Federal Response to Disaster Relief has created a situation where there are way too many cooks in the kitchen and the chain of command seems to be in dissaray. There is a general on the ground coordinating efforts who reports to DoD, there are Chertoffs people who report to DHS, and there is FEMA which doesn't seem to really be able to perform any of its past tasks as seen in past disasters like Andrew, the North Ridge Earthquakes, etc, etc. I think that the legislation that reorganized the federal disaster reponse set these organizations up to respond to a terror attack and not much thought actuall went into an actual natural disaster. In addition, it seems that there has been no investment made in creating ways for all the reponders - city, state, federal to communicate with each other effectively - it seems that often the volunteers on the ground cannot work in any coordinated manner. It seems like there is not one federal response but rather several - the coast guard, navy, army corps of engineers, army, state and local police, DHS, and FEMA all seem to be doing there own thing and there doesn't seem to be all that much understanding of what other groups are going and what the actual situation on the ground is.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,756
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Katrina
Sept 4, 2005 20:07:29 GMT -5
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 4, 2005 20:07:29 GMT -5
All this talk about whether or not Frank Rich is entitled to -- or capable of -- having an opinion (while totally ignoring what he actually wrote) is really beside the point. And if living "in the NYC Bubble" makes one incapable of fully understanding life in America, what does living in the Washington DC bubble do? OR the Dallas bubble? or any other city or town in this country? If you are only going to live in one place -- as most people do -- there is nowhere in this country that one will get more exposure to different cultures, races, religions, ethnicities, opinions and media than NYC. I don't understand why that would make someone from NYC less qualified than someone from anywhere else to comment on what is happening in America. I think we'll have to agree to disagree because we're speaking on two different issues. My response was specific to Frank Rich and was not about GWB, FEMA, etc. Rich is a noted and talented writer who nonetheless talks down or belittles those whom he disagrees with. In Democratic circles, I would prefer listening to someone like James Carville in the sense that he does not speak down to his audience and still gets his points across. Granted, Republicans have their share of windbags, too. Rush Limbaugh's been doing the same routine since he was calling himself "Jeff Christie" at KQV-AM in Pittsburgh in the 1970's. Ditto (no pun intended) for Father John McLaughlin and Bill O'Reilly. (O'Reilly was a movie critic here on a Dallas TV station before he found his conservative calling.) My original point, way back when, encouraged readers to go beyond the mainstream media and follow the local coverage. WWL-TV should win awards for their extraordinary coverage of the last week and the Times-Picayune has also done a significant public service. That in no way means that CNN or the Times is wrong or somehow unqualified to cover the story, but the local coverage is a step ahead. Over and out.
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Katrina
Sept 4, 2005 23:40:51 GMT -5
Post by jerseyhoya34 on Sept 4, 2005 23:40:51 GMT -5
I've actually picked up on an interesting story that has not been mentioned in this thread, and I am not sure whether it has been aired on Faux, MSNBC, or CNN. Initially, the Bush Administration appeared lukewarm to offers of aid from other countries, as President Bush indicated that we could fend for ourselves. At least one offer, one from Russia, was not accepted. Hours later, the course was wisely reversed, and offers were welcomed. I'd be curious to know the logic behind not accepting offers of aid. Although a relatively minor matter in the grand scheme of this tragedy, I think it is a microcosm of a larger problem with the response. www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2005/09/02/us_sends_mixed_signals_on_accepting_aid_from_abroad/
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Katrina
Sept 5, 2005 0:26:10 GMT -5
Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Sept 5, 2005 0:26:10 GMT -5
that is really strange that the administration would say that they weren't excepting any sort of aid from foreign countries - that would seem to be a pro forma move in a disaster of this size - I hope that Bush wasn't playing politics by not accepting aid from a country that opposed the Iraq war.
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Nevada Hoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 18,433
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Katrina
Sept 5, 2005 12:34:05 GMT -5
Post by Nevada Hoya on Sept 5, 2005 12:34:05 GMT -5
One other issue that has come to my attention is the lack of security, especially at the Superdome. Because of the disaster, the drug users could not get their fixes and were running rampant there. Race became an issue as a group of Irish tourists were fearful of their lives, when another band of thugs came after them. Where were the police and the national guard here? The ones still on the roofs and in their attics were probably safer. The Irish tourists finally went home detesting the US. The coverage in Canada, for example, is different that what is being shown in domestic TV.
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Katrina
Sept 5, 2005 19:49:35 GMT -5
Post by jerseyhoya34 on Sept 5, 2005 19:49:35 GMT -5
The topic of race has come up in some of these discussions about Katrina, and I think it needs to be addressed. I am NOT in the camp that believes racial factors have played a role in the lack of adequate response, but I do believe that they have colored how the event is portrayed and digested. Media reports are particularly startling in terms of the overt and covert messages that they send in their coverage. For example, I've noticed that African-Americans, who are looting, are described as looters, whereas Caucasians, who are looting also for the same basic necessities, are not portrayed or described as looters, with criminal connotations. Similarly, African-Americans have frequently been depicted as rushing the relief supplies, but does anyone honestly believe that Caucasians are not doing the same thing? African-Americans are described as "refugees," while others are "victims." I just find much of the coverage to be portraying the African-Americans in a negative light, while Caucasians are elevated, and I find it disturbing. And a disturbing comment today from a familiar voice in political circles... ""And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this [she chuckles slightly]is working very well for them." That was former First Lady Barbara Bush. www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054719
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nychoya3
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,674
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Katrina
Sept 5, 2005 20:00:49 GMT -5
Post by nychoya3 on Sept 5, 2005 20:00:49 GMT -5
The Bush comment is so appalling that I almost have to doubt it's veracity. I sincerely hope this gets played nationally, because people who hold such comtempt for the less fortunate need to be publicly shamed. That she is 80 years old and cuts a sympathetic figure is no excuse - it's just disgusting.
The hurricane, to me has been more revealing of class than race.
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Katrina
Sept 5, 2005 20:11:24 GMT -5
Post by jerseyhoya34 on Sept 5, 2005 20:11:24 GMT -5
I am looking out for confirmation. E&P kind of walks a fine line and might be compared to something like a Raw Story. Hopefully we'll see if others pick it up or whether we hear something more about it.
On edit, Matt Sludge is running with it and has audio up on his site. The remarks were aired on NPR earlier tonight.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Katrina
Sept 5, 2005 20:45:36 GMT -5
Post by SirSaxa on Sept 5, 2005 20:45:36 GMT -5
It is not possible to separate the issues of race and class. They are too intertwined.
But what is very clear to anyone who thinks this through, is that this would never have happened if those affected were from a more privileged class. On the other board, I posted some theoretical examples of other groups who might have been stranded -- perhaps as they attended a convention in New Orleans. A large group of Christian Fundamentalists Republicans, for example. Or girl scouts from Salt Lake City who all looked like Elizabeth Smart -- that blond kid who was kidnapped from her home a couple years back. Imagine if 10,000 of those little girls were stuck in N. O., in the dark, no food or water, no power, overflowing toilets, and roving gangs raping and killing some of them.
Can you also imagine GWB doing nothing? Really. Even if you are an enormous Bush fan... can you imagine that? I sure can't.
Or after the full extent of his inaction and incompetence was revealed, would anyone believe the karl Rove smear machine claiming that government is unmanageable so there was nothing that anyone could do? So GWB is blameless? And oh, by the way, it is all the fault of Louisiana and N. O. officials. The pres. of the USA -- the most powerful man in the world -- could do nothing. But this is the same man we should trust to keep us all safe from the terrorists.
It is obvious that class and race made a huge difference in this situation. Just as it is obvious this president is in way over his head and has no idea what he is doing. We are all suffering the consequences.
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kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Posts: 9,934
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Katrina
Sept 5, 2005 22:53:52 GMT -5
Post by kchoya on Sept 5, 2005 22:53:52 GMT -5
Here's some more context to the quote:
"Almost everyone I’ve talked to says we're going to move to Houston," Barbara Bush told NPR.
"What I’m hearing is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality.
"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this --this is working very well for them."
I think I can maybe, sort of see where she was going with that last sentence, but there's really no good way to spin that last quote, whatever the intent may have been.
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nodak89
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Roy Roy Royyyyy!!!
Posts: 1,881
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Katrina
Sept 6, 2005 9:24:49 GMT -5
Post by nodak89 on Sept 6, 2005 9:24:49 GMT -5
Katrina is starting to look like the worst natural disaster in U.S. history. I ask all to dig into their pockets and give to help the relief and very extended recovery for the area. For those of us raised in that area of the country, we are in a state of shock. It's our 9-11. May God watch over those who have lost so much. This is something for Wednesday's confirmation class... tinyurl.com/9hoeq
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EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,272
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Katrina
Sept 6, 2005 12:08:08 GMT -5
Post by EasyEd on Sept 6, 2005 12:08:08 GMT -5
My earlier pleas for putting aside the politics of Katrina obviously have failed so I'll join in. I can't find the link but today's Washington Post has a list of states housing or offering to house those displaced because of Katrina. If you have access to the Post take a look at the states. Notice they are ALMOST all Red states. California, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, etc. are missing completely from the list. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the list but what message does that send? Maybe those dumb cowboys, rednecks, trailer-park inhabitants, and other "uneducated" have something to offer to the elite from elsewhere.
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Katrina
Sept 6, 2005 12:17:12 GMT -5
Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Sept 6, 2005 12:17:12 GMT -5
My earlier pleas for putting aside the politics of Katrina obviously have failed so I'll join in. I can't find the link but today's Washington Post has a list of states housing or offering to house those displaced because of Katrina. If you have access to the Post take a look at the states. Notice they are ALMOST all Red states. California, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, etc. are missing completely from the list. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the list but what message does that send? Maybe those dumb cowboys, rednecks, trailer-park inhabitants, and other "uneducated" have something to offer to the elite from elsewhere. I just purchased a map of the United States this week and realized that NO is surrounded by Red States. I don't really think that moving most of these people to California or New England makes much sense because most families do want to stay close to their homes during this period of displacement.
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Katrina
Sept 6, 2005 12:34:39 GMT -5
Post by jerseyhoya34 on Sept 6, 2005 12:34:39 GMT -5
I read a story earlier today about a relief effort from Wisconsin where their trucks for displaced persons came back without anyone in them. They were diverted from NOLA after encountering red tape, so they moved on to Texas and met a similar fate.
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nychoya3
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,674
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Katrina
Sept 6, 2005 12:45:07 GMT -5
Post by nychoya3 on Sept 6, 2005 12:45:07 GMT -5
New York City sent down 300 police officers and rescue/recovery specialists, and is making preperations to shelter thousands of people. Noted anti-American commies Moveon.org has a website where thousands have offered their homes to shelter people. But whatever. I'm all for a competition on who cares more about all these displaced people - they need all the attention they can get.
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EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,272
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Katrina
Sept 6, 2005 12:50:37 GMT -5
Post by EasyEd on Sept 6, 2005 12:50:37 GMT -5
So the hurricane occurred in an area surrounded by Red states! Michigan is listed as offering to house 100-10,000 people; Arizona, 1,800; West Virginia, 500; Utah, 450; Ohio, 120; Colorado, 1,000; Pennsylvania, 900-1,200; Minnesota, 3,000; South Carolina, 18,000. And, New York, 0; New Jersey, 0; Connecticut, 0; California, 0. You may excuse it as Katrina occurred in Red state country but Michigan, Ohio, Utah, etc. are not exactly the deep South. No one seems to have any trouble blasting Bush for his response, but offer nothing but excuses about the lack of response to housing those who had to leave their homes. Having said that, I also believe the President did not respond to the crisis of Katrina and his decision not to drop everything to address the issue immediately was his worst performance in office. The same could be said about the mayor of New Orleans and the governor of Louisiana.
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kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Posts: 9,934
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Katrina
Sept 6, 2005 13:08:06 GMT -5
Post by kchoya on Sept 6, 2005 13:08:06 GMT -5
I think Utah has/is having a couple hundred come in a day. The funny thing is (as funny as something can be in this situation) is that a lot of people aren't told where they're going, or they're told the wrong place, and the step off the plane in Salt Lake and realize that they're not in Texas.
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Katrina
Sept 6, 2005 13:21:48 GMT -5
Post by jerseyhoya34 on Sept 6, 2005 13:21:48 GMT -5
One should note that Governors are the appropriate actors in state government to coordinate response plans and to formalize transfers of displaced persons. When you mention CA, NY, and CT, they all have Republican governors. Off the top of my head, AZ, MI, PA, and OH all have Democrats in the Executive Mansion. As for NJ, I am not overly familiar with what Acting Gov. Codey has done in terms of the relief, but this is a link to one of his press releases on the matter: www.politicsnj.com/codey090105a.htm
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Katrina
Sept 6, 2005 15:08:33 GMT -5
Post by SirSaxa on Sept 6, 2005 15:08:33 GMT -5
From BBC NEWS
Bush to lead inquiry into Katrina
US President George W Bush says he will lead an investigation into how the Hurricane Katrina disaster was handled. "I'm going to find out over time what went right and what went wrong," he said in reply to criticism that the authorities were too slow to respond."
What a joke. Now BUSH of all people, is going to investigate what went wrong? Next we'll have Donald Fehr investigating why steroids were so prevalent in baseball, assisted by Bud Selig.
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