SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Katrina
Sept 2, 2005 14:08:50 GMT -5
Post by SirSaxa on Sept 2, 2005 14:08:50 GMT -5
Why is CNN at the Superdome and the Convention center, and there's NO national guard presence? As a former member of the (campus) media, I don't say this lightly ... but how many people could CNN and all the other media outlets save if, instead of live broadcasts, they all gave their power generators to a hospital and drove 15 people each out of town in their vans? That's ad-hoc and incremental, but it's way more useful than trying to take pictures of people who have passed away in this tragedy. Actually, that is not accurate. By focusing national attention on the problem with cameras on location (a picture is worth a thousand words) CNN can be exponentially more effective by making the entire country aware of the problem and embarrassing our President and administration into doing what they should have done instantaneously. Bush defenders will make excuses for him no matter what happens in Iraq, N.O. or anywhere else. but "the buck stops here" still applies, no matter how much Bush and Karl Rove try to convince us otherwise.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,748
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Katrina
Sept 2, 2005 14:11:51 GMT -5
Post by SFHoya99 on Sept 2, 2005 14:11:51 GMT -5
Best wishes to everyone who has loved ones or lives in the area.
Let's hope the rescue operations work better from here on out.
As for blame, I'd say blame everyone. Especially those in FEMA leadership. It has been a horrible response to a disaster and things need to be fixed. Everyone involved from local to national holds blame.
It was anticipatable, and as an emergency organization, you always prepare for the worst. Bush deserves the blame he is getting, but so do many, many others including the Democratic Governor of NO and especially FEMA upper management. Us debating on a message board isn't inhibiting the effort. Maybe the criticism will get him off his ass.
We got to Baghdad quicker than the National Guard got to New Orleans. There's something wrong with that.
Even Bush agrees: “The results are not acceptable.”
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nychoya3
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,674
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Katrina
Sept 2, 2005 17:34:07 GMT -5
Post by nychoya3 on Sept 2, 2005 17:34:07 GMT -5
This should surprise no one, but Frist wants to bring the Estate Tax Repeal to the floor on Tuesday. Also still planning on holding the Roberts hearings as scheduled. This would be disturbing if politics were still relevant, but really what we need to do is rally around our incompetent, CYA political leaders.
And yes, this crisis unfolded just about exactly as the tabletop preperations said it would and plenty of studies said the same. I'm angry about New Orleans, and I'm scared that 4 years after 9/11, we couldn't begin to respond to a crisis that had several days of warning leading up to it.
Finally, a note on Guiliani worship - I'm agnostic on Rudy. He did one great thing as Mayor - he brought in Bill Bratton and turned the NYPD from a semi-competent organization to pretty much the model for what a PD should be. On the other hand, he was fiscally profligate and he needlessly antagonized minority communities to score political points and just to be a jerk. As for the idea that he was a huge success on 9/11, you need to distinguish between what he did (provided a strong face and a stern, hopeful message to the nation and the city) and what he didn't (organize a massive relief effort.) There was not much search and rescue to be done after 9/11, and it wasn't that Rudy truimphed as an organizer, but as a more ephemeral symbol of leadership and strength in difficult times. And that was important. But New Orleans needed something very different, and frankly, the Mayor or even the Governor didn't have the resources to command the sort of response that was neccesary. Only the federal government could.
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EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,272
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Katrina
Sept 2, 2005 19:24:04 GMT -5
Post by EasyEd on Sept 2, 2005 19:24:04 GMT -5
You deplore the Senate Majority Leader's actions and you say "...if politics were still relevant..", then spend the rest of your post taking pot shots at Bush, Frist (and Guliani) as "our incompetent, CYA political leaders" and under the cover of saying we didn't respond and "only the federal government could". I repeat my earlier request that we all pitch in to help now and save the blame game for later. What possible good does it do to trash the administration at this point in time. Do you have to take a national tragedy and convert it into political brownie points? Blame whoever later, if you want, but please stop it for now. People are dying.
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nychoya3
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,674
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Katrina
Sept 2, 2005 19:50:56 GMT -5
Post by nychoya3 on Sept 2, 2005 19:50:56 GMT -5
I don't understand how being angry at our political leaders is incompatiable with my understanding that people are dying. That's exactly why I'm angry! I take it you also deplore Frist's actions, since bringing this up now amounts to using the tragedy unfolding in New Orleans as political cover to pass unpopular legislation. That's certainly more objectionable "playing politics" than anything I can say on this message board (all of which I stand by.)
It's a measure of how out of control the Rudy hero worship is that you think what I wrote amounts to a potshot. I just said he's not quite as perfect a human being as some have come to believe.
I've donated to the Red Cross, and I encourage everyone else to do so. That much everyone can agree on.
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Katrina
Sept 3, 2005 8:27:00 GMT -5
Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Sept 3, 2005 8:27:00 GMT -5
DFW called me last Sunday just to touch base. He informed me of the grave danger Katrina posed to the Gulf Coast and to New Orleans. He also cited the FEMA report with the three most dangerous scenarios (Terrorism, quake in SF, hurricane in NO). Then he posited that the biggest danger wouldn't necessarily be wind damage but storm surge and the resulting flooding impact on the outdated and inadequately maintained levees around the lake and the Mississippi basin and how said impact could inundate all of New Orleans. If a private citizen, through publicly available sources, can accurately anticipate and forecast the greatest threats from this storm, what the hell were the public officials in the city of the New Orleans, the states of Louisiana, Misssissippi and Alabama, at FEMA as well as at the highest levels of this Administration doing to ensure public safety and prevent this worst-case scenario from unfolding?!?! DFW correctly states that tragedy is non-partisan; clearly there's no disputing that. All of us should do what we can, as private citizens, to contribute to the relief, resettlement and reconstruction efforts. But I would like to amplify DFW's statement with my own perspective: tragedy is non-partisan but tragedy can be averted, prevented, avoided or compounded, exacerbated, deepened by public policy and fiscal choices made as a result of leadership decisions and priorities at all levels. And this is where I have to express my deepest, heated and most vigorous opposition to this Administration (I'm not absolving local authorities from their responsibilities; they are on the first line of defense and everyone is far too aware of the sad and pathetic history of venality and incompetence that has long characterized political governance in New Orleans and the state of Louisiana). What disturbs me most, and I suspect what disturbs most Americans as well, has been the raw truth that the people most impacted by Katrina are those with the fewest financial resources (the great majority of whom, in this case if not across the nation, are African-American). This Administration has not, for one iota, made any sort of policy decision, budgetary choice or political calculus on their behalf (those people are not its natural constituency and this Administration's political/economic ideology rests on a set of assumptions that believes if policies are crafted to benefit the most well-off at the expense of any Federal involvement in the economy, they will drive prosperity upward and the benefits will filter down). Consequently, the President chooses to go to a political fundraising dinner amongst his natural constituency on Monday in San Diego instead of marshalling the fullest and most rigorous Federal response required to save lives in absence of preventive measures before Katrina's landfall. Unfortunately, such a response would have been less than optimal anyway because choices have already been made by this Administration regarding the spending and deployment of financial and human resources in the war on terrorism (see depleted availability of National Guard units because they have been deployed to Iraq). I am copying below a series of articles and editorials in the New York Times which detail these processes/policy decisions far more eloquently than I can (some of you may take issue with the sources, such as Krugman and Dowd--may I also add that the flaming-liberal David Brooks has a very insightful piece on the social impacts of Katrina as well!). George W. Bush has an MBA from Harvard. Yet time and again, as demonstrated by the choices and rhetoric of this Administration, he displays a fundamental lack of understanding of one the first lessons of economics/business: choices involve tradeoffs and opportunity costs among allocation of resources (which are inherently limited--other than human creativity, ingenuity and imagination--and sometimes scarce). You can't have a successful war on terrorism without some shared sacrifice or reality-based scenario planning for that matter. You can't expect to be a compassionate conservative (notice how nobody inside or outside the Administration uses that term anymore) without allocating the resources, be they public or private, needed to address the growing social and wealth gulf in this nation. Bush said yesterday in his visit, "I'm not disappointed in the response. I'm disappointed in the results." But this is the kind of nonsensical, non-sequitur and illogical thinking that has characterized his entire public life! The poor results to-date have been predicated exactly on a late response, a lack of planning and a lack of resources dedicated to such a scenario because the resources were deemed more important elsewhere! I'm not blaming Bush for a natural disaster; I would hope my argument is not so simplistic. I am blaming him and our so-called leaders at all levels for not putting policies in place that would have assisted people and communities to be less vulnerable in so many ways in the first place. This is the kind of government and Administration the American people knew it would get in the election of 2004. I'm deeply saddened and shocked by what has happened--but I'm not surprised. www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/opinion/01thu1.html?incamp=article_popular_3www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/opinion/02krugman.html?incamp=article_popularwww.nytimes.com/2005/09/03/opinion/03dowd.html?incamp=article_popularwww.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/opinion/02fri1.html?incamp=article_popularwww.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/national/nationalspecial/02discrim.html?incamp=article_popularwww.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/opinion/02fischetti.html?ex=1125892800&en=588154aeeee9984a&ei=5070www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/opinion/01brooks.html?ex=1125892800&en=d0428ad0c1c0cdbd&ei=5070
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,759
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Katrina
Sept 3, 2005 8:42:46 GMT -5
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 3, 2005 8:42:46 GMT -5
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Katrina
Sept 3, 2005 11:04:10 GMT -5
Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Sept 3, 2005 11:04:10 GMT -5
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Katrina
Sept 3, 2005 11:27:23 GMT -5
Post by SirSaxa on Sept 3, 2005 11:27:23 GMT -5
WBH -- good post.
The most significant question at this point, is why Bush was so inept that he could not marshall the US resources to deal with the disaster after the fact. He is, after all, the most powerful man in the world. It is just one more example of just how out of touch, unaware and incompetent he is. Nonetheless, Bush supporters will continue to defend him no matter how badly he performs. That is truly amazing. I wonder how they would feel if they and their families were in NO for the last 6 days, in the dark, 90+ degree heat, no water, no food, no plumbing, no law and order, no medicine and no one in command even having a presence there.
This is an absolute national disgrace, yet Bush says he isn't disappointed in the response and everyone is doing a great job.
By the way, to date they haven't taken any steps to control the fires in NO. Why not? I understand there is no water pressure in the city, but many of the fires are right by the river. Where are the fire boats? Bring them from other places if necessary. What about the forest fire fighters with their planes and helicopters to drop water and chemicals to stop fires?
This is among the worst "managed" events in the history of our country.
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Nevada Hoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 18,433
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Katrina
Sept 3, 2005 12:24:40 GMT -5
Post by Nevada Hoya on Sept 3, 2005 12:24:40 GMT -5
The firefighters from Nevada are gathered at Reunion arena in Dallas and are ready to go anytime. They are in fact getting antsy to help out; they just don't want to be sitting around.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,759
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Katrina
Sept 3, 2005 12:47:22 GMT -5
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 3, 2005 12:47:22 GMT -5
I hope any people who are relying on CNN and the New York Times to follow this coverage get away from the out of town media and go to the source: either the Times-Picayune or www.wwltv.com. FEMA is getting some well deserved complaints, but that's the government for you, whether the executive is Democrat or Republican. It was the same issue with Hurricane Andrew: the buracaucracy always works less efficiently than the private sector. Example: FEMA spent three days trying to drop 3000 lb. sandbags into a levee break without success, but it took a private contractor to drive in and start drilling pilings to help plug the leak. Also, to the point above, there are fire boats out there right now fighting a warehouse fire. Just saw it on WWL. The sad part is that this was not unexpected. A generation of federal, state and city governments all kept taking the gamble that they could avoid this. Read this link from the 2002 Times Picayune and it reads like a script from the past week. www.nola.com/hurricane/?/washingaway/
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Katrina
Sept 3, 2005 13:10:45 GMT -5
Post by SirSaxa on Sept 3, 2005 13:10:45 GMT -5
I hope any people who are relying on CNN and the New York Times to follow this coverage get away from the out of town media and go to the source: either the Times-Picayune or www.wwltv.com. FEMA is getting some well deserved complaints, but that's the government for you, whether the executive is Democrat or Republican. It was the same issue with Hurricane Andrew: the buracaucracy always works less efficiently than the private sector. Example: FEMA spent three days trying to drop 3000 lb. sandbags into a levee break without success, but it took a private contractor to drive in and start drilling pilings to help plug the leak. Also, to the point above, there are fire boats out there right now fighting a warehouse fire. Just saw it on WWL. Blaming this disasterous response in N. O. on FEMA is like blaming the Abu Ghraib scandal on a couple of privates. THe president -- faced with the greatest natural disaster in our nation's history, is the one who should be in charge, holding FEMA and everyone else accountable, bringing in the military, and demanding action, accountability and immediate progress. It is not an issue of bureacracy -- republican or democrat. That is simply a cop out. The President is the man in charge, as mentioned, the most powerful person in the world. Nothing was done because he didn't order it done. There is no doubt that FEMA bears a large amount of responsibility. And FEMA reports to the Bush created Homeland Security Dept. Its ineptitude is still directly traceable to Bush. If this were the military, the general in charge would bear the responsibility. In corporate America, the CEO would be responsible. In Bush world, no one is responsible or accountable -- ever.
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nychoya3
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,674
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Katrina
Sept 3, 2005 14:02:39 GMT -5
Post by nychoya3 on Sept 3, 2005 14:02:39 GMT -5
The single biggest villain to my eyes, thus far, is Michael Brown of FEMA. This is a guy who's expertise is in estate planning, who was fired from his last job at some sort of thoroughbred horse organization, and whose sole qualification was being Joe Albaugh's roommate (another guy unqualified for the job.) FEMA has a long history of being a patronage dumping ground, but Clinton appointed De Witt who was universally praised for his reforms, and for being genuinely expert in this area. Brown is a moron, who has clearly been utterly inept. Chertoff, meanwhile, is getting informed by CNN on Thursday that there are thousands of people at the convention center. Pathetic. These people need to get fired. But they won't be, because that would entail Bush admitting a mistake.
The "oh, it's just the government being the government" excuse is a cop out. It's meaningless. Put good people in charge, give them resources and goals, and things get done.
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Z
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 409
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Katrina
Sept 3, 2005 19:34:07 GMT -5
Post by Z on Sept 3, 2005 19:34:07 GMT -5
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Katrina
Sept 4, 2005 11:27:10 GMT -5
Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Sept 4, 2005 11:27:10 GMT -5
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Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,303
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Katrina
Sept 4, 2005 13:35:40 GMT -5
Post by Cambridge on Sept 4, 2005 13:35:40 GMT -5
Thanks for those links. All I can say is I'm so riled up right now. I'm sick and tired of all the lies and the spin. What ever happened to accountability and responsibility. I suppose it would be too much to deal with the american people honestly and with integrity.
These men are not christian. At least, not as I understand the faith. Jesus loved the poor and would have done anything to protect them. Not left them to die, while making callous comments and hiding behind rhetoric. Shame. Shame on these false prophets.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,759
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Katrina
Sept 4, 2005 14:09:36 GMT -5
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 4, 2005 14:09:36 GMT -5
Hard to take anything Frank Rich says objectively in this matter. Since graduating from Harvard, he's spent nearly his entire adult life in New York, mostly as a theater critic. It's fair to say that in his former life as a theater critic, he didn't spent much time in places like Slidell and Gulfport.
Contrast that to James Carville. He can be just as caustic, but at least he's lived outside the NYC bubble and can speak to issues that affect the common man out there. Last week, while talking about the need to see LSU play through this season, Carville told Mike Wilbon that "Anybody who can't understand what football means to us doesn't understand what the heck goes on down there." I'm guessing Frank Rich fits that bill.
Back to the point, now is not the time to push political agendas in the mainstream press--it is time to help people and to get things right in the Gulf Coast Region.
Or, as one person much closer to the situation put it, "I told the president, 'I'm into solutions. If the state government can't take responsibility, then you take it.' ... I think it's getting better, but the pace is still not sufficient...[Bush] said, 'Look, I know you said lots of things. We could have done better. I can't argue. Let's deal with the future.' ... [He] was really, really concerned." That was Democrat Ray Nagin, mayor of New Orleans, who's done above and beyond the last seven days.
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Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,303
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Katrina
Sept 4, 2005 14:40:36 GMT -5
Post by Cambridge on Sept 4, 2005 14:40:36 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but what is political about outrage? I'm am angry...not political.
Besides, not to be an ass but the don't be political nonsense always seems to come out of the cards at times most convenient to the administration. The same administration that has no trouble politicizing events and tragedies when it is in their favor. Color me unimpressed with this line of reasoning. For me at least, the boy has cried wolf a few too many times.
I agree that this is a time to give aid and focus on the victims, but you know what, it is also a time to question why this was allowed to happen. If we do not, we have failed, AGAIN, at our responsibility to prevent it from happening in the future.
For far too long, punchy, jingoist rhetoric has taken the place of actual action. I am sickened that people pay lipservice to aiding the poor and needy, while systematically dismantling the structure intended to provide it. The calculus of human value is tied too closely to economic values these days.
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nychoya3
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,674
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Katrina
Sept 4, 2005 14:48:59 GMT -5
Post by nychoya3 on Sept 4, 2005 14:48:59 GMT -5
Since Frank Rich has apparently sacrificed his right to hold informed opinions (which have been dead on about Iraq as well), perhaps the people of New Orleans are still entitled to speak? www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054586When is the right time to call a spade a spade? For god's sake, how can you watch what happened and NOT be angry? Not the time for politics? Tell that to Chertoff spinning his head off on the morning TV shows. Tell that to Bush and his phony, BS trip to New Orleans, where they pull rescuers out of the field to give him a nice photo-op. Everything the administration does is political, and if we're not allowed to say so, just what exactly are we allowed to say? It's pathetic, and frankly, DFW, you're smarter than that.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,759
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Katrina
Sept 4, 2005 15:32:12 GMT -5
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 4, 2005 15:32:12 GMT -5
Items of disclosure: I don't watch Sunday talk shows and I wouldn't know Michael Chertoff if he stood next to me. I guess I didn't learn from the right folks at Georgetown why politics is so all-consuming in the everyday scheme of things.
So has the government done enough? No. Did I really expect otherwise? No. I have more faith in the local and state folks to get it done, I guess.
Perhaps another thread could be devoted to the insular writings of Mr. Rich, who has actually argued against network news coverage because of stories getting away from New York and Washington, or what he called the "Nascar culture". Like [Father] John McLaughlin or Bill O'Reilly, it's hard to take the professional windbags seriously.
It was Rich who wrote: "Everything about the [2004] election results - and about American culture itself - confirms an inescapable reality...it's blue America, not red, that is inexorably winning the culture war, and by a landslide."
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