YB
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by YB on Oct 21, 2004 13:00:21 GMT -5
Sorry RDF, but I have to disagree with you here. Anyone who looks at the history here and doesn't see the Curse is deluding themselves. Aaron Boone? Bucky Dent? Calvin Schiraldi? C'mon.
I mean, obviously the Yanks have the better organization. But Boston's undoing is the stuff of Curses.
DEATH...... TAXES..... THE CURSE
GO NL!
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by RDF on Oct 21, 2004 13:51:16 GMT -5
Sorry RDF, but I have to disagree with you here. Anyone who looks at the history here and doesn't see the Curse is deluding themselves. Aaron Boone? Bucky Dent? Calvin Schiraldi? C'mon. I mean, obviously the Yanks have the better organization. But Boston's undoing is the stuff of Curses. DEATH...... TAXES..... THE CURSE GO NL! Believe me YB, I'm not "happy" about things either but each of the examples you gave have a more reasonable baseball analogy as to why NY won and Boston lost: 1. Bucky Dent hit a big HR in Fenway which would've been an out in most Parks. However the Yankees won that game 5-4 and Dent's HR made it 3-2 so for all of the "hype" that HR gets, Lou Pinella's play in RF saved the game as much as Dent's HR. He did go on to be the MVP of the World Series that season as well, so it's not like he didn't have a great Postseason. 2. Buckner catches way too much grief for that Series. Boston was up 2-0 going back to Fenway and couldn't close the Mets out there. Clemens was dominant and leaves the game--which was only a 2 run defecit. Schiraldi pitched for the Mets prior to being traded to Boston (I believe the Mets drafted him, not sure of this though) so they had a pretty good scouting report on him. The first two outs were balls hit on the button and as my former HS Coach Craig Kusick always pointed out (he was a former MLB Player with Twins) in a Professional Game, you'll always have one opportunity to get into the game (excluding a no-hitter/perfect game) and Mets got there's in bottom of inning. Bob Stanley is the guy who lost that game with his wild pitch--it allows tying run to score and moves Knight over a base. 3. Last but not least is the Boone HR. Few people ever talk about this but in Wakefield's appearance prior to Game 7--believe it was Game 4-- Boone who had been DREADFUL as a Yankee crushed a pitch in his last AB foul, just barely missing a Homerun. So the next time he sees him, he takes him yard. Boone had also hit 3/4 Walkoff HR's during that season for the Reds so it wasn't like he hadn't performed in a tight situation all season. If you want to bring up Curses and Ghosts, I think it applies more to Ghosts of Bad Baseball Decisions. To bring a knuckleballer into a tie game in extra innings is asking for trouble. If baserunners get on, it's asking to have someone score without needing a hit--which almost happened in Game 5 and would've if Torre either sent Matsui or pinch ran for him and sent Lofton/Crosby. You will have people calling this loss to Boston, the "Curse of A-Rod" but the simple fact is that Rodriguez singlehandedly got NY past Minnesota in ALDS and his biggest fault in ALCS was not driving in Cairo to tack on an extra run in top of the 8th in Game 5. Not a curse-=-just poor execution and tactic by Torre for having Jeter bunt Cairo over from 2B when Jeter could've hit away and easily gone to the right side of the infield. Good teams make their breaks. Losing teams fall short. The drama/story telling lies in the fact that many people covering the game don't speak about the little things that teams do/fail to do that cost them games and instead feed into the public some stories that make it more dramatic and fun to talk about. Fine if you want fantasy, but I'm a realist and when a better team wins, it's not breaking a curse or keeping the curse upon a team, it's just a better team winning because they do what it takes and the other one doesn't.
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Joe Hoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
You're watching Sports Night on CSC, so stick around.
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Post by Joe Hoya on Oct 21, 2004 14:09:04 GMT -5
I never thought I'd say this. but right on, RDF.
There is no curse. Get over it, YB. Your team lost. Take it like an adult and start thinking about football, or even better, college basketball (32 days 'til Temple).
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hoopsmccan
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Post by hoopsmccan on Oct 21, 2004 14:13:58 GMT -5
RDF - very nice post there. One thing I'll disagree with (from a different post, possibly a different thread) is the choking idea. Yes the NY media is blowing the choke angle out of proportion, but that's what they do. While Boston has the better team, I think it becomes a choke when the Yankees went up 3-0. Game 4 they got beat and if the rest of the games were like that one, I wouldn't consider it a choke job. I think of it as a choke they way they responded in game 5, 6 and especially 7. The Yankees played scared and extremely tight. Schilling pitched well in Game 6, but he did not have great stuff that game. Same with all those relief pitchers in Game 5 - there were pitches to hit and the Yankees did get good swings. On the flip side, when Brown put a fastball over the plate thigh high to Ortiz, he crushed it.
I think the Yankees let the pressure get to them and thats why I consider it a choke. I realize characterizing it as a choke takes something away from the Red Sox and I don't mean to do that, because the Sox did seize the opportunity when the Yankees started gagging.
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Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Jack on Oct 21, 2004 15:20:53 GMT -5
I know YB is just a bitter troll, and I look forward to whatever rally he is organizing for Steingrabber to sign 4 new pitchers and Beltran after which he will certainly seek credit for his role, but this Curse nonsense has got to stop. If you want to say the Yankees have been consistently better than the Red Sox and that the Sox have taken some agonizing defeats over the years, fine. If you want to say they are cursed by bad luck and bad decisions, that sounds about right. But if you actually believe that some ghosts are hurting the Sox and helping the Yankees, I really feel bad for you. It is probably too long for such a simple mind to read it, but if you want a real explanation for the origins of the so-called Curse of the Bambino, read Glenn Stout's essay linked here on the anti-semitic roots of the blaming of Harry Frazee for the downfall of the Red Sox. Then grow up and take your medicine like a man. sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2004/news/story?page=Curse041005
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2004 15:23:58 GMT -5
Jack comin' with the heat!!!
I take my cues on "the curse" from Bob Ryan. Say what you will about the man, he knows his Boston sports. He's been known to wisely say about any kind of curse that there WAS no curse discussed by folks in Boston or anywhere else for that matter until Dan Shaugnessy's book. From there, the media ran with it, famous Bostonian's talk about it all the time, etc. Thus, it took on a life of its own and has come to represent a lot more than it should.
After all, there's no such thing as a supernatural victory or defeat.
GO HOYAS!!!
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YB
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by YB on Oct 21, 2004 15:48:32 GMT -5
Well, regardless of what Jack "off" might believe, the facts speak for themselves: Pre-Babe Ruth, 5 titles; post-Babe, 0 titles. Including, by the way, this year. You can certainly debate the validity of a Curse, but for my part, I know the Babe won't let us down again this year.
For the record, I also believe that on the ESPN special, the Red Sox' curse was indeed deemed worse than that of the Cubbies.
I'm actually more of a general baseball fan (I was involved in the campaign to bring the Expos to Northern VA) than a pure Yankee fan- but since I grew up a Yanks fan, I do consider it my birthright to denegrade, tick off, taunt, and otherwise torture long-suffering Boston fans and really rub a little salt in their numerous and grievous wounds.
Believe me though, I'm really on the lighter side of Yankees fans.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Oct 21, 2004 15:51:29 GMT -5
Well, regardless of what Jack "off" might believe, the facts speak for themselves: Pre-Babe Ruth, 5 titles; post-Babe, 0 titles. Including, by the way, this year. You can certainly debate the validity of a Curse, but for my part, I know the Babe won't let us down again this year. I can't quite tell if you're joking YB, but there's this little something called "correlation does not imply causation" that is important to keep in mind. The Red Sox haven't won a title since WWI ended, either, since the Office of the Commissioner was created, or any number of things. It doesn't mean they caused it.
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YB
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by YB on Oct 21, 2004 15:56:12 GMT -5
Like I said, you can easily debate this topic, and it has been debated, but for my part, I will reserve a big high-5 for the Babe after he cruelly dashes the Sox' hopes again this year.
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nodak89
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Roy Roy Royyyyy!!!
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Post by nodak89 on Oct 21, 2004 16:13:22 GMT -5
Jack--Thanks for the link. It's quite a long read, but very interesting.
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Cambridge
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Canes Pugnaces
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Post by Cambridge on Oct 21, 2004 16:21:27 GMT -5
Yes, we won many championships before 1918...you won none. Nada. You don't win until the 20's...However after Frazee sells the team...We had a notoriously racist owner in Tom Yawkee... We were the last team to integrate...we could have had Robinson or Willie as both came to trials for the team, but no no, Tom Yawkee wanted an all vanilla team...
Under his leadership we were a consistant cellar dwelling team...I mean dead last...a joke...laughing stock...nobody even paid attention to the team
In 1967 the team went from near the bottom of the league the year before to a miracle run. Everyone had expected the same old thing. Instead, they shot up the league and challenged the Yanks. We crumbled in the series against the cards. Losing in game 7 when the cards hit three homeruns in one inning.
Red Sox fever was born however.
Since then we have been on and off. We had a couple good runs in the 70's. Another in the late 80s. Disappeared in the early 90s. Then reemerged in the mid-90s.
The only curse we've experienced is a long time owner who refused to integrate the team, creating a lasting legacy of racism that kept free agents away for years and years. The team was sold a couple years ago, and the front office is full of fresh faces and a new attitude. Theo Epstein being the GM. But the ripple effect of the previous ownership is only now beginning to diminish...
Most recently our curse is to be pitted in the same division as one of the greatest baseball teams in history.
The curse was first mentioned by a ny journalist who wrote a story on the 1986 WS in which he changed a prewritten article on the Red Sox supposed victory...to one about its loss. The theme of his article, had the red sox won, would have been that it was a team of destiny. Due to the fact they came back against the Angels in the ALDS. Hendu hitting a bomb. However, when the sox lost. He kept the theme of fate, but changed the tone to curse.
Danny boy picked it up and ran with it, selling millions of copies of his book. Then Fox really started pushing it when they picked up baseball.
But it has no basis in any reality whatsoever.
I am not afraid of this set of yankees. Nor have I been afraid all season. It's pitching and defense stupid. You taught us that. We ignored it in the past to our peril.
The media made up a tale of mystique and curses. Unfortunately your team began to beleive the fairy tale...instead of focusing on the real factors that led to four out five WS rings.
Hopefully, Steinbrenner has learned from this mistake, or you are in for a real curse. An owner who fails to understand that defense and pitching win rings. His teams of the late 80s and early 90s, before Cashman took the reigns, are evidence of what could happen when Cashman leaves the team and George has to make all the decisions...
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