Next Season

[ExcitableBoy]

mciguy said:

Well, as versatile as Jeff is his one major weakness was that he was not a true threat to create off the dribble once the defense clamped down. He was reliant on getting his points in those scenarios through the offensive scheme.

He did do most of those things on his "travel" against Vandy when the offensive scheme would have set up PEjr

[Deleted]

mciguy said:

sleepy said:

You can't say that losing them is better than losing Jeff, because of what we accomplished because you don't know what we will accomplish next year. Going into next season i think we are looking better than we did going into last season.

Thank you. Next season's team should be better.

Now if Jeff had come back it would have been as talented as any Hoya team ever IMO, but next season's squad isn't too shabby anyway.

I agree with you MCI, next year's team should be better. Last fall, we were very worried about the guards. John Wallace was decent, but who else was there. Sapp hadn't shown a whole lot his freshman year and we had no one else in the back court except a freshman, Jeremiah Rivers. As a matter of fact, more than one sports analyst felt that we were over rated Roy had come a long way, but if anyone had described him as a potential lottery pick, we would have all laughed. At the forward positions we had Green and Egerson, but behind them was a Freshman (Summers) and PE2, and he hadn't done much at Indiana. We had no reason to assume (especially after the first few games when we fell out of the top 25) that we would become as good as we were.

Bottom line, IMHO we are in a much stronger position going into next year. Wallace is a star, Roy is the best big man in the country and Summers is an emerging star as well. What I don't understand is why does everyone assume that Wattad and Nikita aren't going to contribute?? JT3 has a habit of developing his players. I saw that when he coached at Princeton.

Jerry

[Dhall]

rdf said:

I'll answer it in a simple way, we lost Owens, Cook, and Bowman, and the next year we see the Hoyas win the Big East, win the BET, and go to the Final Four.

I'd say losing Green is more of a blow then losing those 3 players. It's not to say I think that this upcoming year's team will be bad--just looking at the production without those 3 and to surpass what Jeff Green and Hoyas did this past season, next year's team will have to duplicate every achievement and win the National Championship--not an easy task.

We made the Final 4 because Jon Wallace hit a shot that Darrel Owens missed the year before against Florida. People think we just waltzed into the Final 4 this year - we got mighty lucky with Jeff's shot against Vandy and Jon's shot against UNC (and UNC going absolutely cold). Just like we were unlucky with Corey Brewer's shot against us and Owens' miss against Florida. I think we are in a better spot today than we were one year ago considering player departures, returning player development and potential impact freshmen.

[strummer8526]

Jeff was amazing, and when he felt like it, he put the team on his back to ensure a win. That being said, at the start of last year, he was borderline bad. After the Old Dominion game, I left saying to people that I thought he was asleep half the game. You never see that kind of passiveness from Dajuan or Pat, and while I haven't been blown away yet by Macklin, I think he could be a huge work in progress that could step in nicely next year. And no one has even mentioned Wallace or Sapp who ended up being the most under-rated backcourt in the country. As far as I'm concerned, Wallace is and always has been the decision-maker on the floor.

I think we come out of the gates a lot quicker this year. We don't lose to ODU. We don't float our way to a mediocre record after 10 games and fall out of the top 25. I'm more worried about the big games later in the year (like at Villanova): who takes that shot at the end? But with the talent that we have filling Jeff's one spot, I really believe one or maybe two guys will bear Jeff's load and then some.

I also don't think we have to win the BE Reg season or even the BE Tourney to necessarily compare the teams' successes. If we win the whole thing at the end, that's enough for me. This team will be better than last year's.

[DudeSlade]

The question as I saw it was whether we lost more this year or last, not whether we'll be better next year. As much as I love Jeff, I have to say losing the top 3 players off of our team was losing more. Bowman, Cook, and Owens combined for more than 30 points, 10 rebounds, 10 assists, 5 blocks, and 5 steals two years ago, plus all our veteran leadership. Even if you throw in Sead and Kenny, our loss this year does not come close to adding up to that. And as for the intangibles, which is the only way I can see it argued that we lost more this year, Roy provided as much leadership as Jeff did this year, Pat was our emotional center, Dajuan was the only one with the guts to hit the final shots or try to take over a game early in the year (Jeff did start doing that in the BE Tourney and NCAA Tourney) and I see no reason why he won't be up for it this year and be better suited to succeed. Jeff's bball IQ is what will be lacking most, and JTIII's security blanket, but the Alabama Rainmaker has a ton of experience as a 4 year starter and can provide that cool as we saw in the Tourney against UNC, and everybody except Chris and Austin have Final Four experience, which can't be substituted for or underestimated. Did we lose a lot this year? No doubt. But did we lose more than last year? I don't think so. And I think this team is better suited to continue excelling than they were last year. And I don't know what all this talk is about Macklin and Austin starting, I would consider it a major upset if Pat isn't our starter. He was arguably our second or third most important player down the stretch last year.

[RDF]

dhall said:

rdf said:

I'll answer it in a simple way, we lost Owens, Cook, and Bowman, and the next year we see the Hoyas win the Big East, win the BET, and go to the Final Four.

I'd say losing Green is more of a blow then losing those 3 players. It's not to say I think that this upcoming year's team will be bad--just looking at the production without those 3 and to surpass what Jeff Green and Hoyas did this past season, next year's team will have to duplicate every achievement and win the National Championship--not an easy task.

We made the Final 4 because Jon Wallace hit a shot that Darrel Owens missed the year before against Florida. People think we just waltzed into the Final 4 this year - we got mighty lucky with Jeff's shot against Vandy and Jon's shot against UNC (and UNC going absolutely cold). Just like we were unlucky with Corey Brewer's shot against us and Owens' miss against Florida. I think we are in a better spot today than we were one year ago considering player departures, returning player development and potential impact freshmen.

Well, we also won games because guys who should take the shots took them--and we won the BE and BET--which you just skipped to get into NCAA talk.

If it makes you feel better--the team with Owens, Bowman, and Cook beat Ohio State while last year's didn't.

I'll put it this way for you--would you take Bowman over Summers? I wouldn't. Would you take Owens over PE JR? I wouldn't. Would you take Cook over Sapp/Rivers? Maybe--and likely--but I'm glad Jeff and Wallace got the shots in our nip and tuck games and it wasn't Ashanti hoisting up a tough shot with Jeff open to his side or Wallace open. Teams that "Squeak by" know who to go to and what to do--and make plays. Teams that lose have opportunities and don't get ball to their best player for whatever reason. Rather squeak by with our best players taking shots then lose with a good open look from guy who should be 3rd or 4th option.

Would you take any of those 3 over Jeff Green? NO.

We can discuss whether '08 will be a better team then '07 but the discussion of losing Green compared to the SR's in '06 is not even in same stratosphere.

[Deleted]

Next year, we could BE better, and not actually DO better...

It takes more than just being a good team to get to the Final Four. It takes being hot at the right time, getting good matchups and getting a little (or a lot) lucky.

That said, I don't think this team will be a better team at the beginning of next year than it was at the end of last year. No way. Jeff Green's too important. But if we're better in February and March (and hopefully April) of 2008, I wouldn't be surprised.

And really, on November 19 last year (ODU), did anyone here think we were a Final Four team in the making? Of course not. mrsixer had us locked into the NIT. And he knows everything.

[SFHoya99]

1. I won't measure years based on post-season success or failure. The post-season is about peaking, matchups and a little bit of luck. We had a great post-season this last year and if we fail to achieve the same by a game or so, I don't think the team was necessarily worse, even if the results aren't quite as good.

2. We have much more returning talent than last year and in terms of number of question marks, much less. That said, I expect the transition to be more significant than last year. Why?

a. Jeff was the center of the offense. He was the hub and primary creator. Someone(s) will need to take this role and everyone on the team will have to adjust. We may go from a team that created through Jeff to one that creates through Chris. Who knows? But it will likely be a huge shift for the whole team.

b. Jeff was the go to guy. How does last year look if we lose versus ND in the BE and versus Vandy in Sweet Sixteen. It's not to say others aren't clutch, but he created when necessary. That's a tough role to assume.

We have the talent to make these changes. But they are more significant than losing Ashanti, Brandon and DJ, who were more or less finishers, not creators.

I don't know if we'll improve or not. We have the talent to do so. But there's a lot of work to be done.

[mapei]

Well put, SF. I always thought the offense went through Jeff, one way or another, plus he snagged key boards and played good D. The system will look different without him, though we do have loads of talent.

[strummer8526]

John Thompson III had already mentally prepared that he might lose Green, the Big East Player of the Year. Originally, when there was talk that both Green and center Roy Hibbert would bolt, Thompson III told ESPN.com that he could see the Hoyas going smaller and being quicker.

Now, the Hoyas will be a bit of a blend. They could go with a four-guard lineup with Hibbert since they will have a plethora of options with the return of Jonathan Wallace (who some would argue was this team's most important player at times), Jessie Sapp, Tyler Crawford and Jeremiah Rivers, let alone the addition of two heralded freshmen in Chris Wright and Austin Freeman. But don't discount the emergence of DaJuan Summers in a much more productive role and as well as Vernon Macklin and Patrick Ewing Jr., who is becoming one of the better glue guys in the Big East.

Sure, losing Green hurts the fluidity of the squad since he was the player that could be plugged into any spot -- whether it was passing, handling or scoring -- but the pieces are still in place for the Hoyas to be a major factor in the Big East and in contention for the national title. If the Hoyas can run their system as well as they did last season, they'll be doing just fine even without Green.

The Katz article saying that Green is gone also seems to indicate that he's still pretty high on us right now. Sure, the success we had this year does take some luck and some hot hands at the right times. There's no guarantee of that again. But I think everyone should expect us to be just as competitive as we would have been with Jeff.

Maybe some time in the Tournament, we have a late game shot that doesn't fall and everyone says, "Imagine if Jeff stuck around." I have faith that our team can work around a ONE person setback and have a very strong season.

[idhoya]

Losing SoCal was tough cause he was my man, but I digress. BB was inconsistent and Owens was part-time too. Leadership will be important this year cause Jeff was that last season. That said, J Wally and Roy will be caps with Jr., but DS will be teams best player. Freeman will be better than DJ, CW will be better than SoCal. Summers may already be better than BB cause he has the dog in his game that BB didn't seem to have.

[MCIGuy]

As good as Green was losing THREE seniors who started or at least played major minutes was a bigger loss. Bowman was the leading scorer, inconsistent or not. Cook was the main perimeter threat down the stretch and simply on fire down the stretch. He was THE go-to guy on the perimeter. Owens was a deadly perimeter scoring threat coming off the bench and had more scoring outbursts than Ewing. No offense to Jeff but unless he's Pat Ewing the original, Alonzo, Reggie, Sleepy, AI and possibly even Sweetney (who led the Hoyas in virtually every category) , his departure is not bigger than that of three highly important senior players in terms of overcoming all of his statistical output.

[youngjeezy]

katz, from his chat, puts louisville #1 preseason in the big east and us #2... not too shabby, even without jeff.

[sleepy]

That how i feel MCI, i think people tend to forget that both Roy and Jeff were inconsistent half to half. Maybe not game to game, but i dont remeber how many games i was begging Jeff Green to play better at half time, and he usually did.
We had three games last year that were decided by game winning shots, maybe we wont need a single one next year!!

Hey, we were two last year, that didnt turn out to bad.

[RDF]

mciguy said:

As good as Green was losing THREE seniors who started or at least played major minutes was a bigger loss. Bowman was the leading scorer, inconsistent or not. Cook was the main perimeter threat down the stretch and simply on fire down the stretch. He was THE go-to guy on the perimeter. Owens was a deadly perimeter scoring threat coming off the bench and had more scoring outbursts than Ewing. No offense to Jeff but unless he's Pat Ewing the original, Alonzo, Reggie, Sleepy, AI and possibly even Sweetney (who led the Hoyas in virtually every category) , his departure is not bigger than that of three highly important senior players in terms of overcoming all of his statistical output.

I think this year's team can be a great one, but there is no way in hell I think losing Jeff Green is less significant then losing Owens, Bowman, and Cook. Stats or not--I go by results--and last year's team took off when Jeff Green stepped up his play to a level that resulted in him winning BE Player of the Year. You just don't replace kids like that--you might statistically and this year's team could be a great one--but until it proves it on the court--I'll go with Green over guys who were replaced rather easily--Dajuan Summers was better then Bowman the minute he stepped on the court--he's more assertive and consistent in terms of effort. When you have a SR player and you are watching a game and thinking "Which Brandon will show up" that says it all.

Cook and Owens improved a great deal-and Cook was wonderful his SR year--but Owens was replaced by PE JR and JR did some things Owens couldn't--defend the post for one, energy. The thing with those SR's--they were often passive and not aggressive--Summers, Ewing, etc.. were assertive and brought energy and results proved their impact helped.

You can talk about Iverson, Zo, anyone who wasn't involved with those Ewing Era teams--in high regard as they were all time talents, but Green led this team back to a place that Ewing took us 3 times. And Jeff did lead--if he had bad game last year--this team lost--if he had his average or higher-they won. We won games Roy was off, or Wallace was off, or Dajuan was off, but when Jeff was "off"--we didn't win. You don't replace that as easily as you do 3 guys (1 who brought his game about 20% of the time, 1 who was passive but talented, and another who had a great SR year) who were role players.

[GIGAFAN99]

sleepy said:

That how i feel MCI, i think people ten to forget that both Roy and Jeff were inconsistent half to half. Maybe not game to game, but i dont remeber how many games i was begging Jeff Green to play better at half time, and he usually did.
We had three games last year that were decided by game winning shots, maybe we wont need a single one next year!!

I think people forget next year is not "this year without Jeff."

This year we needed Jeff to make up for all that we lost in those three seniors and were trying to replace with freshmen and backups getting used to new roles. Next year we don't need him nearly as much.

We return an entire backcourt including the bench and add two All-Americans. And or froncourt is merely two returning starters including the only lottery pick to return to school, a senior with tons of experience, and a former McDonald's AA with a year experience and an offseason.

But that's all.

This team is not getting enough credit for its balance. for example Sapp was our assists leader, not Jeff. This team had a lot of guys who could create. And yes Jeff was our go to guy and hit some huge shots but Wallace drained the UNC three and the play to ice BC was Roy to Ewing.

This team won 30 games mostly because it was clearly the best TEAM on the floor (22 double digit wins for goodness sakes!). Don't expect that to change even without Jeff.

[sleepy]

Maybe losing Jeff will make this team stronger? Better, idk, but stronger i think so. I think losing Cook, Bowman, and Owens made this team stronger last year. And when i say stronger i mean their will to win, which is the reason they won the close games last year. I think if Jeff had stayed they would have been better, but weaker, he WAS their secruity blanket, and sometimes you just have to let go of it. Of course had he stayed they probably wouldnt have needed the strength but w.e

[MCIGuy]

RDF, we sort of disagree here.

1)The team turned its corner AFTER the loss at Pitt. That is when the streak began (at Rutgers) and for the first two games the Hoyas won during that streak Green was still virtually invisible. And for the first half of that long stretch of victories it was Roy who won Big East Player of the Week twice, not Jeff. And going into that Villanova game at Villanova it was still up in the air (according to the media) which Hoya player would have the best chance at winning BE MVP.

2)I will not penalize Zo, Sweets or AI for playing on badly put-together teams, no-talent teams and/or badly coached teams. And, hell, if AI had stayed three seasons I'm sure he and Page would have taken the Hoyas to the Final Four. I will also not penalize AI and especially Zo for playing in a time in which the national competeition was actually tougher than what we saw last season.

3)The Hoyas lost a slew of games the past two seasons when Roy had a bad game or Wallace had a bad game. I recall this because fans would come on these boards complaining that those two weren't good enough, etc, etc after a bad outing in a defeat. You're right though that when Jeff had an off game there was usually more of a chance that the Hoyas would lose. But in part, in part, that was because III would keep his butt on the floor for 35 minutes regardless of his play. If, say, Roy wasn't playing well, III would pull that trigger fast and go with his quick lineup (a lineup he was most used and comfortable with considering the type of personnel he had at Princeton). Having Jeff on the floor for 30 plus minutes and getting little production from him would obviously have a more detrimental effect on the team than a game in which Roy played an unproductive fifteen minutes. Jeff was III's security blanket and that could be good as well as bad. It was bad when Jeff did a no-show against Ohio State and III apparently said nothing. Compare that to the Boston College game in which III had a "little chat" before half with Roy concerning his lack of aggresion. From all reports a similar conversation never went down with Jeff in the Final Four. As a result we had Jeff taking six shots in 30 plus minutes and his coach never demanding him to look for his shot more. When Jeff plays like that that's virtually like deadweight taking up 30 plus valuable minutes on the floor. What team can overcome that when playing a highly regarded opponent?

[NCHoya]

To me, the answer has a lot to do with the overall talent/experience on the team.

Losing Jeff will probably not hurt as much as losing the 3 seniors 2 years ago. We saw early in the season that our lack of cohesion was costing us games to teams in November and December that we would have dominated in March.

This upcoming season, with the talent/experience coming back, we will not have those early season growing pains and we will get off to a better start. Results speak volumes, but to me post season success, as others have stated, is really dependent on luck and match-ups. Things just went right this year and I would not give Green all the credit just like I don't blame the 2006 Trio for losing to Florida on Brewer's circus shot.

So IMO we lost more 2 years ago but that is solely dependent on the make-up of this incoming team and the confidence I have in their leadership, not a knock on Jeff Green.

[uptownathlete]

REAL GOOD POINT GIGA...people need to think about that.
10 losses though??? you can't be serious
And someone else pointed out that while we'd all love to have Jeff back, him leaving can be a positive thing. A lot of the younger players get more time now, and how would everyone act when we lose Roy, Jeff, Jon, and Tyler all in the same season. And as far as who takes the last shot...Wallace is a way better shooter.
Furthermore...what team doesn't have to be lucky to win a NC?...