Hibbert Versus Green

[the_way]

Just ask JTIII.

Coach has said many a time, he is most comfortable when Jeff Green is on the court, and when Jeff is not on the court, he is worried.

Jeff Green is the glue to this team (along with Jon Wallace). JTIII has gone on record and said Jeff Green is the smartest player he has ever coached.

You cannot, cannot measure Jeff Green by box scores and stats.

He won big east player of the year with stats that aren't too impressive for that type of an award. There is a reason why.

Like others have said before, there have been times when Hibbert has been negated or simply can't keep up against quicker teams, and we still win.

With Jeff, if he isn't scoring,he is helping initiate and run the offense, getting a key rebound there, a key assist here, being a mentor to Summers and being leader of this team.

Jeff Green hands down.

My thinking is that Jeff will leave and Roy stays. If Roy stays and improves like has over each year, I think he can be the #1 pick next year.

If that happens, Jon Wallace will hold this team together and Roy should improve his game. But there will be a huge void left by Jeff if he leaves, and two freshman guards, as great as they may be, aren't going to replace that.

[Locker]

Speaking of things that can't get measured by stats...how much do you think our shooters would miss Roy's immense screens?

It's possible Jeff is more important to our offense than Roy. But Roy is the more important piece on defense by a pretty wide margin.

[TBird41]

nchoya said:

Well put Buffalo and SFHoya.

All I care about are results and what I saw this year and last is when Green struggles we stink and when Roy struggles we usually find a a way to win. We need look no further than the OSU game, Roy was fantastic but we lost going away because Green had a tough outing. There are several other examples from this past season we could look at with the same results. Also, Green is the man with game on the line, not Roy. When all you look at is results, to me, there is no discussion who our MVP is

If Dajuan shoots 50% from the floor instead of 1-10, we would have beat Ohio St. As much blame for that loss can be laid at his feet as at Jeff's.

[blueandgray]

While Green may have been our MVP last year... that may not necessarily be next year should they both stay. For the record, in our 7 losses last year... in 5 of those losses Green had 6 or fewer field goal attempts (saving the last of those games for Ohio St.). I'm not sure whether it was great D that stopped him, or simply Green stopping himself... but the way Hibbs ended the season... makes me think that Hibbs would be the "go to" guy.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

there's great arguments for both. Lucily we won't have to choose cause we'll have both back.

[HealyHoya]

Hibbs.

[hoyatmf]

blueandgray, it seems like you are saying roy is or could be the team mvp if both come back, but your stats suggest the opposite. in just about every game that jeff has not played well or not taken "enough" shots, we lost. ohio state is the most glaring example. in that game roy had one of the best games of his career. that suggests to me that jeff, rather than roy was the dfference in this and many other games. we have won when roy hasn't played well, but not when jeff has played poorly.

i really think this answer depends on the development of other players. obviously jeff has a great basketball iq, some of which cannot be taught, but it can be developed over time. if dajuan and others can develop some of jeff's basketball instincts then that would certainly lessen the blow of jeff's possible departure.

now i am going to undermine everything i said before by saying that "you can't teach or develop height." no one in the big east has a 7'2" ravenous beast. that's what roy is when he wants to be. also noteworthy is roy's performance in the postseason. he was great down the stretch (not that jeff wasn't and wasn't better), but his height creates so many match-up problems and creates opportunities for others that jeff's game does not. still, jeff is and has been the most important player on our team.

i really think it's impossible to replace what either of these players bring to our team when they play their best. still, i think jeff's all around skills and leadership can more easily be replicated by committee (hopefully). roy's height and defensive presence cannot. keep in mind, this also assumes that neither player develops any further. as many have said, roy's potential is greater that jeff's at this point, so perhaps blueandgrey is right. if jeff leaves and roy plays like the top pick in the 2008 draft (i.e., gets better), i think that will certainly soften the blow. go hoyas!!!

[HealyHoya]

Whether Dajuan, Ewing, Freeman, etc. can and/or will develop skills comparable to Green is debateable. While it seems unlikely, it could happen. Alternatively, we might find a combo of two players who can approximate Green's contributions -- both on the stat sheet and off. Further, III can employ some changes in system and strategy to address Green's absence.

What I can guarantee you right now, without hesitation, is that no one on the team or coming in next year is 7'2". No one will grow to be 7'2". No one can do what Roy does. No one.

If I have to pick one (and that hurts my brain), I pick Roy.

It's unlikely we can replace Jeff next year. It is impossible to replace Roy.

[hoyatmf]

what he said!

[hoyalove4ever]

buffalohoya said:

Green in a landslide.

He makes EVERYONE better, including Roy. I love Roy, but watch what happens when teams don't have to worry about Green and can collapse a zillion defenders on Roy every time down the court. Green's the PERFECT fit for the offense at its most important position, and I don't care what any of you say about another year of development for Summers or Macklin or Ewing or anyone who might fill Green's role, there's ZERO CHANCE IN HELL they provide what Green does.

Losing Roy would hurt bad, but the team would still have its most dynamic player. I've seen the offense (and defense) play well with Roy on the bench. Can't think of many times I've said the same thing with Green out. I mean no disrespect to Roy, who has become one of my favorite Hoyas ever and has easily developed as much (if not more) than any Hoya has over the course of his career on The Hilltop, but Green brings so much to this team its ridiculous.

The real problem is they work so well together in tandem, and one picks up the other (and the team) when the other is down, that losing EITHER of them is going to have a huge impact. The argument could EASILY be made either way. Personal preference, I guess... and I prefer Green.

I agree that Jeff is the perfect player for the JT III Princeton offense, but I disagree that Jeff is clearly the one we'd want back. Even when Jeff is not nearly on top of his game (i.e. NCAAs v. BC & OSU), Roy simply changes the entire game. It's a very close call and in reality we'd be lucky to get either Jeff or Roy back.

[blueandgray]

hoyatmf said:

blueandgray, it seems like you are saying roy is or could be the team mvp if both come back, but your stats suggest the opposite. in just about every game that jeff has not played well or not taken "enough" shots, we lost. ohio state is the most glaring example. in that game roy had one of the best games of his career. that suggests to me that jeff, rather than roy was the dfference in this and many other games. we have won when roy hasn't played well, but not when jeff has played poorly.

i really think this answer depends on the development of other players. obviously jeff has a great basketball iq, some of which cannot be taught, but it can be developed over time. if dajuan and others can develop some of jeff's basketball instincts then that would certainly lessen the blow of jeff's possible departure.

now i am going to undermine everything i said before by saying that "you can't teach or develop height." no one in the big east has a 7'2" ravenous beast. that's what roy is when he wants to be. also noteworthy is roy's performance in the postseason. he was great down the stretch (not that jeff wasn't and wasn't better), but his height creates so many match-up problems and creates opportunities for others that jeff's game does not. still, jeff is and has been the most important player on our team.

i really think it's impossible to replace what either of these players bring to our team when they play their best. still, i think jeff's all around skills and leadership can more easily be replicated by committee (hopefully). roy's height and defensive presence cannot. keep in mind, this also assumes that neither player develops any further. as many have said, roy's potential is greater that jeff's at this point, so perhaps blueandgrey is right. if jeff leaves and roy plays like the top pick in the 2008 draft (i.e., gets better), i think that will certainly soften the blow. go hoyas!!!

Hoyaatmf... what a well written reply.... i could never find an article this insightful on the topic at hand anywhere else. I think the point I was trying to make about Green is that at times, he could disappear and the team never knew when that might happen. Yes, at many points in the season, he carried on his back by playing huge in final five minutes of games, ND (his best game of the year), BC, and Vandy, but with that... how do you explain going 1 for 2 from the field against ODU in game 3 Of the season, then attempting only 2 fieldgoal attempts in the first 35 minutes vs OSU. I guess my point is that if Jeff has a weakness... its that he can disappear and be too unselfish. I don't think Roy has that problem.... Our problem with Roy is making sure he gets enough touches... which is an issue that should be easily remedied.

That said, I totally agree that replacing either one of them will require a major adjustment. If we do get to keep either of them however, I do believe that after a few hick-ups early on (much like we sustained this past year), the team would gel, everything would materialize, and we would be one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the country.

[sleepy]

i disagree when you say that Green the team never knew when he was gonna disappear. The only times he wasn't effective was when ewing and/or summers weren't contributing offensivly. Once Summers and Ewing started being offensive threats, Green couldnt be stopped. If only one of them had had a decent game against Ohio St i think the game would have been changed drasticly.
That being said i think we would both miss them both the same. I think we will be just as succesfull with only green as we would be with only hibbert, because III will make the proper adjustments for either one leaving

[mrsixer123]

its roy hands hands down! why? b/c we have a text book PG coming in next year who will set up roy, jwall, and mark consistently. jeff was so valuable to the team this year b/c he could create his own shot off the dribble, and assist with the ball handling responsibilities, but there were games where teams were able limit his production with the right scheme.

roy on the other hand struggled when we couldn't get him the ball, and that will not be an issue next year. the difference between jeff and roy in terms of impacting the game is one relies on someone else to get him the ball while the other does not.

it is much easier to replace a dominate swing forward than it is to replace a dominate 7 footer. IMO, mark will fill jeff's void rather easily and actually make roy's life easier as he will stretch the D along with jwall off of the dribble penetration by chris.

roy gave this years #1 nba pick 19 and 6 while jeff was held to single digits in scoring

[mrsixer123]

theway said:

Just ask JTIII.

Coach has said many a time, he is most comfortable when Jeff Green is on the court, and when Jeff is not on the court, he is worried.

Jeff Green is the glue to this team (along with Jon Wallace). JTIII has gone on record and said Jeff Green is the smartest player he has ever coached.

You cannot, cannot measure Jeff Green by box scores and stats.

He won big east player of the year with stats that aren't too impressive for that type of an award. There is a reason why.

Like others have said before, there have been times when Hibbert has been negated or simply can't keep up against quicker teams, and we still win.

With Jeff, if he isn't scoring,he is helping initiate and run the offense, getting a key rebound there, a key assist here, being a mentor to Summers and being leader of this team.

Jeff Green hands down.

My thinking is that Jeff will leave and Roy stays. If Roy stays and improves like has over each year, I think he can be the #1 pick next year.

If that happens, Jon Wallace will hold this team together and Roy should improve his game. But there will be a huge void left by Jeff if he leaves, and two freshman guards, as great as they may be, aren't going to replace that.

the fact that u acknowledge jwall is the "co-glue" of the team answers the question of who is easier to replace

[mrsixer123]

tbird41 said:

nchoya said:

Well put Buffalo and SFHoya.

All I care about are results and what I saw this year and last is when Green struggles we stink and when Roy struggles we usually find a a way to win. We need look no further than the OSU game, Roy was fantastic but we lost going away because Green had a tough outing. There are several other examples from this past season we could look at with the same results. Also, Green is the man with game on the line, not Roy. When all you look at is results, to me, there is no discussion who our MVP is

If Dajuan shoots 50% from the floor instead of 1-10, we would have beat Ohio St. As much blame for that loss can be laid at his feet as at Jeff's.

how in the hell can u place the same amount of blame on a freshman as a battle tested junior who was the best player in a major conference?!!!!??!!!!!!!!

on the biggest stage, against the #1 nba pick, roy dropped 19 and jeff produced 9!!!! i was at the game and it was transparent who had onions and who did not

i nominate this for dumbest post of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mrsixer123]

healyhoya said:

Whether Dajuan, Ewing, Freeman, etc. can and/or will develop skills comparable to Green is debateable. While it seems unlikely, it could happen. Alternatively, we might find a combo of two players who can approximate Green's contributions -- both on the stat sheet and off. Further, III can employ some changes in system and strategy to address Green's absence.

What I can guarantee you right now, without hesitation, is that no one on the team or coming in next year is 7'2". No one will grow to be 7'2". No one can do what Roy does. No one.

If I have to pick one (and that hurts my brain), I pick Roy.

It's unlikely we can replace Jeff next year. It is impossible to replace Roy.

what a masterful post...................

[sleepy]

i think a major problem in replacing jeff would be to find a new go-to guy. Hibbert is not going to be able to create his own shot (if he doesnt catch it near the block) when the clock is winding down. The only possible option that i see would be Dajuan Summers, but he really hasnt proven he has a consistent mid-range jumper that Jeff used to get us out of numerous tight spost this year. If Jeff does leave, im sure we will find somebody to take over that role, but i do not feel they will be nearly as effective as Green was.

[mrsixer123]

sleepy said:

i think a major problem in replacing jeff would be to find a new go-to guy. Hibbert is not going to be able to create his own shot (if he doesnt catch it near the block) when the clock is winding down. The only possible option that i see would be Dajuan Summers, but he really hasnt proven he has a consistent mid-range jumper that Jeff used to get us out of numerous tight spots this year. If Jeff does leave, I'm sure we will find somebody to take over that role, but i do not feel they will be nearly as effective as Green was.

u ever hear of a guy named jonathan wallace?

if not, let me introduce u to him. he hit the biggest shot in recent hoya history against unc as if he was playing horse in his back yard, and he will be even better next year b/c he wont have to take on the primary ball handling responsibilities.

imo, no one in hoya history can claim their bball IQ is superior to jwall

jwall = juan dixon

[sleepy]

Wallace definitely has proven he can make clutch shots, but that doesn't mean we can depend on him to break his man off the dribble everytime we need a game winning basket. Don't get me wrong, I love Wallace, but i would rather have Jeff Green with the ball in his hands down by one, than Wallace. I just don't think wallace will ever be the go to guy if we dont need a three pointer.

Oh and im pretty sure JTIII has already made it clear that Jeff Green has superior bball IQ than Jwall

[mrsixer123]

sleepy said:

Wallace definitely has proven he can make clutch shots, but that doesn't mean we can depend on him to break his man off the dribble everytime we need a game winning basket. Don't get me wrong, I love Wallace, but i would rather have Jeff Green with the ball in his hands down by one, than Wallace. I just don't think wallace will ever be the go to guy if we dont need a three pointer.

Oh and im pretty sure JTIII has already made it clear that Jeff Green has superior bball IQ than Jwall

let me introduce u to another guy; his name is chris wright, and he will have the ball in his hands most of the time. as a result, jwall will not have to break anyone down as chris will take care of that and allow jwall to spot up hit the clutch shot