Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 4, 2007 9:55:51 GMT -5
Jessie will remain as starter, as Jack says. And Chris comes in BEHIND Jeremiah---trust me. Chris will provide a huge lift, but he will likely not start as a Freshman. Could not agree more. I just can't comprehend how people are burying someone who got key minutes on a Final Four run. Coach obviously trusts him as one of the best defenders and ball handlers on the team -- as a freshman. I think a summer of workouts and another offseason learning the system he'll be getting a ton of minutes next year.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 4, 2007 9:58:11 GMT -5
I can't see Macklin and Roy on the floor at the same time unless Mack really increases his skill set. Do you mean Macklin's offensive skills? What if, rather than Macklin increasing his skill set, Roy does? If he becomes a constant threat to hit the elbow jumper, JT3 could use him as a slightly more traditional Princeton center (as I understand it) and Macklin could play the "Roy" role. Thoughts? And for everyone expecting Crawford to have a bigger role in the rotation next year because he "started the first game" this year should realize that he got 8 minutes a game this year, when there were only three other guards on the roster. Next year, we will have more depth with Freeman and Wright added in. And if Baby Doc adds a decent jumper, he'll be a better version of Tyler--better handle, taller, better defender, equal rebounder and a better passer. Crawford also spent a good four months packing 40 pounds back onto his frame after mono. I think this past year can't really be a good indication of what his role will be. Could be more, could be less.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Apr 4, 2007 10:01:17 GMT -5
Gotta agree with Madge - I think Reynolds ended up a bit overrated - but the idea that a score-first freshman screws you is pretty absurd - Nova didn't have much talent, and a Reynolds-like player in our offense surrounded by our talent would be much more efficient.
Two more points for GIGA - I think it is a bit risky to assume that Macklin will have a viable faceup jumper next year, since right now he has no shot at all. Also, while Freeman's handle isn't as good as our points', he did regularly play PG for DeMatha and has a good handle for a 2. He wouldn't worry me at all teaming with Sapp/Wallace/Rivers against a press.
Assuming Jeff leaves:
Wallace Sapp Summers Ewing Roy
Four of those are locks, while there could be a surprise in Ewing's spot.
Off the bench (in order of minutes):
Freeman Macklin Rivers Wright
I don't think Crawford will get consistent minutes. Rivers/Wright is tough to predict too, since each is far stronger on one side of the ball than the other.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 4, 2007 10:04:08 GMT -5
Jessie will remain as starter, as Jack says. And Chris comes in BEHIND Jeremiah---trust me. Chris will provide a huge lift, but he will likely not start as a Freshman. Totally agree. I'll say it again, starting 6'0 freshmen guards who can score get you 9-7. and a first round loss (I'm looking at you 'Nova). quote] As ridiculous as your mindnumbing defenses of Esherick. Villanova doesn't make the BET without Scottie Reynolds. I agree that Sapp will start, but by the end of the season, Wright will be an important part of the rotation, and may see the most minutes. But the idea that an otherwise 13-3 Big East team would be 9-7 if it started a freshman is silly. When he is ready he will play. Should Jonathan Edwards have played ahead of Alonzo his freshman year? Alonzo was a consensus top recruit and a man amongst boys. We also played a system that put a premium on athleticism, aggression and defensive intensity. I'd say those are currencies Alonzo has always been flush with. As much as we like Chris he is barely scraping into the top 50. He is small, wiry and hasn't played in any real offensive system in highschool. He is pretty much the only source of offense on his team, so they play iso 99% of the time. It's going to take a little while to "break" him and have him playing in the flow of a motion offense. Not saying he's not going to get minutes, but to expect him to step in and take over and offense or even play significant minutes seems a little outlandishly optimistic. I hope you are right, I just don't see it happening.
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YB
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Post by YB on Apr 4, 2007 10:07:06 GMT -5
the shoot-happy, bad-passing TO prone Summers Could you be any more complimentary? Look, Summers clearly developed well over the course of the season and I'm really glad he's on the team! But that said, in the first half of the year he had a 1:20 ast:turnover ratio. That was fact, and was pretty bad. But he got better. Hopefully he and Rivers work on their passing all summer. Every day, take a basketball everywhere and pass it to each other all day. It's how Jerome Williams got such a great handle- he took it everywhere and dribbled everywhere. If Jeff does leave, Summers cannot fill his spot- he is nowhere near the passer Jeff is. Yet. I hope he works on it and becomes better tho. I know we are always quick to anoint the new recruits as the "chosen ones", but remember these guys are still only going to be freshmen who are going to need the same year-1.5 years to learn the system everyone else does. And no, they will not be starting barring injuries (as was the case this year). So go easy on the freshman expectations. The biggest leap players make is between their freshman and soph years in III's system; look at Wallace and Sapp as good examples. Sapp had a great ast-TO ratio this year, he clearly worked on it and finally clicked. Expect the same of the froshes. They will contribute, but mainly learn their first year. 2nd year, they'll be diesel.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Apr 4, 2007 10:12:52 GMT -5
Jessie will remain as starter, as Jack says. And Chris comes in BEHIND Jeremiah---trust me. Chris will provide a huge lift, but he will likely not start as a Freshman. Totally agree. I'll say it again, starting 6'0 freshmen guards who can score get you 9-7. and a first round loss (I'm looking at you 'Nova). quote] As ridiculous as your mindnumbing defenses of Esherick. Villanova doesn't make the BET without Scottie Reynolds. I agree that Sapp will start, but by the end of the season, Wright will be an important part of the rotation, and may see the most minutes. But the idea that an otherwise 13-3 Big East team would be 9-7 if it started a freshman is silly. When he is ready he will play. Should Jonathan Edwards have played ahead of Alonzo his freshman year? Was Jonathan Edwards the #1 three-point shooter in the league for a Final Four team? Did I miss that part? Scottie Reynolds started because he HAD TO START. If we start Wright we're basically saying that he is so incredible that he actually will be an improvement on either of our entire starting backcourt that returns from a Final Four Big East championship team. I'd say "probably not." Points though for the ridiculous analogy of a back-up on a mediocre team versus the starters on a 30-7 top 5 team. Wright might play but bump someone out of the starting lineup? If you think so that's fine. We'll just disagree.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Apr 4, 2007 10:13:03 GMT -5
Good to see that you are sticking to the myth that players need 1.5 years to learn the system, YB. Also glad to know that despite the lack of evidence,you still hold that Summers became a starter due to injuries.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 4, 2007 10:17:47 GMT -5
I think it's clear that Summers is an excellent player. It's also clear Summers was not the starting SF at the start of the season. He became a starter via a confluence of improvement, injuries & transfers. The precise mixture and influence of each is speculative at best. Clearly all played into the result, but it's hard to determine which was really at the root of it all.
As for the 1.5 years. That's what JTIII has said over and over. If you want to call our Final Four coach a liar, be my guest.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Apr 4, 2007 10:18:19 GMT -5
Good to see that you are sticking to the myth that players need 1.5 years to learn the system, YB. Also glad to know that despite the lack of evidence,you still hold that Summers became a starter due to injuries. Summers started because he earned the spot, but here's the thing: that spot was OPEN. Egerson had laid claim to it but he wasn't the incumbent from the previous year or anything. He was a few games into the season. That's a lot different than saying a Final Four starter is going to get replaced. I agree if Jeff leaves, Freeman could easily start. I do not agree that we'd somehow displace our starters in favor of the freshmen.
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YB
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Post by YB on Apr 4, 2007 10:26:42 GMT -5
If Jeff leaves, rebounding will be a big issue. So will passing. Ewing will get first crack at it, but don't be surprised if Crawford gets it. Why? For his minutes, he rebounds like a beast. Every time he came into the game, he made his presence felt. Defensively stalwart and a good rebounder, and a good shooter to boot. Not a good passer- but the team as a whole needs to work on that.
That is, if Jeff leaves. If Jeff stays, we'll have the deepest bench in the BE.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 4, 2007 10:26:57 GMT -5
Do you mean Macklin's offensive skills? What if, rather than Macklin increasing his skill set, Roy does? If he becomes a constant threat to hit the elbow jumper, JT3 could use him as a slightly more traditional Princeton center (as I understand it) and Macklin could play the "Roy" role. Thoughts? Great point. The only issue with this is that Roy is unquestionably more effective down low. Putting him on the perimeter or high post would likely reduce some of that effectiveness. Macklin would have to be a significantly better option than other players for this to be the best option for major periods of time.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 4, 2007 10:29:23 GMT -5
Egerson only started 3 games. He played in 13. Dajuan started the Fairfield game (the 4th game of the season) and started EVERY GAME AFTER THAT. Egerson got a lot of minutes, but he was not the starter. So let's all stop perpetuating the myth that Summers only started because Egerson transferred.
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YB
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Post by YB on Apr 4, 2007 10:35:14 GMT -5
Good to see that you are sticking to the myth that players need 1.5 years to learn the system, YB. Also glad to know that despite the lack of evidence,you still hold that Summers became a starter due to injuries. Huh? Lack of evidence? Crawford and Edge started this season! Crawford only stopped starting after the 3rd game due to severe strep that actually required home rest for a week, and he only regained the weight lost several months later. Edge started until just before he transferred. Summers wasn't ready at first. III's system relys on reads which are more complex than any HS player has done. It takes time to learn how to do that. I know you always want to pile expectations on the new, talented players- but that will likely never be the way with this Coach. As he puts it, you have to be what you are. Perhaps even more important than learning the offense and how to pass- pretty complex in itself- is learning the defense. Summers was an awful defensive player until mid to late this year. We got better and started winning when Summers and Rivers and Ewing figured out how to play the amoeba zone. Remember, by the rankings we were much better defensively than offensively. Just a thought. Ultimately, I hope and expect everyone improves their weaknesses significantly over the offseason. Summers needs to work on passing, that is his weakness. Rivers needs a jumpshot. Roy fouls too much and Jeff doesn't assert himself enough. Lots for everyone to work on. Constant improvement, that's what III always preaches.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Apr 4, 2007 10:37:04 GMT -5
I think it's clear that Summers is an excellent player. It's also clear Summers was not the starting SF at the start of the season. He became a starter via a confluence of improvement, injuries & transfers. As for the 1.5 years. That's what JTIII has said over and over. If you want to call our Final Four coach a liar, be my guest. Transfers obviously had nothing to do with Summers starting, since he moved into the lineup well before that - your memory is failing you, YB. It seems pretty clear that neither did injuries, since Sapp replaced Crawford. As for the 1.5 years, my understanding is that was starting from scratch. I don't believe it takes that long with 80% of the team already knows the offense. GIGA - I agree that no freshman will be starting next year, at least not early in the season. Just refuting the point that Summers only took the job because of injuries and/or transfers.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 4, 2007 10:37:10 GMT -5
Do you mean Macklin's offensive skills? What if, rather than Macklin increasing his skill set, Roy does? If he becomes a constant threat to hit the elbow jumper, JT3 could use him as a slightly more traditional Princeton center (as I understand it) and Macklin could play the "Roy" role. Thoughts? Great point. The only issue with this is that Roy is unquestionably more effective down low. Putting him on the perimeter or high post would likely reduce some of that effectiveness. Macklin would have to be a significantly better option than other players for this to be the best option for major periods of time. I don't see it happening for long stretches in games, but it wouldn't surprise me to see it as a wrinkle that JT3 adds next year if Jeff leaves. It would help alleviate the problem of Macklin not getting minutes despite deserving an increase in playing time b/c he's stuck behind Roy. And I'm pretty sure that Jeff got to work in the post when Roy was on the floor, so it wouldn't preclude Roy from going to the blocks either. One way the Hoyas got the ball to Roy this year, especially against zones, was for him to post, head to the perimeter and then feed him as he cut back to the post--they could do something similar if Macklin was on the opposite post and Roy was playing the Jeff role.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 4, 2007 10:41:39 GMT -5
Good to see that you are sticking to the myth that players need 1.5 years to learn the system, YB. Also glad to know that despite the lack of evidence,you still hold that Summers became a starter due to injuries. Huh? Lack of evidence? Crawford and Edge started this season! Crawford only stopped starting after the 3rd game due to severe strep that actually required home rest for a week, and he only regained the weight lost several months later. Edge started until just before he transferred. Summers wasn't ready at first. III's system relys on reads which are more complex than any HS player has done. It takes time to learn how to do that. I know you always want to pile expectations on the new, talented players- but that will likely never be the way with this Coach. As he puts it, you have to be what you are. Perhaps even more important than learning the offense and how to pass- pretty complex in itself- is learning the defense. Summers was an awful defensive player until mid to late this year. We got better and started winning when Summers and Rivers and Ewing figured out how to play the amoeba zone. Remember, by the rankings we were much better defensively than offensively. Just a thought. Ultimately, I hope and expect everyone improves their weaknesses significantly over the offseason. Summers needs to work on passing, that is his weakness. Rivers needs a jumpshot. Roy fouls too much and Jeff doesn't assert himself enough. Lots for everyone to work on. Constant improvement, that's what III always preaches. Egerson only started the first three games of the season. He did not start his final 8 games in a Hoya uniform. guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2006-2007/teamcume.html#TEAM.IND
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YB
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Post by YB on Apr 4, 2007 10:47:42 GMT -5
I think it's clear that Summers is an excellent player. It's also clear Summers was not the starting SF at the start of the season. He became a starter via a confluence of improvement, injuries & transfers. As for the 1.5 years. That's what JTIII has said over and over. If you want to call our Final Four coach a liar, be my guest. Transfers obviously had nothing to do with Summers starting, since he moved into the lineup well before that - your memory is failing you, YB. It seems pretty clear that neither did injuries, since Sapp replaced Crawford. As for the 1.5 years, my understanding is that was starting from scratch. I don't believe it takes that long with 80% of the team already knows the offense. GIGA - I agree that no freshman will be starting next year, at least not early in the season. Just refuting the point that Summers only took the job because of injuries and/or transfers. That's fine, but no one has yet commented about DaJuan's lack of passing skills (a pretty important point in the offense). Early on, it was pretty grizzly- but he did get better. In an atmosphere where we have a ton of experienced talent coming back, I just can't see any freshmen cracking the starting lineup- just seems impossible in these circumstances. BTW, lest you don't think I'm a Summers fan, I was going to show up at the National Championship game (if the Hoyas made it) with a "DaJuan Shining Moment" sign. Heck, if DaJuan had just an average shooting night for him, we would have been there! Ah, what could have been.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 4, 2007 11:01:30 GMT -5
That's fine, but no one has yet commented about DaJuan's lack of passing skills (a pretty important point in the offense). Early on, it was pretty grizzly- but he did get better. In an atmosphere where we have a ton of experienced talent coming back, I just can't see any freshmen cracking the starting lineup- just seems impossible in these circumstances. BTW, lest you don't think I'm a Summers fan, I was going to show up at the National Championship game (if the Hoyas made it) with a "DaJuan Shining Moment" sign. Heck, if DaJuan had just an average shooting night for him, we would have been there! Ah, what could have been. 1) Someone has commented on Summers' "lack of passing skills"--you. I'm not sure if he can play the role of "Point Forward", but that's more because he never played it this year, rather than because he doesn't have any passing skills. Summers did have as many assists this year as Roy, in the same amount of minutes, and everyone always talks about Roy's passing abilities (correctly, in my opinion). Summers' turnovers come from ill advised drives more than bad passes 2) All that sign idea proves is that you like bad puns. Summers' has been your whipping boy all year.
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YB
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Post by YB on Apr 4, 2007 11:15:24 GMT -5
That's fine, but no one has yet commented about DaJuan's lack of passing skills (a pretty important point in the offense). Early on, it was pretty grizzly- but he did get better. In an atmosphere where we have a ton of experienced talent coming back, I just can't see any freshmen cracking the starting lineup- just seems impossible in these circumstances. BTW, lest you don't think I'm a Summers fan, I was going to show up at the National Championship game (if the Hoyas made it) with a "DaJuan Shining Moment" sign. Heck, if DaJuan had just an average shooting night for him, we would have been there! Ah, what could have been. 1) Someone has commented on Summers' "lack of passing skills"--you. I'm not sure if he can play the role of "Point Forward", but that's more because he never played it this year, rather than because he doesn't have any passing skills. Summers did have as many assists this year as Roy, in the same amount of minutes, and everyone always talks about Roy's passing abilities (correctly, in my opinion). Summers' turnovers come from ill advised drives more than bad passes 2) All that sign idea proves is that you like bad puns. Summers' has been your whipping boy all year. I actually warmed up to Summers quite a bit over the course of the year. I thought he played like, well, a freshman in the early going.... but as the year went on, he got MUCH better at the offensive and defensive nuances that lead to team success. And lead they did. DaJuan's skill set lends itself right now to being a finisher.... if he can become a bit more well-rounded, I think he and the team are better off. Don't you? I love his heart- he always plays hard. Just gotta cut down on the mistakes. Same with Pat Ewing, I thought. Bottom line, if you expect them to be freshmen and remember to lower the expectations accordingly, you are always happy with their development and, ultimately, results. I expect BIG things out of DaJuan and Vernon next year. Rivers, that backcourt will be crowded but III always finds ways for guys to contribute.
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hoya73
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Post by hoya73 on Apr 4, 2007 12:25:34 GMT -5
One thing that I think wouldn't affect our starting lineup, but possibly our rotation if Jeff or Roy were to leave would be: do we go after another big in the late signing period? If both left, I don't see how we couldn't. Seems like we're out of the mix for McClain, but how about the other unsigned bigs on our Recruiting List, Jamardo Samuels, etc. Or a JUCO guy like Nestor Colmanares?
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