DonkDonk
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Post by DonkDonk on Mar 24, 2007 15:26:12 GMT -5
i liked TC's explanation on pg 4 of this thread. i can't believe it has 6 pages but I'll throw in my 2 cents as well. i know it's getting tired but these are sometimes interesting issues
'switching pivot feet' is a complicated way to think about this issue in my opinion. If one just keeps in mind the question of whether he took three steps, which he didn't - he absolutely got rid of the ball before his "third step" - it becomes much more clear. check it on TiVo.
that fox sports guy should have had the volume up because Packer gave a solid assessment of why the call went against Byars for the carry and did NOT go against Sapp. pretty simple and we all know this - It's about the placement of the dribbling hand - Byars' hand clearly under the ball exercising illegal control over the direction of the next dribble, a carry, while Sapp's hand stayed on top and does not illegally manipulate the ball's direction (you can bounce it as high as you want but you just can't take 3 steps in between dribbles I think). there's a big difference between what byars did and what sapp did. this is pretty basic stuff and that Hench guy should not have added this point that what byars and sapp did was the same (he just needed more filler "ammo" for his refs were out to get Vandy argument).
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Post by vamosalaplaya on Mar 24, 2007 15:27:10 GMT -5
Near the end of the USC-UNC game, after a break where James Brown/CBS showed a slow motion replay of the last play three or four times, Nance asked Packer what he thought, prefacing it by saying "Nobody here, including Vanderbilt, thought it was a travel when it happened" and Packer basically said "To the degree it might of been I don't see how you call it , it was just a great play by Green."
Alot of Packer bashing going on, maybe I missed something on this one, but that take was reasonable. Perhaps Packer is just a status quo guy. Before the USC coach tossed his papers in the air, USC was called for kind of a bogus moving foul that Packer started vigorously defending before he even saw a replay. I think the guy has invested interest in the status quo, and while he doesn't do it in the mouthy cheerlead-y way Vitale does, he does it in other ways, like defending refs.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Mar 24, 2007 15:33:30 GMT -5
filo, you're a joke. anyone that says anything negative 'quits' on the team. give me a break. sapp played horrible and you're trashing me for pointing that out? give me a break. IMO sapp shouldn't have been in there and we won in spite of his horrible play. i'm unbiased and realistic, you're blind, just like some syracuse fans i know. jeff traveled and got away with it. stop acting like a first grader and just be happy we won. I am beyond happy we won. Sounds like you are the angry one. And you send me a PM with all sorts of name-calling and edited words and I am the first grader? How about some anger management, psycho-boy. Have the last word. I am done with you.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 24, 2007 16:54:13 GMT -5
That wasn't the issue. He picked up the pivot foot. Technically, he travelled...but I don't want that called (ummm...yeah, i know, obviously) because it didn't allow him to get the shot off and I don't want the refs to call the bumping body contact etc. by the Vandy players. Just like hockey, refs should, within reason, swallow the whistles for those plays and let the players determine the outcome of the game... Hoya. Saxa. You're simply wrong. He never picked up his pivot foot (until he switched to the left to shoot). I've gone back to TiVo again and watched frame by frame and his right foot never leaves the floor. So I don't see how you can say he traveled.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 24, 2007 17:30:31 GMT -5
I love this, Vandy has a photo sequence of the play in question, and it shows he didn't travel:
[rul]http://vanderbilt.rivals.com/photofeature.asp?SID=1087&fid=16497[/url]
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Oh My!
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Post by Oh My! on Mar 24, 2007 17:37:49 GMT -5
I know I'm a day late here, but should it surprise ANYONE that Packer incorrectly cited a rule on a broadcast watched by millions?
See the Packer thread for more info on why he sucks.
Classic "Dribble-->Fumble" play. He did not travel before starting his dribble, and once you fumble the ball, you are allowed to retrieve it. Next, he does not travel AFTER the fumble, as his right foot remains his pivot, and he lifts it to shoot, BUT IT DOES NOT RETURN TO THE FLOOR UNTIL AFTER THE BALL IS AWAY.
Nice work, Highsmith. I likely would have posted something similar if I weren't at the game. (Sorry if that's a dig).
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Post by DuddingtonHoya on Mar 24, 2007 17:54:07 GMT -5
On the Vandy slide show, the only slide that could possibly be a travel is slide 9, which shows the point when everyone says Jeff may have lifted his right foot. [slides 10-12 are the completely legal step-through that the credit card theif was complaining about]. But based on slide 9, it looks like a small piece of his right foot remained on the ground. Fact.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Mar 24, 2007 17:55:03 GMT -5
Jeff was fouled on the play. It was a bad call not to call the foul. To ignore the foul and call travelling would have bordered on cheating.
And, as others have pointed out, numerous calls before that play all went against us.
People love to hate the Hoyas.
Let's give them something to really hate- a Final Four appearance.
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mrsixer123
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Post by mrsixer123 on Mar 24, 2007 18:03:50 GMT -5
Yo, wtf? ? We won the damn game, why are we having arguments with each other as to if we should have won or not? Like jeff said today, he is not a ref, he just plays and leaves all the officiating to the professional I guess i need to make the lock of this thread official Btw, PM-ing someone to name call is a real b*tch move
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Mar 24, 2007 18:50:44 GMT -5
You're 100% right mrsixer. My bad - never should have gotten into any of this. My apologies to the board.
Let's go Hoyas.
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 24, 2007 18:58:46 GMT -5
It does look like the outside part of his right foot is on the floor in shot 9. The replay on CBS looked like there was a little more separation between his foot and the floor, but the outside part of his right foot is blocked from sight in each shot. I ALSO think they were invested in making this a travel.
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Mar 24, 2007 19:17:43 GMT -5
After looking at the slides I think it was barely a travel, but for any fan of basketball to complain that the refs should have called the travel is insane. How could the ref call a travel on something that takes a microscope or slow motion to decipher, especially with 2.5 seconds left?
Further, NO ONE in the arena, including Vandy fans, were calling for a travel after Green hit the shot. I didn't hear one Vandy person, player or coach screaming travel, and I was sitting near a bunch of them. I think Nantz made this point too. Seriously, it didnt look like a travel from where I was sitting, and only when I saw the close-up, slo-mo replay does it look like Green's right foot might have been off the ground just a cm or so.
Finally, we were getting SCREWED by the refs all game. So many touch fouls in the final 5 minutes it was really atrocious. Worst officiating I've seen this year and I watch a lot of college basketball games.
I will give Vandy fans credit on their message board. While some Vandy fans are going absolutely bananas, many are acknowledging that one cannot expect the referees to make a travel call in that situation and that Green's shot was legit. I think that's the right way to look at it.
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Mar 24, 2007 19:19:41 GMT -5
kchoya, i notice you said his right foot never leaves the floor. I think it does, but that just proves my point. If it did leave the floor, we are talking 1 cm or less. You cannot expect a referee to make that kind of call, no matter who you are rooting for.
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TahoeSkin
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Post by TahoeSkin on Mar 24, 2007 20:27:48 GMT -5
Shoot guys I think he walked but maybe im wrong b/c now im even seeing a few west virginia fans saying that he DID NOT walk. So that adds up to Packer says it was'nt Some Duke sayed he did'nt Some WVU fans says he did'nt im confused!!! It's the water in WV. MOVE!!!!!
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PopeJohn2
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Post by PopeJohn2 on Mar 25, 2007 19:33:16 GMT -5
someone email this to cbs.
Its over and dont know if its been mentioned already, but to preserve the greatness of Jeff's play, I think its worth mentioning. After going frame by frame reviewing the CBS 5x magnification of their feet, I noticed the following:
1. Jeff was pivoting to his right on the balls of his right foot, which is perfectly fine.
2. As he was doing so, Shan Foster slipped the front part of his left sneaker under Jeff's right heel which was uplifted.
3. When Jeff went to pivot back to the left (to make his ultimate shot), he shifted the weight on his right foot back onto his heel. But he stepped on Fosters sneaker, and this caused: (i) Green had to move his right foot slightly forward as a result of stepping on Fosters foot and Foster yanking his foot away. (ii) Foster to yanked up his left foot (a natural reaction everyone instinctually does when someone steps on your foot). If you look at the replay, if you didnt notice Jeff had just stepped on his foot, you would wonder why Foster would pick up his left foot so high off the floor and TO HIS RIGHT as Green was moving LEFT. The natural defensive reaction would have been for Foster to shuffle his left foot to the left along with Green. STEPPING ON FOSTERS FOOT IS WHAT GAVE JEFF THE OPENING BETWEEN FOSTER AND NELTNER. FOSTER WAS TOO LATE IN CLOSING THE GAP BECAUSE HE WAS MOVING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION AFTER GREEN STEPPED ON HIS FOOT.
So Green did not travel as it was Foster who put his foot under Jeffs and Fosters removal of it caused Jeff's to move forward. And Fosters instinctual reaction when his foot gets stepped on caused him to lose defensive position, and ultimately, the game.
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DonkDonk
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Post by DonkDonk on Mar 25, 2007 19:35:18 GMT -5
strangest timing for a post on this - popejohn.
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PopeJohn2
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Post by PopeJohn2 on Mar 25, 2007 19:44:04 GMT -5
agreed. just hoping someone from the media picks it up and reviews the tape so we dont have to hear about it as if it taints our legitimacy. now is time that media is visiting site.
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