hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Jan 14, 2007 14:16:15 GMT -5
SFHoya, I watch almost every Wizards game. There really isn't so much in common with our system that you need to mention it every other post. They are constantly fast breaking, run tons of isolations, and rarely have a big man with the ball at the top of the key.
Perhaps a few principles are the same, but I don't find the comparison particularly accurate or relevant.
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bubbrubbhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
We are the intuitive minds that plot the course. Woo-WOOO!
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Post by bubbrubbhoya on Jan 14, 2007 14:44:16 GMT -5
hoyaholic and essex are newbie posters which explains a lot. easily paniced, quick to blame, superficial basketball knowledge. i think they are freshman living in new south or village c. give them 3 more years and they will figure things about. ...said the poster who has been on the board for less than 2 years and predicted a loss to Notre Dame based (in part) on Notre Dame's mastery of UMCP. Brilliant. There are a lot of criticisms that can be leveled at the original posts, but lambasting the tenure of any posters as a reason for their poor criticisms is just stupid. At least in their short time on HoyaTalk, these posters have shown mastery of English spelling and subject/verb agreement. That said, it wasn't the coaching. If we're better on the boards, we win this game...just witness the last 3 minutes, when our inability to grab a rebound gave the bad guys the ball for 2 minutes. Oops.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 14, 2007 15:02:11 GMT -5
I promise the original thread was not intended to troll, or to incite the board. I am fully on board with JTIII and I do love the direction that the program is going in, but in my opinion you can't watch the team this year and not notice that there are times when the team seems constrained by the system - particularly when we get down a few baskets and/or in late game situations where we need to score quickly. It happened against Duke, Oregon, last night, and to a lesser extent against Nova. There's no particular shame in getting outcoached from time to time; it happens to everyone. By no means am I calling for regime change a la NC State. I wasn't as upset about this particular loss (which I agree on its face wasn't all that bad) as my post may have indicated. It was more the realization that the season, which held so much promise, may be slipping away from us. Yes, we may win the next six games and find ourselves 17-5, but it is just as likely that we lay an egg or two during that stretch. If that's the case we will have some serious work to do down the stretch to get into the tourney. If the tone of my original post came off as inflammatory, I apologize. I wrote it after watching the game on Tivo at 2 in the morning, and cocktails were involved. And just for the record, I am not a "newbie poster," just an infrequent one. I read the board every day, I just choose not to fill it with clutter (although it looks like most people think my original post was just that - oh well). Hoyaholic, In my book you get Kudos for returning and explaining your position. Good for you. As for your first post, I disagree almost entirely -- as do most of those who posted after you. JT3 and his staff are excellent coaches. That doesn't mean we will never get outcoached. Heck, John Wooden didn't win every game. Neither did Red, Bobby Knight, etc. Everyone knows our frontcourt is the strength of this team and our guard situation is thin. Also, we lost a few games early that we "shouldn't" have. But last night we played very well and lost to an excellent team -- and a well-coached one -- at their house. But we shot 60%! In the ND game, we played a much more uptempo pace. Pace has to do with our strategy, our personnel, our rebounding (tough to play uptempo when the other team is hitting at 60% -- and even higher in the first half since fast breaks require rebounds to get them started), and -- the DEfensive strategy of the opponent. Pitt was not allowing fast break opportunities. And our strategy to play a more deliberate offense paid off with the 60%. Moreover, we only had 10 turnovers for the game. Not a bad number. Our offense is more sophisticated than most and takes time to come together -- hence the early losses. The Nova loss was due to a team simply not being up for the game. Is that the coaches fault? the team's? It's both. As for what JT3 could be doing better? 1. He could make sure Jeff is fired up and ready to play every single minute of every game. I don't know how to do that, but he's the HC and he needs to figure that out. 2. We need more work at stopping the dribble drive. Our guards are not as quick, so we need to figure out a strategy to compensate. Part of that should be more help from the BIG GUYS behind them! 3. IMHO, we should have been fouling sooner in the last 3 minutes last night because we needed the ball back. 4. This team needs more FIRE! The personality of the guys -- and the team -- is a little too cool and laid back. We need energy and toughness. How do we get that? My one suggestion (given the current roster) is to get PE Jr. more minutes, and maybe start him. I have only seen a couple of games on TV and last night was clearly his best -- so I am not in a position to make a really solid suggestion, but my suggestion is only partially based on his solid play last night. The other reason is the enthusiasm and energy that Pat has displayed since he's been here -- even from the bench last year. If he can play as consistently under control as he did last night, the team will benefit from the energy and fight he has. 5. If I were as smart as JT3, I'd have a lot more suggestions. But I am not. However I am smart enough to see that he has taken a team of moderate talent to the Sweet Sixteen and an excruciatingly close loss to the eventual champion. How many Mickey D AA's did we have on last year's team? Let's get real. JT3 has done a superb job so far, and he will continue to.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,899
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 14, 2007 22:42:58 GMT -5
SFHoya, I watch almost every Wizards game. There really isn't so much in common with our system that you need to mention it every other post. They are constantly fast breaking, run tons of isolations, and rarely have a big man with the ball at the top of the key. Perhaps a few principles are the same, but I don't find the comparison particularly accurate or relevant. Then we'll have to disagree -- because I've watched them and I see a ton of similarities. Yes, they run, and they run it at a faster pace, but much of the movement is the same, much of the shots they get are exactly the same. The biggest difference is that we don't have a Gilbert Arenas.
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hoyaboy1
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,346
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Jan 15, 2007 1:13:30 GMT -5
If we start running lots of isolations and play at a faster pace in the next few years when the talent makeup changes, you can start making the comparison. But so far we have played a very different style than the Wizards every year under JTIII, and until there is some evidence of change I don't think the analogy means anything.
I know you believe that the JTIII offense is a mindset, that it can be fast paced, etc., but so far we only have evidence to the contrary. So, again, I'll wait and see before I start using the Wizards as a comp.
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HealyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Victory!!!
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Post by HealyHoya on Jan 15, 2007 10:13:40 GMT -5
Holy cow. We shoot over 60% at the Petersen Events Center against the #7 team in the nation that has played some of the best hard-nosed defense in the country over the past 4-5 years. We did this with true freshman and sophomores seeing significant playing time and we lost by, what, 5-6? Now you're saying that it's because we were outcoached? OUTCOACHED?
Were you here during the preceding coaches tenure? Did you have the misfortune to attend those games? Yes? No? And you think we're being outcoached now? Now we're being outcoached? Holy cow!
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Air Jordan
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
As the Hoyas continue their full court press the Kentucky Wildcats have went scoreless
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Post by Air Jordan on Jan 15, 2007 11:02:34 GMT -5
Not out coached, out played in the last 4 minutes is not the coaches fault. They let two offensive rebounds go back to Pitt to run more time off the clock, is that coaching?
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Jan 16, 2007 0:44:22 GMT -5
For the life of me this thread baffles me. Esh got out-coached. III's teams do not get out-coached. You all are counting on 18-22 year old players to be consistent and make the plays that you can see from your seats at home or in the lower bowl while sipping $8 beer through a straw. Meanwhile, III has a team that has lost 2 players throughout the season playing basketball to put it into the tournament and potentially get it a bye in the first round of the Big East Tournament. Ease up on the guy.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Jan 16, 2007 0:56:03 GMT -5
ok folks coaches are just fine.. piitt is a very very good and deep and experienced team and except for some weak penetration d in th efirst half we were very very good coaches fine were gonna win some games folks lets get moving and NO FREAKING WHINING NO CHESE WITH THAT WINE FOLKS WE WILL BE JUST FINE.. JUST WIN THE NEXT TWO HUSTLE MOVE PLAY D AND WE WIL BE OK.. PATRICKCOMING ON JEFF AND ROY PLAYING OK WE WILL BE
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DonkDonk
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Post by DonkDonk on Jan 16, 2007 10:09:34 GMT -5
hoyaholic could not have been more careful to offend the sensitivities of some on this board. listen, he said he likes JTIII, likes the direction, but believes we've been outcoached in his opinion. i don't understand why that can't be accepted by some for what it is. personally, I believe that because to some who have SO much of themselves invested in the team/program/board that a simple assessment such as -- "I believe we're being outcoached this year" is too injurious to the crux of their beliefs that they can't possibly contemplate it. these guys aren't saying the program is collapsing upon itself...just that it's been a predictable offense and the team has underperformed this season and that something probably should be done to change that.
a disclaimer should be posted on every criticism: sky is not falling, I love the Hoyas, in JTIII I trust.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 16, 2007 10:21:54 GMT -5
hoyaholic could not have been more careful to offend the sensitivities of some on this board. listen, he said he likes JTIII, likes the direction, but believes we've been outcoached in his opinion. i don't understand why that can't be accepted by some for what it is. personally, I believe that because to some who have SO much of themselves invested in the team/program/board that a simple assessment such as -- "I believe we're being outcoached this year" is too injurious to the crux of their beliefs that they can't possibly contemplate it. these guys aren't saying the program is collapsing upon itself...just that it's been a predictable offense and the team has underperformed this season and that something probably should be done to change that. a disclaimer should be posted on every criticism: sky is not falling, I love the Hoyas, in JTIII I trust. So, if we don't agree that JTIII is getting outcoached, we need to not disagree so as to not hurt Hoyaholic's feelings? Listen, if you can't stand someone disagreeing with you (and it seems Hoyaholic is okay with it), don't speak or write your opinion.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Jan 16, 2007 11:59:54 GMT -5
This year's team is not as good as last year's team, personnel-wise and experience-wise.
So why would anyone expect things to be better and bigger this year?
Last year's team wasn't exactly dominating teams, and we still weren't really there with the Villanova's and UCONN's of the world just yet.
I think III has done a STELLAR job this year.
Look how good Oregon is this year, eh?
We looked like crap in the beginning of the year. We lose one of our better reserves in Egerson right at the beginning of big East play, and we have improved.
Pitt is a good team. You are going to win some and lose some.
The coaching staff is doing a great job in that, with this personnel-group, we probably wouldn't be as competitive in the Big East right now.
Just remember the Esh days when folks want to harp on bad coaching.
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kghoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by kghoya on Jan 16, 2007 12:46:41 GMT -5
This year's team is not as good as last year's team, personnel-wise and experience-wise. So why would anyone expect things to be better and bigger this year? Last year's team wasn't exactly dominating teams, and we still weren't really there with the Villanova's and UCONN's of the world just yet. yeah no joke...i dont know why people thought this years team would be better than last years ...the pitt game was sorta like last years nova and uconn game...close final scores but never really threat to win in my opinion making the tournament will be a big deal with this group...it would help if everybody would forget the crazy preseason hype/rankings
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mapei
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Post by mapei on Jan 16, 2007 13:18:35 GMT -5
This year's team is not as good as last year's team, personnel-wise and experience-wise. So why would anyone expect things to be better and bigger this year? I totally agree, the_way. It's like people - including the media - were expecting us to play only the way we did last year against Duke, Ohio State, and Florida, and not the way we did in our losses, despite losing three major contributors. I know people rag on Bowman, and there's some reason, but we don't win those games last year without him. We don't win some of those games without Ashanti and Owens, either. That doesn't mean we didn't play like crap against Nova last week, when we probably were outcoached for that one game. But overall the program is headed in the right direction. Just don't expect it to happen overnight.
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HealyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Victory!!!
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Post by HealyHoya on Jan 16, 2007 16:51:49 GMT -5
This year's team is not as good as last year's team, personnel-wise and experience-wise. So why would anyone expect things to be better and bigger this year? I totally agree, the_way. It's like people - including the media - were expecting us to play only the way we did last year against Duke, Ohio State, and Florida, and not the way we did in our losses, despite losing three major contributors. I know people rag on Bowman, and there's some reason, but we don't win those games last year without him. We don't win some of those games without Ashanti and Owens, either. That doesn't mean we didn't play like crap against Nova last week, when we probably were outcoached for that one game. But overall the program is headed in the right direction. Just don't expect it to happen overnight. I think it was unrealistic to expect this year's squad to be better, at the beginning of the year, than we were against Ohio State at the end of last year. Apples and oranges. I think that's the real disconnect. People thought we would start this year by building from the level at which we ended last year. Of course, with three major contributors departing, that has not been the case. The more interesting debate is whether this team will be better at the end of the year than was last year's team at the end of the year. Apples to apples. I, for one (or IMO, IMHO, FWIW and all that nonsense), think there is reason to believe that we will be better come March '07 than we were in March '06.
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Hoyaholic
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by Hoyaholic on Jan 16, 2007 17:01:42 GMT -5
I did not mean to go awol - just way to busy at work to respond. To be honest I didn't think that anyone was really all that hard on me. I've been called worse.
OK then, (deep breath)
Huh, the_way?? I know I am running the risk of being branded a JTIII-hater - I swear I am not even a JTIII-doubter - but to say he (or just about anyone on the team) has done a "stellar" job this year so far is ludicrous.
We have played 5 quality opponents, if you want to be charitable and count Nova, and lost to 4 of them. We have also 1 decidely non-quality loss as well.
In the four losses I have watched (couldn't see ODU) we were clearly the better team in 3 of them (Pitt being the exception). In each we were in command early, and should put the game away by halftime. Most here on the board concurred after each game.
(And by the way, Oregon has had a nice run since we played, and has made that loss look a lot better, but I don't recall anybody here being very impressed with them at the time).
As for personnel, we have two (very deserving) pre-season Wooden Award candidates, and a returning two-year starting point guard that has played great. And a very highly regarded recruiting class that has contributed as expected. And PEII. And we should somehow feel lucky that we have been competitive enough to be 1-2 in the BE?? Why, because Marc Egerson transferred? Come on!!
I actually did (and still do) expect this year's team to be better than last year's. All the ingredients are there. When we lost to Duke, I was fine with it because it was clear that we were way ahead of where we were at the same time last season. There's just no way we put together that type of first half in December of 2005. But that doesn't mean that we didn't completely fall apart in the second half. We had the better player at every position on the floor and we got outscored by 18. You have to admit that at least some of that is coaching.
I also have to disagree with the_way in that I thought JTIII did a much better in-game coaching job last year. Without going back through the season game-by-game, we consistently came out of halftime and took control of games, even those where we were trailing, whereas this year we often seem to be on our heels after halftime.
Will I be surprised if we win our next 7 or 8 games and turn the season around? Absolutely not. Like I said above, I truly believe that come March we should be a better team than last year. I am not abandoning hope, just pointing out that this team has dramatically underperformed thus far and has a lot of work to do just to make sure that we get to see what kind of team they can be come March.
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hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by hoyarooter on Jan 16, 2007 20:43:54 GMT -5
Vanderbilt and Michigan have home wins this year over Tennessee and Illinois, respectively. Neither Vandy nor Michigan may ulitimately be an NCAA team (but it isn't impossible in either case), but convincing road wins over those teams have to be characterized as quality wins.
I think if you review our performances since the Duke game, we are on a clear upward arch - with the exception of Nova, which was an unmitigated disaster (and which we could easily have won, anyway). I'm moderately hopeful that the team over the next few weeks will prove that game to have been an aberration. I suggest we just wait and see how things play out.
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DonkDonk
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
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Post by DonkDonk on Jan 19, 2007 2:46:41 GMT -5
this should probably should just be a msg to SFHoya99 - but I'm saying not that you can't disagree but rather you wrongly dismiss the posters of such outcoaching talk as being newbies who aren't worthy of such talk. well, sorry, sire. (if you read the outcoaching threads, you'll see the tone). the Camp's responses are generally geared towards or secondly noting that the poster is unworthy in some sense of such a thought.
i don't doubt your knowledge of the hoyas etc. and college basketball, but you (not just SF)do. just the facts. there have been games where if adjustments had been made, things would have come out differently in our opinion.
but it has reached the point (and even it happened just once) where it could reasonably be debated that inadequacies exist in game coaching. Not suggesting replacement. i mean, otherwise, why have the board?
last thing, if you argue that if one can't stand disagreement - don't post; can you not stand my disagreement? but then you posted.
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Post by FromTheBeginning on Jan 19, 2007 9:21:37 GMT -5
First, just about everyone, especially the media, under estimated the effect of the loss of BB, AC and DO from last year's team - we basically lost 3 starters. It takes extra time to work into our system and the new guys are just starting to get it. The thing that is killing us right now is the turnovers - something that can and will be corrected. The next few games will tell us a lot - we should have a nice little streak going by the Marquette game. With the exception of Pittsburgh, this league is going to beat the hell out of each other. I'd expect us to be about 10-5 by the end of the season and that won't be half bad at all.
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Post by Gold Coast Hoya on Jan 19, 2007 10:03:57 GMT -5
Game coaching is not the issue, it's recruiting. In every game we lost and even in some of our wins, our guards do not display the quickness that is prevelant with guards on top teams. They may be able to shoot and they do look for cutters, but they are not able to take their man off the dribble, penetrate and either go to the basket or dish for easy scores.
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