Hoyaholic
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Post by Hoyaholic on Jan 14, 2007 6:27:51 GMT -5
Is that we are losing because we are being outcoached. Period. Oregon, Duke, and Nova were the exact same game. There has not been a game all season where we have not had the better team on the court. I keep saying to myself that it is all going to come together (ah, remember the Ohio State game) and we will make a run like last year, but I just don't see it. We are running out of time...fast. There are flashes..but that's it.
I know we all love JTIII, but let's face it, he is not getting the job done this year. Please don't get me wrong, I am not giving up on him, but it is beginning to look like all the other coaches have him figured out. We are so predictable it is ridiculous. If I were an opposing coach/player/fan I would know I could start the celebration once I got ahead by two possessions, because that is when we fold. Every time.
JTIII has looked like a guy who has coached at this level for 2 1/2 years; which, he has. We all want immediate results, but they are not coming. We are not nearly as good as we thought we would be; now we need to start worrying about whether we make the tourney. (ouch - this realy hurts to admit)
And now for the angry cheap shot at the players that I typically deplore:
Messers. Green and Hibbert can leave their stuff in Village A this summer. They will both be back.
( and on a positive note, nice game by PEII).
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Post by essex on Jan 14, 2007 8:19:53 GMT -5
OK, the door has been opened.
It's possible that what has been so overrated about the Hoyas (and after all these years of painful waiting) is not the team as a whole, or the so-called vaunted front line...but, rather, that we have a coaching staff that is very IVY...not really ready for prime time...playing an archaic system not really meant for the modern game at the highest level.
We have been unable to solve in-game problems; meanwhile the opposition staff has been able to flummox our guys almost at will.
Fact is, this is already a disappointing season...and in danger of becoming the most overrated pre-season Georgetown team in years.
IT WILL DEFINITLY HURT RECRUITING.
Finally: there is just nothing original in the GU offensive/defensive strategy (eg. Mixing the P offense with an up tempo attach at a moment's notice in game.
Instinctively, it seems to me, these highly talented athletes SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO PLAY...not constrained to the Esh theory of pass/dribble around the perimeter then shoot in the last 5 seconds...they should know how to break a PRESS...they should realize that three or five successful back doors a game is not Valhalla, etc. ERGO: MAYBE IT'S NOT THE KIDS WHO ARE INEXPERIENCED...IT'S THE COACHING STAFF!!!
Don't get me wrong...I'm not advocating looking for a coaching solution. But it wouldn't hurt for the right person to have a Dutch uncle talk with JTIII...'caused I'm beginning to smell a disaster...and it's just when the school is in the dawn of a major 21st century fund raising.
Where I watched the game...there was lots of rumbling about poor coaching...lots of "here we go again" and we're a "bunch of losers."
Something seem very awry in the state of Denmark.
We need to do something. And do it soon.
Essex
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 14, 2007 8:34:43 GMT -5
I disagree.
Don't get me wrong, no one is above criticism when things don't go well.
But this isn't one of those times. We just lost to a Top-Five team on the road by less than ten points. And make no mistake, they're a better overall team than we are right now. Period.
An offensive strategy that emphasizes working for a good shot, protecting possessions, and utilizing the open man is archaic? Well, boy, I thought that's exactly how Pittsburgh won last night.
Fact is, Pittsburgh DIDN'T flummox our guys at all. We shot 60% from the field! Our offensive system has nothing to do with our defense and rebounding, which weren't enough to win the game. Maybe there's coaching involved there, but to criticize the offense in a game where it was outstanding, seems outlandish.
Yes, we turned the ball over feeding the post more than I'd like, and yes, there were a few trips down the court where we had to force a poor shot at the end. But, that happened to Pittsburgh, too! Sometimes the defense forces that.
Again, no one is above criticism. And it's fair to point out that in four out of five losses, now, we've been ahead at the half. But this wasn't one of those games!
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Locker
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Locker on Jan 14, 2007 9:33:11 GMT -5
Chris Wright committed not once, but twice, to a school running that "archaic system."
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CO_Hoya
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Post by CO_Hoya on Jan 14, 2007 9:38:30 GMT -5
Meanwhile, posters on the Pitt message board say how impressed they are with JTIII's coaching.
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YB
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Post by YB on Jan 14, 2007 10:02:57 GMT -5
While I admit III has had a few bad games- notably, the ones you mentioned- when you look at the whole body of work, including the past few years, you have to say he's done a very good job. I'm hoping III learns as he goes as well.
I reject tho this notion that we are better than every team we've played. I don't think we are better than a VERY experienced Pitt team right now. We are young- it matters less the number of froshes than new players in new roles, where we had established, practiced players in those roles before. Summers is a turnover machine whose shot selection is very questionable. Ticket will be good but has no offensive game yet. Rivers is not ready yet. Ewing is coming along nicely, but we simply don't have enough quick guards to make the grade against good teams- and team decision-making has been terrible.
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ephoya04
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
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Post by ephoya04 on Jan 14, 2007 10:32:00 GMT -5
Lets also not forget III is still bringing in his players...he's really only had 1 year of recruits...give him time to get the Wrights, Frreemans and Braswells thru his program
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757hoyafan
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Post by 757hoyafan on Jan 14, 2007 11:05:30 GMT -5
it baffles me how anybody can complain about our Coaches--I just don't get it. if anything, JTIII has spoiled us over the years. we're 13-15 just 3 years ago. under his leadership we go deep into the NIT & then the sweet 16.
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Post by guhoyasfan36 on Jan 14, 2007 11:10:50 GMT -5
I like what JTIII has done so far. Put Georgetown back on the map, but everyone needs a little constructive critisism. By no means do I think we need a new coach, maybe just some different ideas to bring into the system. Wouldn't be great if we had moments in the game where we would get out and fastbreak. Changing tempo of the game, if the fastbreak wasn't there, then pull it back and work for a shot. Definately would make us an even tougher team to scout. Being able to make adjustments is what coaching is all about. Don't keep pounding a square peg in a round hole; if a team is pressing, don't keep running a press breaker that isn't working. I think JTIII is learning as much as anyone as things go along. In the end when Hoyas are hoisting the Championship trophy this thread will be the biggest waste of time.
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PopeJohn2
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Ultimate bailout is yet to come and unavoidable. Uncle Sam gonna pay your debt for you!
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Post by PopeJohn2 on Jan 14, 2007 11:23:40 GMT -5
the only elephant i see is a bunch of fans who dont know anything about basketball.
to hoyaholic and essex, i would be interested in your response to:
1. pitt shoots 60%+ last nite. you are saying it was bad coaching that allowed this? could the alternative theory be that they guards were too quick for ours?
2. GU shoots about 60% last nite. if coaching was the fault in #1, then certainly pitt has bad coaches too to allow us to shoot that high.
our offense did not lose the game last nite. it was our inability to close down their offense which was playing in the zone. pitt is lucky that they were in the zone otherwise we could have gotten a W.
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Post by big16 on Jan 14, 2007 12:00:12 GMT -5
I don't blame the coaches at all. The one thing that we all have to remember is that we see these guys play only during games. We don't see the day-to-day practice sessions. Only the coaches know the strengths and weaknesses of the players. How about the fact that we were extremely overrated at the begging of the season. If we were not ranked in the pre-season top 10, would we still feel this way after losing 3 of our top players. You can as coaches talk to your players until your blue in the face about certain things but the players have to go and perform. At the 1/2 he talked about the problem with Pitt's dribble drive. I'm sure that III would have also liked to have a guard dribble through Nova's full court press but maybe he didn't feel that it would have been a consistent approach. Everyone can be a coach in their own mind and have all the answers, but I believe that III is doing a good job. We lost to a good team last night playing good basketball. We couldn't stop the dribble drive using man or zone, that to me isn't a coaching problem, that's a player problem. Our guys tried, just didn't stop it. The only thing that III could of done was throw 6 guys out there.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Jan 14, 2007 12:21:28 GMT -5
This is just such a ridiculous thread to begin with, but I'll offer my $.02.
The team's struggles this year are not on III. I would only put some measure of blame on him for the Nova game (for failing to adjust at halftime to fullcourt pressure), and that's it. The man took a team that had laid bricks and turned the ball over all night on Monday and in 5 days turned it into a team that shot 61% and turned the ball over only 10 times at the most hostile environment we'll play all year against the best team we'll play all year. There was no way Pitt was going to beat us last night unless they played their absolute best. Our problem was that they did.
To respond to the original poster: I don't know what your criteria for "immediate results" are, but to take a team that finished under .500 and then go 19-15, 23-10 (Sweet 16) in your first two years are pretty immediate results, in my opinion. We win the next 6 games like we're supposed to (I think @louisville will be the only real challenge), and 17-5 (6-2 BE) is right there. Unless you were expecting nothing short of a Final Four appearance (which is absurd), I don't see how he's not producing results.
To the second poster: how you can criticize our offensive system after they just shot 61% from the field against arguably the best defensive team we will play all year is beyond me. And I won't even address the recruiting point you made because it is so insane.
I realize people are upset we lost last night, but a loss while playing extremely poor at home against a mediocre team is not the same as losing while playing well on the road against a legit Top 10 team where they happen to be 75-6 all time. Let's no go overboard with distributing blame in the same manner after both games.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on Jan 14, 2007 12:23:46 GMT -5
If the original post isn't "trolling", what is?
Fact of the matter is, everybody was hoping for much better from the players and coaches after last game. And they got exactly that. Still need to improve, still have some shortcomings that might be difficult, if not impossible to compensate for this year (extreme thinness at G), but overall, a MUCH better effort against a MUCH better team, on the road. If Pitt was in the same class as Nova, we'd have a problem. As it is, the coaches and players seem to have fixed many of the problems we were frustrated about vs. Nova. If the team continues to improve just like we saw from the Nova game to the Pitt game, the Hoyas will be a legitimate NCAA team and a tough out in the tourney.
Just need to get the D on penetration as efficient as our offensive system was vs. Pittsburgh.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Jan 14, 2007 12:26:06 GMT -5
I'm with you Rockaway. The piling on after each loss is pretty comical (I know I was guilty of it a bit after the 'Nova game). Some folks need to take a deep breath and consider that just maybe there are some teams out there that are more talented than the Hoyas. But how can that be? We were ranked #8 pre-season for heaven's sake? The season has been a bit of a let down so far, but we've come a long way in a couple of years. Besides, the season is far from over yet...
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 14, 2007 12:36:27 GMT -5
Two lines that make me laugh.
From essex, though I doubt he'll respond:
"playing an archaic system not really meant for the modern game at the highest level."
The highest scoring team in the NBA runs this system, though admittedly at a faster pace and with much better players.
From holic:
"We are running out of time...fast."
We are in the same position as last year. And were until January 21st.
"re an opposing coach/player/fan I would know I could start the celebration once I got ahead by two possessions, because that is when we fold. Every time."
We were down 15 to a Top 10 Pitt team last year at their place and won. Last night our comeback didn't fail because of offense, it was because we couldn't stop them.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Jan 14, 2007 12:58:31 GMT -5
I woke up, read this thread and now I know how the Wolfpack fans were in reaction to Herb Sendek.
Those first two posters, Hoyaholic and essex, posted the two most irrational, fair weather fan arguements that i've seen in a long time.
JTIII wasn't outcoached last night. In fact, he was very prepared. We lost to a team that played it's best game of the season. On the road. And they are a legit top 10 team.
The offense will be uptempo......when we have the right personell to do so. You can't have an uptempo offense with Jon Wallace. He just isn't that type of player. You can't have an uptempo offense with Jeff and Roy. They just aren't those type of players.
The offense looked very good last night. There were wrinkles thrown in, side pick and rolls, that were designed to take advantage of our guards and get Roy the ball. We made a concerted effort to take advantage of our post up ability at the small forward spot, and that's something we haven't done this season.
So don't tell me we were "flummoxed". Don't tell me we were "outcoached". We lost to a team that played a near perfect offensive game. Simple as that. You say that recruiting will be hurt, yet we have the best backcourt in the country coming in. And next year we already have a top 20 power forward coming in, with one of the best guards in D.C. already committed.
So to the "fan" who started this thread, stop the chicken little crap. The sky isn't falling.
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PopeJohn2
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Ultimate bailout is yet to come and unavoidable. Uncle Sam gonna pay your debt for you!
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Post by PopeJohn2 on Jan 14, 2007 13:13:28 GMT -5
hoyaholic and essex are newbie posters which explains a lot. easily paniced, quick to blame, superficial basketball knowledge. i think they are freshman living in new south or village c. give them 3 more years and they will figure things about.
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MCIGuy
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Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 14, 2007 13:25:35 GMT -5
IThe offense will be uptempo......when we have the right personell to do so. You can't have an uptempo offense with Jon Wallace. He just isn't that type of player. You can't have an uptempo offense with Jeff and Roy. They just aren't those type of players. Agree with the post overall but I disagree on a few points. 1)Jon is not an uptempo guy. But he can still pass the ball ahead more rather than walk it up past the halfcourt line most times. 2)Green is made for a fast tempo game. This guy is athletic and can run the floor. If he had played on, say, the AI teams you could bet he would be throwing down a couple of fast break dunks every game to increase his scoring average. He would also have more possessions to score. He simply does not get the opportunity. 3)Roy isn't made for a speed game. But I will once again point to the best fast breaking team that I can recall: the mid to late 80s Lakers. Kareem was an old guy by then who could not get up and down. But Magic and Shopwtime didn't stop for him or slow their game down. They pushed the pace with the four other guys running and filling the lanes. If they could not get a fast break basket they would then wait for Kareem to make it past halfcourt and then run their halfcourt offense. If the Hoyas had a speed guy at the point guard spot there is no reason why they could not do the same thing...well just a slong as they got the defensive rebound.
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PopeJohn2
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Ultimate bailout is yet to come and unavoidable. Uncle Sam gonna pay your debt for you!
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Post by PopeJohn2 on Jan 14, 2007 13:33:18 GMT -5
we were a much faster team last year with guys like bowman and cook on the team. they could dribble on a fast break in the open court. this year we have guys that are more about the basics than athleticism. only green is there and i dont think he is super comfortable leading a fast break. summers, macklin and peii may have it in them, but its not as polished at the moment.
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Hoyaholic
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Post by Hoyaholic on Jan 14, 2007 13:54:28 GMT -5
I promise the original thread was not intended to troll, or to incite the board. I am fully on board with JTIII and I do love the direction that the program is going in, but in my opinion you can't watch the team this year and not notice that there are times when the team seems constrained by the system - particularly when we get down a few baskets and/or in late game situations where we need to score quickly. It happened against Duke, Oregon, last night, and to a lesser extent against Nova.
There's no particular shame in getting outcoached from time to time; it happens to everyone. By no means am I calling for regime change a la NC State.
I wasn't as upset about this particular loss (which I agree on its face wasn't all that bad) as my post may have indicated. It was more the realization that the season, which held so much promise, may be slipping away from us. Yes, we may win the next six games and find ourselves 17-5, but it is just as likely that we lay an egg or two during that stretch. If that's the case we will have some serious work to do down the stretch to get into the tourney.
If the tone of my original post came off as inflammatory, I apologize. I wrote it after watching the game on Tivo at 2 in the morning, and cocktails were involved.
And just for the record, I am not a "newbie poster," just an infrequent one. I read the board every day, I just choose not to fill it with clutter (although it looks like most people think my original post was just that - oh well).
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