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Post by AustinHoya03 on Dec 3, 2006 2:12:50 GMT -5
Sapp was aggressive and looked like a scorer. Thank goodness. This was the most positive thing I took away from a terrible game. Sapp showed flashes of superstar in the first half. Not sure where all that opening intensity disappeared to at halftime though. Something is not right with Roy. He was better than that last season. From reports on this board, he was even better in Kenner League this summer. The coaching staff needs to get his head in the right place and remind him how to be agressive in the paint--he would've scored ten more points tonight by eliminating timidity. Average game for Wallace. I feel as if he's definitely the leader on this team but at times everyone expects him to carry the load. He needs a co-leader. Though I would like to see that co-leader come from the frontcourt, it doesn't look as if that'll happen. People are dogging this Duke team, and the Devils weren't good today, but I think they are in a similar situation to this year's Hoyas and will improve through the winter.
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Post by R Street Hoya on Dec 3, 2006 7:18:28 GMT -5
Is it just me or does it seem like the at the half the team decided to run "the fist" for the entire second half? Dribble around for 20- 30 seconds and then chuck up a shot? No one even seemed to be trying to make cuts to the basket.
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HoyaFanNY
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Never throw to the venus on a spider 3 Y banana!
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Dec 3, 2006 8:00:05 GMT -5
again, the guards lead the team in shots attempted, which is not good. i think it's a combination of not getting the ball to roy and green in the right spot and not being aggressive enough when they do get it. i'm being nice. both are really playing soft.
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Post by DuddingtonHoya on Dec 3, 2006 8:12:25 GMT -5
Jeff and Roy ... no onions this year.
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Highsmith
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Highsmith on Dec 3, 2006 8:22:18 GMT -5
Some more random thoughts on the game-
I was very pleased overall with the play, especially on offense, in he first half, but there was a stretch when Duke was still really struggling that we came down and took 3 (I think) really quick 3's (which we missed). One of those was by JW who just dribbled down and chucked it up with no one else anywhere near the basket. If we had worked the offense a bit on those possessions, that could have been another 6 (at least) points to add to our halftime lead. Maybe it would have mattered and maybe not, but it was a little disappointing after how well the offense was clicking in that stretch to waste those 3 opportunities.
Sapp was fantastic in the 1st half and then seemed to disappear/lose control in the second. I get sick of hearing/saying that so many players are still "working things out", but it may be the case here......or else when the rest of the team fell out of the offensive rhythm in the 2nd half, it threw his game off as well.
Great to see Roy dunking the ball a few times in the 1st half......none in the 2nd though. I still don't understand how that happens. Except for the nice drive he made, he was horrible in the 2nd. Last year he was total money when he got the ball in deep......this year, those shots just are not falling and there isn't much excuse for it.
While Jeff is still really lost looking when trying to score, I will say that he was playing his butt off the whole game. The results weren't always there, but it wasn't from lack of working hard. The most disturbing thing about his game was late when it seemed like we were finally trying to post him up/work him more into the offense. He really struggled to do anything- his shots were blocked, he turned it over, etc......just looked really lost out there. He seems to have forgotten or become unable to make any of his offensive moves from the past couple of years.
Wallace was his usual solid self. He made a few mistakes that were costly- that quick 3-ball in the early run and that poor shot right near the end that got blocked/altered bu McRoberts. However, there were also a few times where Duke was making a little run and Wallace was the one that stepped up for us and made the shot.......he has been very solid with that most of the year, but we really needed more of it in the 2nd half.
I really hope Rivers is OK.....I was VERY impressed with him. There were 3 or 4 times in the game where he went up with a shot and I cringed a little.....mostly since I haven't seen him play yet and haven't heard much positive about his offense. However, I think he hit most if not all his shots- including some mid-range jumpers which this team really needs.
I was pretty disappointed with not seeing Macklin in this game at all. One reason is that I hadn't seen the team play before this game and wanted to see him on the floor. Another reason is that he seems to bring some energy to the team and from what I have heard/read so far, he really hasn't done anything to hurt the team when he is out there. Maybe he could have provided a little spark in the second half when we needed a fire lit under us.......
I don't think Marc got into the game in the 2nd half (other than to help carry Rivers off)......he made some mistakes in the 1st, but he is another guy that fights hard out there and takes the ball to the basket......couldn't we have used that in the 2nd half too?
I think Summers is the only other guy who played that I didn't mention. It seems as though the things I've heard/read about him are pretty on target. He showed flashes of being great on offense, but his defense his definitely a work in progress.
I haven't seen too many comments (I'm just working through the board, maybe there is a thread on it I haven't gotten to) on the fact we started out in a zone. We have had people calling for it, since our guards have been getting beat by quicker guards. Interesting that we would use it against a team that may actually have slower guards than ours and I'm not so sure it did all that much, as we didn't get out on a single 3-pt shooter when using the zone. They were drilling 3's all over, which was ll that kept them in the game early. I don't think we went back to it much after the beginning of th game.....seems like something we should work on more or at least mix it in here and there to throw teams off.
In the end, I have NO idea what to make of this team. There are certainly a number of different theories by everyone on this board. I really agree with whoever said the 1st half showed the team we could be and the 2nd half showed the team we are right now. I still have to believe that this team will improve a lot this season and become a top-25 caliber team. How quickly we do it, though, will determine whether we will actually be a top 25 team. There have been many comments blaming a lot of the problems on the coaching staff and I can certainly understand why. We seem to have a world of potential and talent, but also a number of holes. It is the coaching staff's job to make the most of the potential/talent and to hide the holes as best as they can......then the players need to execute. I'm not too sure either side is doing the job. The way the rest of this season goes will tell a lot about both the players and the coaching staff. Will one or more players step up and be the REAL team leader(s) we need? Will the coaches find a way to motivate this team in BOTH halves of a game to play like they really want to win? Will the whole team fight together through this rough spot and get a fire lit inside them to get them going in the Big East? We also still have Michigan and Oral Roberts to go along with the (hopefully) more "cupcake" section of our schedule. I am REALLY hoping for a sweep of all these games going into the BE season. The one big positive of this game is that the staff has the 1st half to point at as an example to the players of what they can do (minus those quick 3's).
We could/should have won this one.......unfortunately, that is becoming a theme this year. Let's hope the whole team has learned from the game and will continue to take a step up (OK, a few steps would be nice). Next up, the James Madison game.....it's on my birthday too, so it BETTER be a good win!! How about a victory to match my age!?!
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Post by essex on Dec 3, 2006 8:27:59 GMT -5
Posted this on the wrong thread. (Sorry)
Here's the post in the proper, place.
********************************************************************* JT III...Pls stop forcing the p-offense on a group of very talented players.
Square peg, round hole.
Any sought after kid watching this Tower of Babel basketball will run like hell to another scholarship.
Unfortunately, we'll now start a mini-streak against a bunch of patsies...and revel in "kissin' your sister" (self adulation) until the next decent team runs us (North-South) off the court.
We are now out of the rankings, embarrassing Alums all over the world...and we'll see the $ effect in the upcoming fund raising planned for the approaching half-decade.
Help!!!
What does business do under these dire circumstances.
I won't answer that question.
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Post by DuddingtonHoya on Dec 3, 2006 8:33:26 GMT -5
Posted this on the wrong thread. (Sorry) Here's the post in the proper, place. ********************************************************************* JT III...Pls stop forcing the p-offense on a group of very talented players. Square peg, round hole. Any sought after kid watching this Tower of Babel basketball will run like hell to another scholarship. Unfortunately, we'll now start a mini-streak against a bunch of patsies...and revel in "kissin' your sister" (self adulation) until the next decent team runs us (North-South) off the court. We are now out of the rankings, embarrassing Alums all over the world...and we'll see the $ effect in the upcoming fund raising planned for the approaching half-decade. Help!!! What does business do under these dire circumstances. I won't answer that question. Same answer: It's not the offense. With Jeff and Roy's play to date, the same players wouldn't be successful in any offensive strategy.
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Highsmith
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,490
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Post by Highsmith on Dec 3, 2006 8:39:17 GMT -5
Posted this on the wrong thread. (Sorry) Here's the post in the proper, place. ********************************************************************* JT III...Pls stop forcing the p-offense on a group of very talented players. Square peg, round hole. Any sought after kid watching this Tower of Babel basketball will run like hell to another scholarship. Unfortunately, we'll now start a mini-streak against a bunch of patsies...and revel in "kissin' your sister" (self adulation) until the next decent team runs us (North-South) off the court. We are now out of the rankings, embarrassing Alums all over the world...and we'll see the $ effect in the upcoming fund raising planned for the approaching half-decade. Help!!! What does business do under these dire circumstances. I won't answer that question. I don't think this question would be raised if the second half had resembled the first. The system was not the problem......rebounding, turnovers, poor shot selection, lack of aggression by Roy and Jeff making moves inside- that was the problem and would have been the problem with any offensive strategy.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 3, 2006 8:53:34 GMT -5
From the Barker Davis article:
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Highsmith
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Post by Highsmith on Dec 3, 2006 9:04:45 GMT -5
From the Barker Davis article: I think there is a very good point there. When Duke took away the backdoor cuts, we needed to step up and hit the jumpers. While we may not have a lot of great 3pt shooters this year, we do have guys who have shown they can hit the mid-range jumper- Wallace, Jeff(at least in past years) and Sapp should be able to take advantage of this. Summers and especially in this game, Rivers also have shown this ability. We at least need to ATTEMPT the jumper to generate some offense.....who knows, if we actually take a couple of those shots and make them, maybe the defense will come back out and pressure us!! If the jumpers aren't falling, then take the ball to the hole- again we have guys that can do this.....they just don't do it enough. Being tentative, in ANY system, will not work. If our guys don't take the shots and make the decisions presented to them, it won't matter what offense we use.
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CO_Hoya
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Post by CO_Hoya on Dec 3, 2006 10:41:01 GMT -5
Agree with most that the team did not execute the offense at all in the 2nd half. I thought the 1st half offense was the best offensive performance I've seen by the team all year (having only watch Fairfield, Oregon and Duke). By halftime, I was thinking "Wow, Duke is worse than us!" Five minutes into the 2nd half, I knew we were going to lose.
Some observations from the box score:
G'town shot 14-18 on 2-Pt FGs, 1-8 3s, 3-5 FTs in the 1st half Duke shot 3-17 on 2-Pt FGs, 5-11 3s, 6-7 FTs in the 1st half
G'town shot 5-17 on 2-Pt FGs, 1-6 3s, 5-7 FTs in the 2nd half Duke shot 8-14 on 2-Pt FGs, 1-2 3s, 15-18 FTs in the 2nd half
G'town shot 1-8 3s in the 1st half, with Summers (0-2), Green (0-1), Wallace (0-1), Sapp (1-2) and Egerson (0-2) G'town shot 1-6 3s in the 2nd half, with Wallace (1-3), Sapp (0-2) and a desperation 3 missed by Crawford (0:01 on shot clock).
G'town had 11 assists on 15 FGs in the 1st half G'town had 1 assist on 6 FG in the 2nd half
G'town allowed 11 offensive and 20 total rebounds in the 1st half (Duke +7 in both categories), yet led by 7 pts G'town allowed 2 offensive and 11 total rebounds in the 2nd half (Duke -6, +4 in these categories), and was outscored by 16 pts
G'town had 6 TOs, but only 1 via steal, in the 1st half Duke had 10 TOs, with 3 via steal in the 1st half
G'town had 11 TOs, with 6 via steal in the 2nd half Duke had 8 TOs, but none via steal in the 2nd half
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by RDF on Dec 3, 2006 10:47:48 GMT -5
How sad is it that an opposing player said the change in game was in 2nd Half when (paraphrasing Jon Scheyer's words)
"We made an effort to get back on defense, slow them down and make them run their offense-and they were confused".
It's OUR OFFENSE and we were confused. Nuff said.
Vernon Macklin BETTER play next game and he better get minutes. We've waited years to get talent like him and while he's raw--you only get better by playing--and against the level of competition and stage that was last night's game. That prepares you more then sitting and watching guys play. If it was a team discipline/rules violation thing with him/PE JR, I understand but if it was a DNP--coaches decision--that decision was WRONG.
Talent matters--as much as III thinks you can win with "system" ball, it's about TALENT and letting the talent play within the system--not forcing the system and stifling the talent, which is what you see for one half per Hoya game.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Dec 3, 2006 12:17:36 GMT -5
Essex, RDF, and others- CALM the heck down. I hate dook more than anything and I can't express how much I wanted the Hoyas to stomp them last night. Nonetheless, to blame things on the coaches, especially in an angry and callous manner, is just low and totally unjustified.
Our offense has done a fine job of putting players in a position to make plays. Roy caught the ball on the post a fairly good percentage of the time when he was really open. Jeff had open shot opportunities and looks in the post. We had open threes. Our players need to convert those plays. That doesn't begin to mention all of the backdoor layups we got in the first half.
Look, the Princeton-style offense is not my favorite, but it is the system our coaches have chosen to run. It has the capacity to be a very effective system, as we saw at times last season. The problem is that right now our players are not executing it well. The solution is not to overhaul the system. Instead, we need to continue to work hard and improve our execution.
I hope (and expect) to see a notable improvement in that department over the next two months. However, as fans we need to look at things from a long-term perspective. Although a lot of us had dreams of a Final Four this year, that might not happen (although it is still possible). We get everyone on this team save Sead and Kenny back next year, and we add some talented players. More recruits are in the pipeline even after that.
It may take SEVERAL FOUR-YEAR CYCLES of players to get this offense to become the devastating system that it has the potential to be. As fans we need to be patient and support the teams through ups and downs. Although with the sloppy play we saw last night, we also saw a lot of potential. Rivers and Sapp are players, and they have months and years to improve in this season and others. Jeff and Roy need to step up in certain respects, but they both played their hearts out last night and they stand to have many great games in the future. Let's not forget all that they have done for this program before we take the gloves off and start to attack them.
So let's all take a deep breath and get ready for JMU.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Dec 3, 2006 12:32:47 GMT -5
I get a kick out of the panicky comments about the "Princeton Offense" and how we desperately need to dump it. Is this what we are going to read after every loss for JT3's entire tenure at GU?
"It slows the game down"
"It is designed for less athletic teams"
"No top ranked kids will want to play it"
This is the same offense that dropped 87 on Duke back in January. It is the same offense that took us to the Sweet Sixteen It is the same offense that nearly knocked off eventual National Champion Florida in the tourney. It is the same offense that convinced McDonald's AA Vernon Macklin to choose GU, along with top talent DaJuan Summers and Jermiah Rivers. It is the same offense that top 20 guards Austin Freeman and CHris Wright signed up for, and Jason Clark and Chris Braswell.
But it isn't easy. It takes time to build understanding and cohesion.
It was disappointing to lose to Duke in Durham, but hardly a disgrace or a surprise. It seems to be in vogue now to knock Duke, but no program has been more successful over the last 20 years or so. Losing to them on their home court -- well known as one of the toughest places to win -- is no disgrace.
We wanted a tougher pre-season schedule, we got it, and the team has lost 3 games.
Thank goodness the coaching staff is running things around here and not some of the members of this board.
The staff will continue to work with this team and we'll see enormous progress over the next month or two.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Dec 3, 2006 12:54:34 GMT -5
There is no problem with the offense - it just needs to be run like it was in the first half. When the game gets tight we seem to forget what put us ahead in the first place - that was what was maddening about this game.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by RDF on Dec 3, 2006 13:06:10 GMT -5
If you would actually READ the posts, you would see that I and others don't want to "scrap the offense" we want it adjusted to the talent that is on the current roster--each year your team takes on a personality and has different talent--you have to adjust to your talent and not force a style of play upon the players. It's called coaching.
It's not being "hard" or "negative" to point out how poor the team played in 2nd Half last night when they went into the "system" and away from just playing ball--within the system-which is how any successful team operates, in any sport.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Dec 3, 2006 13:31:02 GMT -5
Sure, any offense can be adjusted. But the Princeton-style offense is always going to be an offense based on precision rather than aggression. There's only so much room for adjustment.
The adjustment that needs to be made is not to the underlying offense. Instead, we need to tweak certain aspects of the offense (i.e. decisions about what are good shot/ passes, spacing, etc.) to improve our execution. But even when we have elite guards, it is very unlikely that we will average seventy-five or eighty points-per-game. That doesn't mean that our offense is a slow-down gimmick, as some have suggested. It is, however, a ball-control based system. As fans we need to stop yearning for more exciting play (i.e. the MORON NCSU fans who pushed away Sendek) and accept the system we have.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 3, 2006 14:14:30 GMT -5
What did NC State ever win with that offense? Their best showing was a Sweet 16 exit and we've already equaled that, so what is with comparing to NC State? I don't want to EVER RESEMBLE that mess of a program.
You can't win championships unless you play aggressively on both ends of the court. If you want to "think" enjoy thinking your way to many losses that are there to be had--games come down to who makes plays and people who are thinking and trying to be "smarter" often smart themselves out of a victory.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Dec 3, 2006 14:29:46 GMT -5
NC State is not the model- but the notion that Sendek was anything other than a stellar coach is a joke. Sendek took them to five straight NCAAs. Their offense, although not perfect, was not holding them back. What they needed was more elite players (and one might note that they had Chris Wright on the way).
We have some elite players and we have more on the way. I agree that our players need to be more aggressive- but they can do that within the confines of the current system with some very subtle adjustments. Again, the system is not the issue, and criticisms of it are unwarranted.
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Oh My!
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Post by Oh My! on Dec 3, 2006 16:02:47 GMT -5
Posted this on the wrong thread. (Sorry) Here's the post in the proper, place. ********************************************************************* JT III...Pls stop forcing the p-offense on a group of very talented players. Square peg, round hole. Any sought after kid watching this Tower of Babel basketball will run like hell to another scholarship. Unfortunately, we'll now start a mini-streak against a bunch of patsies...and revel in "kissin' your sister" (self adulation) until the next decent team runs us (North-South) off the court. We are now out of the rankings, embarrassing Alums all over the world...and we'll see the $ effect in the upcoming fund raising planned for the approaching half-decade. Help!!! What does business do under these dire circumstances. I won't answer that question. I don't think this question would be raised if the second half had resembled the first. The system was not the problem...... rebounding, turnovers, poor shot selection, lack of aggression by Roy and Jeff making moves inside- that was the problem and would have been the problem with any offensive strategy. Excellent point, Highsmith. The 1st half was 11 AST on 15 FG. And you know what, we put up those stats with what some here call "Blue Chip Athletes"! Maybe some "fans" should wake up & realize this offense can be run by student-athletes. Note the word ATHLETES!
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