SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 2, 2006 18:01:55 GMT -5
LOL. I just think the Ath Dept is being naive in thinking people won't rebel against this. They need to take ticket priviledges off the "benefit" list. I'll preface this by saying that I didn't get BET tickets, nor did I get Villanova tickets, and neither made me happy in any way: "Rebelling" is counterproductive. If everyone gets in a snit and decreases their donation next year, and Coach can't get the things he needs to run the program to its potential, and we go 6-10 and barely make the BET, then what? No one will want Big East tickets, and no one will give a Gerry McNamara's Ass what the Hoop Club brochure says anyway. Unfortunately, some people are getting the shaft. We beat Duke, we're going to the NCAAs for the first time in 5 years, everybody's back on the bandwagon, and the infrastructure was not in place to handle the implications of that. I've said it in a different thread: I'd MUCH rather have a good team, and have people Editeded off about not being able to get tickets, than the nonsense we put up with from 2002-2004. If there was a simple "If Available" on the ENTIRE ticket list, there wouldn't be any issues. There wasn't, and I trust people will learn from that and fix it for the future. You can do what you want going forward. THE HOOP CLUB MADE A COMMITMENT. HOW ABOUT FOLLOWING THROUGH ON IT? On ebay, prices for full ticket strips range from $350 to $600. Considering that the HHC members would have been required to pay $300 apiece anyway (right?) this is an upcharge to the HHC of up to $300/ticket. Surely you can find that money for people that donated $2,500 or more A YEAR? How can anyone trust the HHC on anything when at the first sign of adversity, their instinct is to blame something else and not deliver on promises?
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Madgesdiq
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,434
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Post by Madgesdiq on Mar 2, 2006 18:33:47 GMT -5
That is not the answer, specifically because ticket access is inherent in all hoops booster clubs. More transparency about what access specific levels of support ( including taking into account giving history in the formula) will get you to tickets is needed. I absolutely agree. The transparency is the issue here. The overpromising and underdelivering that the Hoop Club did this year is not unethical, as it obviously wasn't deliberate. But it stinks. And blaming it on external factors is not the answer, taking accountability is. The HHC shouldn't congratulate itself on a record year for donations when they could not produce on the biggest enticement offered to donors at a certain donation level. A simple "(if tickets are available)" disclaimer would have solved the problem, but a conscious marketing decision was made years ago to induce a new donor to contribute or current donor to increase his/her donation by differentiating Silver Hoya level from the Gold Hoya level by using guaranteed BE Tix as bait. When there weren't enough tickets this year, it was easy to blame external factors and lob a phone call to those below an arbitrary cut-off level informing those donors that the cut-off was $1,900 despite marketing material setting the level at $1,000. If the HHC had stated that donations above $1,900 will receive Big East tickets, how many donors in the Gold Hoya level would have donated between $1,000 and $1,899? Transparency and accountability. Perhaps at certain donation levels you need to institute a ticket lottery. How about this? Gold Hoya: $1,000-$2,499. 2 Tickets if seats are available. If there are not sufficient tickets to meet demands, all Gold Hoya members will be placed into a lottery to determine tickets. or Gold Hoya: $1,000-$2,499. 2 Tickets if seats are available. If there are not sufficient tickets to meet demands, tickets will be distributed in priority of donation levels. Either system is fine with me. Just tell people about it. At least then you know where you are going in. Not. "Thanks for being a Silver Hoya. Increase your donation and receive the following benefits: Gold Hoya: $1,000-$2,499. 2 Tickets."
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jahidihoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
jahidihoya
Posts: 534
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Post by jahidihoya on Mar 2, 2006 19:20:37 GMT -5
I have posted several items in recent months about the issues I have had with tickets through the Hoya Hoop Club. Many of the threads did not seem to inspire a lot of supporting posts - it almost seemed like it only impacted me. I find it interesting that now that this issue has impacted others it appears to now be a bigger issue. They are all part of a larger problem.
The Hoya Hoop Club is the only disappointment I have had in a season that has been pretty much magical. I think it is discouraging to see that this disappointment continues to spread to all ranks and levels of the HHC. Personally, I am very tired of the excuses and explanations. They are causing damage to their membership base. I hope that they will make improvements prior to next season...
In any event, go Hoyas! Even through this disappointment I will still cheer as loud as possible!
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,604
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Post by hoyatables on Mar 2, 2006 19:42:49 GMT -5
THE HOOP CLUB MADE A COMMITMENT. HOW ABOUT FOLLOWING THROUGH ON IT? On ebay, prices for full ticket strips range from $350 to $600. Considering that the HHC members would have been required to pay $300 apiece anyway (right?) this is an upcharge to the HHC of up to $300/ticket. Surely you can find that money for people that donated $2,500 or more A YEAR? How can anyone trust the HHC on anything when at the first sign of adversity, their instinct is to blame something else and not deliver on promises? Ummmm...if that's the case, why can't those who missed out on tickets through the hoop club just get them there themselves? Isn't that the most efficient solution, rather than the Hoop Club having to buy them and then turn them over? This way everyone can choose what they want and be done with it. Heck, you could cherry-pick and just get Thursday through Saturday if you're feelin extra lucky. I just don't get why the Hoop Club has to go out and do this. I mean, I upped myself to the next donation level on a guarantee from a young man on the other end of the phone in mid-January that I would get tickets even at the level I was at. I didn't, and I understand it. The Hoop Club will also know for next year that there IS demand from people for tickets who are willing to give $1000+; they may not have had that sort of guarantee in the past and based their initial request accordingly. Sometimes all the predictive economic tools in the world just blow up when the unexpected (beating Duke) happens. I think y'all should be happy you helped out the school and try to constructively work with the Hoop Club to explain your frustration. That's my intent. And for the record, there's no way its a binding contract, because the donation explicitly is a gift. Even if you think you're giving money for tickets, I'm sure there's no meeting of the minds on that point.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 3, 2006 2:29:25 GMT -5
THE HOOP CLUB MADE A COMMITMENT. HOW ABOUT FOLLOWING THROUGH ON IT? On ebay, prices for full ticket strips range from $350 to $600. Considering that the HHC members would have been required to pay $300 apiece anyway (right?) this is an upcharge to the HHC of up to $300/ticket. Surely you can find that money for people that donated $2,500 or more A YEAR? How can anyone trust the HHC on anything when at the first sign of adversity, their instinct is to blame something else and not deliver on promises? Ummmm...if that's the case, why can't those who missed out on tickets through the hoop club just get them there themselves? Isn't that the most efficient solution, rather than the Hoop Club having to buy them and then turn them over? This way everyone can choose what they want and be done with it. Heck, you could cherry-pick and just get Thursday through Saturday if you're feelin extra lucky. I just don't get why the Hoop Club has to go out and do this. I mean, I upped myself to the next donation level on a guarantee from a young man on the other end of the phone in mid-January that I would get tickets even at the level I was at. I didn't, and I understand it. The Hoop Club will also know for next year that there IS demand from people for tickets who are willing to give $1000+; they may not have had that sort of guarantee in the past and based their initial request accordingly. Sometimes all the predictive economic tools in the world just blow up when the unexpected (beating Duke) happens. I think y'all should be happy you helped out the school and try to constructively work with the Hoop Club to explain your frustration. That's my intent. And for the record, there's no way its a binding contract, because the donation explicitly is a gift. Even if you think you're giving money for tickets, I'm sure there's no meeting of the minds on that point. What's different? I think the HHC should pay the premium out of their coffers. And two, I think the HHC should do the legwork. Glad I never have to do business with you, tables. You'll sell me a product, then tell me to go buy it myself without refunding me any money. Good business. Good ethics. Intentionally or not, the HHC pulled a bait and switch. The ethical thing to do is to make it right. Return the donation or find some tickets.
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Madgesdiq
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,434
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Post by Madgesdiq on Mar 3, 2006 2:46:10 GMT -5
I mean, I upped myself to the next donation level on a guarantee from a young man on the other end of the phone in mid-January that I would get tickets even at the level I was at. I didn't, and I understand it. I don't know if this makes you a better person and Hoya fan than me, or someone PT Barnum would have made a nice chunk of change on, but if I was sitting in your shoes, I would be far less understanding, and more likely, would be attempting to locate that young man and demand that he personally stand behind his guarantee.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 3, 2006 2:48:26 GMT -5
I mean, I upped myself to the next donation level on a guarantee from a young man on the other end of the phone in mid-January that I would get tickets even at the level I was at. I didn't, and I understand it. I don't know if this makes you a better person and Hoya fan than me, or someone PT Barnum would have made a nice chunk of change on, but if I was sitting in your shoes, I would be far less understanding, and more likely, would be attempting to locate that young man and demand that he personally stand behind his guarantee. What I don't get is that if I were running the HHC, I wouldn't care if someone had tables' POV or yours, Madge. I sold a product. Whether legally binding or not, we all know what the understanding was. Either I deliver -- which is preferable, even at a loss -- or I return the money. Disregarding the ethical side, it is just good business.
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Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,304
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Post by Cambridge on Mar 3, 2006 3:58:20 GMT -5
...and all 6 who are able to get tix to the BET will get to go to the Open Membership Meeting. For the record, I think GU has to do a lot to update and modernize, standardize really, how it handles tickets. Too much demand, too many donors, to do the mom-and-pop shop way anymore. Maybe an automated system, with someone monitoring to take care fo special cases? You can't automate that which you do not control. MCI has the power when it comes to distributing the tickets. There is no Ticketmaster outlet at McDonough, and we can't do anything about that, short of building our own arena (but let's not beat that dead horse in this thread, please). And the "too much demand, too many donors" part - while true - is a new issue, and you're right that the athletic dept. needs to figure out a new infrastructure. Keep in mind that the Hoop Club's membership count this year is the second highest ever (behind only 1984), and will continue to grow through the end of the fiscal year (June). Now is the time for those in McD to view that as a base (not a spike), and put the appropriate systems in place to deal with it...I think Bernard Muir has put the wheels in motion and things will only get better. McGriddle me this...how is there no ticketmaster outlet at McDonough, but I could buy ticketmaster tickets from the Corp grocery store vital vitels?
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Post by FromTheBeginning on Mar 3, 2006 9:58:59 GMT -5
I've stayed out of this as long as I can - I'm a Coach's Circle Level Donor - I have donated to the Hoop Club every year of its existence - I did not request tickets to the BET this year. If I had and I was told I could not get them because the number of donors ahead of me was greater than the number of tickets alloted - I would have been very disappointed but I would have understood. If I had prepaid reservations where I would lose money to cancel - I would have been upset, but would the cancellation penalties have been enough to purchase tickets myself from another source? I don't know when the Athletic Department received confirmation from the Big East as to the actual number of tickets each school would get. I don't know when the Hoop Club was notified by the Athletic Dept. as to how many ticket they were allotted. I don't know how many tickets the Hoop Club needed to satisfy their obligations to donors - both before or after they were informed about the allotment. I don't know if this situation occurred last year - or how many tickets in excess of the number required to meet the HHC donation commitment there were last year. I don't know what efforts were made to remedy the situation before the $1,900 cut off amount was determined. I don't know if the highest level donors had there allotment reduced from 6 or 4 tickets to help out with the lower level commitments. Would the donor who thought he was going to get 4 or 6 tickets have any less right to be upset if he had planned to take 4 or six people to NY and only got two tickets. I don't know a lot of things things. I'll follow with what I do know in a minute.
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Post by FromTheBeginning on Mar 3, 2006 10:09:26 GMT -5
I do know things need to be changed for next year. I do know disclaimers need to be added. I do know my HHC donation was a DONATION - not a seat license purchase - not a ticket purchase - but a DONATION. I know I give to the program because I love the University and Geporgetown Basketball. I know I don't hold some junior in the college who is making fund raising calls financially or ethically responsible for this situation. I know the HHC and Athletic Dept can do better. I am confident we are moving in that direction. I know if I was in charge, I would have had a very real dilemma in deciding whether or not to use every student ticket to mitigate the shortage. Most of all, I know I DID NOT sign a contract with Georgetown University or the HHC to guarantee me tickets to the BET. I made a designated contribution to Georgetown University. I listed it on my tax return as a charitable contribution beacuse that is what it was.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,832
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 3, 2006 10:24:03 GMT -5
FTB,
Thanks for the comments. I agree with your perspective. I've been a HHC member since graduating in 1981 and, while I've not been able to be as generous as you, have donated for much the same reasons.
My major take from all of this is that the process and mechanisms between the Athletic Department - Ticket Office - HHC need revamping, streamlining, and above all, more transparency. Like it or not, the implied/subliminal message from the HHC was that donating at a certain level would guarantee access to tickets. This clearly became more difficult/impossible to do and a source of major frustration for some, as played out in this thread.
One hopes that this will serve as an impetus to improve the overall process going forward. I received two separate calls from the ticket office over the past week: one to tell me I would receive two tickets and one a week later to tell me I was below the cutoff and therefore would not. While I appreciate the intent to keep me informed, I can see where some might become very frustrated with this. I've today removed myself from the wait list in order to let someone else who got shut out possibly have a chance.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 3, 2006 11:10:41 GMT -5
Does anyone have the Hoya Hoop Club brochure (or the BIG EAST brochure) still sitting around? I'm wondering exactly what the language is. I could have sworn that words like "priority" and "non-priority" are used on the applicable charts implying there are no guarantees. But I could be wrong. And I would agree that the language ought to be more precise in any event.
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,604
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Post by hoyatables on Mar 3, 2006 11:12:46 GMT -5
SFHoya and Madge: I feel your pain, trust me, and I'll admit I am not quite at your donation level it. But I think FTB has a point--it was a "donation" and in the end, that what it was. Dan is right (as always) that the HHC needs to change their entire donation/benefit/ticket allocation policy. They need to be more transparent in the following ways:
1) On the whole: "Duke tickets will be allocated to Hoop Club members on a donation level basis, regardless of when you submit your order."
2) For donation levels: a) "Big East tickets will be allocated as follows. This priority level is subject to the total number of tickets allocated to the Hoop Club by the Big East Conference/MSG." b) "We've just learned that our allocation will fall short of our expected demand. Accordingly, we must adjust the allocation for this season. The following measures will be taken to help those who were unfortunately able to receive tickets this year."
3) Away game tickets (i've no experience, but sounds like being more transparent and proactive were again the biggest requests here).
I think there is something to be said for adjusting the priority level to take in a number of variables: 1) How much you give. Always going to be #1
2) How long you've been donating. And I think extra points for having done so a) at consistent levels and b) over the past ten years.
3) When you place requests for tickets for home, away, and tournament games. I think that there should be some incentive to buy early. Here's why: a) it will give the hoop club a better idea of demand so that they can request more BET tickets in October/November. I know the ND requests were due way back then. Gtown, by contrast, mails it out in late january right after the Duke game. b) It rewards those who consistently support the team and aren't bandwagonners. I know this is not economically rational, and the HHC should leave some prime tickets open for the Johnny-come-latelies, but there should be a guarantee for those that will lay the money on the line in October.
4) A reverse adjustment for age. They've done this with the Young Alumni section. They should also have young alum sections for away games and for the Tournament. Quite simply, we can't give at the levels of the Big Guns, and I think we all saw that the Young alums definitely bring something to the table.
5) I don't know how I feel about this--some might argue that there should be an alumni priority. I think as long as you are a member of the hoop club, that is good enough for me!
6) There should be a lottery of some of the tickets open to those in any level. This will give those in lower levels an incentive to still donate. Perhaps you establish a minimum cutoff (i.e. $100) to make sure those donation levels are something relatively significant.
Finally, we need more dedicated staff. Steve was a great addition this year on the ticketing side for the season tickets, but as I understand it he doesn't handle it all. We need another Steve for the away games and tournament. Or if Steve can handle it, he's excellent at his job--double his paycheck and give him more responsibility.
And above all, make sure the people who are on the other side of the ticket transaction are giving out the right information, rather than blaming it on the band when students can't get tickets or telling alums that they can and then they can't get tickets and this amount is enough and then it's not enough.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,791
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 3, 2006 11:15:01 GMT -5
FTB, you're missing the point. Which is that some people who give money don't agree with you. (And I'm not talking about me. I neither expected nor requested tickets)
The Hoop Club will lose money from donors who disagree next year, and the year after, and the year after. It is very nice of you that you would have acquiesed and understood. For others, they may not see it that way.
One issue I personally think holds the club back is that they always look at fundraising as a donation, and ignore the fact that a good amount of their current donors and potential donors do not. It limits the amount of money raised and the number of people involved.
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YB
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,494
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Post by YB on Mar 3, 2006 11:22:32 GMT -5
The problem is, you can say "well, the fine print said 'priority', or the fine print said 'if available'", but these things have been marketed as cash for tickets/seats for far too long. That has to stop, and stop immediately.
The truth of it is that it is cash to keep the program going. If you are a Hoya fan, like what 3 has done and want the program to be able to afford to keep him and his staff, you donate. If not, you don't ....THAT's the modern, current truth of it all.
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Post by FromTheBeginning on Mar 3, 2006 11:40:40 GMT -5
The brochure for the HHC says nothing about a "Guarantee" - it just calls it Ticket Priority" and "entitles you to priority in puchasing basketball season tickets" and "Members receive top priority for season, away game and post season tournament tickets". I agree it needs to be cleaned up, made more transparent, and made clear there are no guarantees for anyone or anything. The fact remains that there are no "guarantees". You can have all the priority you want but only if there are tickets available to purchase. It also states that your history of contributions as well as your specific year giving level are used in determing priority. If this policy was followed to the letter there would be no student tickets.
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YB
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,494
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Post by YB on Mar 3, 2006 11:46:17 GMT -5
They have to stop using tickets as a carrot in general. it might be a sidebar in the future, but it's clearly messy and misleading to keep mentioning them as a benefit if people may or may not get them.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,832
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Post by DanMcQ on Mar 3, 2006 11:53:51 GMT -5
Two things:
1. I don't think any alums or HHC members would want to "use up" all the allotted tickets so students would get none. That would be ridiculous. There will )and should) always be 2 pools of tickets.
2. I disagree re: ticket priorities: the HHC has to use ticket priority as a 'benefit'. Every school's booster club does this. Like it or not, those who can afford to be more generous will achieve greater access. I do not have a problem with that. Take away that 'benefit' and I guarantee you will have a difficult time building the HHC donation base.
The problem with the system occurs when allocations made to the school by others (the BE, other schools) are lower than anticipated (which happens frequently). If there is not a coherent system in place that everyone understands that is prepared for increased demand for fewer tickets misunderstandings arise.
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YB
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,494
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Post by YB on Mar 3, 2006 11:58:16 GMT -5
There currently is no coherent system, no transparency- that is a major problem here. But I think you miss my point, Dan.
You can't market joining the HHC as a tickets thing. That clearly won't work- you chase away all lower-level donors. Also confusing.
You market it as straight donation- with tickets possibility being an added benefit. We are going into a brave new world- this is not bad, but we have to change how we think of these things.
It has to be straight donation, in the end.
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Madgesdiq
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,434
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Post by Madgesdiq on Mar 3, 2006 11:58:25 GMT -5
I agree with almost everything you wrote. There should be transparency going in to the process, and accountability instead of blame when the process doesn't work. When a 25 year Hoop Club member gets two calls from the ticket office, one telling him that he has tickets and follow-up telling him "sorry" something is terribly wrong with the process. However, I don't think FTB has a point. I have previously donated at the Silver Hoya level without requesting BE tickets. Any games I have attended have been by purchasing tickets on an individual game basis during the tournament. A donation is a donation, however, when an individual is sent marketing materials, contacted by fundraisers and told that an increased donation from the Silver Hoya level to the Gold Hoya level will result in increased benefits, specifically, 2 Big East tickets, and the individual bites hook, line and sinker on the sales pitch, I think that individual has a right to feel misled when the end result leaves him feeling very much like a Silver Hoya with a lighter wallet. I would have donated at the Silver Hoya level with or without the pitch, and not expected to have the opportunity to buy BE tix. SFHoya and Madge: I feel your pain, trust me, and I'll admit I am not quite at your donation level it. But I think FTB has a point--it was a "donation" and in the end, that what it was. Dan is right (as always) that the HHC needs to change their entire donation/benefit/ticket allocation policy. They need to be more transparent in the following ways: 1) On the whole: "Duke tickets will be allocated to Hoop Club members on a donation level basis, regardless of when you submit your order." 2) For donation levels: a) "Big East tickets will be allocated as follows. This priority level is subject to the total number of tickets allocated to the Hoop Club by the Big East Conference/MSG." b) "We've just learned that our allocation will fall short of our expected demand. Accordingly, we must adjust the allocation for this season. The following measures will be taken to help those who were unfortunately able to receive tickets this year." 3) Away game tickets (i've no experience, but sounds like being more transparent and proactive were again the biggest requests here). I think there is something to be said for adjusting the priority level to take in a number of variables: 1) How much you give. Always going to be #1 2) How long you've been donating. And I think extra points for having done so a) at consistent levels and b) over the past ten years. 3) When you place requests for tickets for home, away, and tournament games. I think that there should be some incentive to buy early. Here's why: a) it will give the hoop club a better idea of demand so that they can request more BET tickets in October/November. I know the ND requests were due way back then. Gtown, by contrast, mails it out in late january right after the Duke game. b) It rewards those who consistently support the team and aren't bandwagonners. I know this is not economically rational, and the HHC should leave some prime tickets open for the Johnny-come-latelies, but there should be a guarantee for those that will lay the money on the line in October. 4) A reverse adjustment for age. They've done this with the Young Alumni section. They should also have young alum sections for away games and for the Tournament. Quite simply, we can't give at the levels of the Big Guns, and I think we all saw that the Young alums definitely bring something to the table. 5) I don't know how I feel about this--some might argue that there should be an alumni priority. I think as long as you are a member of the hoop club, that is good enough for me! 6) There should be a lottery of some of the tickets open to those in any level. This will give those in lower levels an incentive to still donate. Perhaps you establish a minimum cutoff (i.e. $100) to make sure those donation levels are something relatively significant. Finally, we need more dedicated staff. Steve was a great addition this year on the ticketing side for the season tickets, but as I understand it he doesn't handle it all. We need another Steve for the away games and tournament. Or if Steve can handle it, he's excellent at his job--double his paycheck and give him more responsibility. And above all, make sure the people who are on the other side of the ticket transaction are giving out the right information, rather than blaming it on the band when students can't get tickets or telling alums that they can and then they can't get tickets and this amount is enough and then it's not enough.
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