|
|
Post by accelerate on Sept 24, 2024 12:37:26 GMT -5
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,852
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 24, 2024 13:22:25 GMT -5
"Continue" is not altogether accurate as Georgetown has hovered from 20 to 24 for the past decade: 2016: 20 2017: 20 2018: 22 2019: 24 2020: 23 2021: 23 2022: 22 2023: 22 2024: 22 2025: 24 What changed? Two words: Pell Grants. US News brought down the calculation of 1st Gen performance (a siginficant Georgetown strength) from 5% of the total to 0% in favor giving the 5% to Pell Grant graduation performance, which it freely admits is "adjusted to give much more credit to schools with larger Pell student proportions." Georgetown has fewer Pell Grant recipients than most schools. Per the Education Data Project, "51% of Pell Grant funds go to students whose families earn less than $20,000 annually, the largest majority....88% of Pell Grant funds go to public universities."
Coincidentally or not, Georgetown boosted its Pell Grant population to 15 percent this year, though it won't affect the US News reporting for at least five years. This unfortunately drives the very poor and the very rich as drivers of the student population, with middle-income families largely left holding a bill they cannot justify. www.georgetown.edu/news/georgetown-highest-number-of-pell-eligible-students-in-more-than-a-decade |
|
SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 19,147
|
Post by SSHoya on Sept 24, 2024 13:31:00 GMT -5
|
|
coach98
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 153 
|
Post by coach98 on Sept 24, 2024 14:02:30 GMT -5
I think when I applied, they were #17 in this poll. Didn't Charlie Deacon at some point say he didn't care about these rankings?
|
|
|
|
Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Sept 24, 2024 15:08:22 GMT -5
There may have been one or two years of 17 or 18, but for the most part over the last 25 years, it’s been between a high of 19 and a low of 24. With the kind of bounces DFW showed above that don’t really point to an actual trend so much as the constant tweaking of the US News methodology— which are specifically engineered to create changes in the rankings, and therefore interest among college alumni and the public.
|
|
|
|
Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Sept 24, 2024 15:22:40 GMT -5
This isn’t to say that there can’t be schools with dramatic movement.
Emory University, for example, rose as high as ninth in 1997,roughly coinciding with a massive capital campaign that they used to poach prominent faculty from Ivy League schools. Over the following two decades, that didn’t hold up and they gradually dropped to bouncing around the low 20s near Georgetown during the past few years.
Conversely, Northwestern saw its rankings gradually rise from the mid-to-high teens in the 80s and 90s to being a consistent top 10 rank—#6 this year.
|
|
SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
Posts: 19,147
|
Post by SSHoya on Sept 24, 2024 15:48:43 GMT -5
I think when I applied, they were #17 in this poll. Didn't Charlie Deacon at some point say he didn't care about these rankings? Charlie also comments about gaming the system with some schools having "enrollment management" and VPs of enrollment. He sounds rather skeptical. Have you considered joining the group of colleges that have declared they will not give data to U.S. News? Deacon: We haven’t given any thought to joining the boycott. But what I object to is the precision of the rankings—saying you can rank schools one, two, three, four, five. If you did them more broadly—say, grouping the top 25, the second 25—that would be helpful. Families form judgments about colleges in different ways. People at Andover or St. Albans have lots of resources and know very well who the top ten colleges are. But the kids who are from first-generation college-going families out in the central valley of California often depend on the U.S. News rankings. To the extent that U.S. News gets it right, maybe that’s okay. But those families may be driven to making decisions on the wrong basis. www.washingtonian.com/2007/10/01/getting-in-to-top-schools/ |
|
|
|
Post by reformation on Sept 24, 2024 16:09:15 GMT -5
Over ranked schools: Yale Duke NW Hopkins Princeton
Under Ranked Schools: Har Stan Cal Tech Col
We should probably be a little higher but at least we are on the list.
Even though I think they are materially over ranked, you have to credit NW and Duke with upgrading their institutions through smart strategic planning and execution on their plans
|
|
nbhoya
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 437
|
Post by nbhoya on Sept 24, 2024 17:21:07 GMT -5
Are we ever going to commit to trying to improve in these or just pretend they don’t matter?
|
|
blueeagle
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Win or lose, it's the school we choose.
Posts: 498
|
Post by blueeagle on Sept 24, 2024 17:41:37 GMT -5
When is the next Tim Healy walking across the gates at 37th and O? Not just for rankings, but as a transformative leader for the university’s future relevance.
|
|
|
|
Post by accelerate on Sept 24, 2024 17:56:41 GMT -5
need new admin
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,852
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 24, 2024 18:36:08 GMT -5
When is the next Tim Healy walking across the gates at 37th and O? Not just for rankings, but as a transformative leader for the university’s future relevance. Healy was completely unique because he was at the same time 1) a recognized scholar in his field, 2) a Jesuit with executive experience (via CUNY) and 3) someone who was not afraid to take on big challenges. The other two finalists, Fairfield president Thomas Fitzgerald SJ and former Jesuit provincial Robert Mitchell SJ, were not in his league on these three. For all his bravado, Healy couldn't do half of what he wanted because he arrived to find with a $14 million endowment that had been routinely tapped to cover operating deficits. The Georgetown of the 1980s was financed on debt and the balance sheet is still heavy on it. That Georgetown is considered a Top 25 school is as much on Healy as it is how Theodore Hesburgh cajoled Notre Dame into the same company--the one advantage ND over Georgetown has is not location or a grand law school, but foundational wealth that sets it apart from its other Catholic brethren. To be a "transformational leader" you have to be in possession of something to transform, and to borrow an overused phrase, I'm not sure what Georgetown is "called to be" in this regard. Simply hiring faculty for academic positions such as the "Environmental Justice Commons" is not moving that needle. At a distance, it may appear that Georgetown's niche is not considered as prominent at what Hopkins does, for example. Instead, transformation means looking at major changes which will inevitably get pushback; for example, Georgetown is, I believe, the only Top 25 university without a commitment to the applied sciences. Is it willing to invest $250-500M on that? So far, no. The medical school has become less prestigious than many GU alumni would realize, what do you do with that? With a half-dozen Jesuit colleges on Forbes' list of financially troubled schools, does Georgetown invest in (or acquire) their assets? As long as Georgetown cannot fully compete for students on financial aid, what then? And the clerical elephant in the room: the average age of Jesuits nationwide is over 70. Their numbers will drop by half over the next 15-20 years. What then? Figuratively and literally speaking, the next generation's Tim Healy is not walking through that gate. |
|
|
|
Post by accelerate on Sept 24, 2024 19:16:31 GMT -5
It is deeply confusing to me why Georgetown has yet to take the sciences seriously and is instead investing in things like the "earth commons" as the above poster mentions. What are we doing...
|
|
|
|
Post by accelerate on Sept 24, 2024 19:22:35 GMT -5
even just bolstering our computer science is a desperately needed start...
|
|
nbhoya
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 437
|
Post by nbhoya on Sept 24, 2024 20:28:29 GMT -5
On face value, Georgetown should consistently be top 15 or better in these. Have got to do better.
|
|
Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,650
|
Post by Bigs"R"Us on Sept 24, 2024 20:31:25 GMT -5
Institutional rot. Same folks at the helm forever. No new ideas or direction. Completely missed the shift to STEM away from liberal arts. This is decades in the making. The pull is stronger to #29 than #19.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,852
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 24, 2024 21:03:18 GMT -5
On face value, Georgetown should consistently be top 15 or better in these. Have got to do better. On what basis? Here are the metrics used by US News and some comparisons with those top 15 schools (e.g., Ivies + MIT, Stanford, CalTech, Duke, Northwestern, Hopkins and Chicago): Graduation rates: (16%): Comparable with the top 15. Freshman Retention (5%): Comparable. Graduation rate performance (10%): Georgetown's six year number is slightly less than the Top 15 schools, but it's probably not significant. Pell Grant Performance: (11%): As discussed above, GU lags in this category. Borrower debt (5%): The Top 15 schools are increasingly debt-free in financial aid. GU hasn't raised the money to compete here because donors aren't as interested. College grads earning more than a high school graduate (5%): Comparable. (GU average salaries are higher than the Top 15 in this metric--probably top 4.) Peer assessment (20%): Ah, the great differentiator. The college presidents who fill this out anonymously are simply not putting Georgetown ahead of the lower tier Ivies or Chicago on this one. Not having an applied sciences program is a step back for some of these presidents. (Also, Georgetown is the only Top 25 school not in the AAU.) Financial resources (8%): Enough said. Faculty salaries (8%): Georgetown has less spend per FTE than its Top 15 peers. Full-time faculty (3%): Adjuncts are valuable in DC, but are seen as a poor substitute nearly everywhere else. Student-faculty ratio (5%): Comparable. Standardized tests (5%): Comparable. Faculty research (4%): This is a relatively new category based on citation (research) impact per paper, normalized for field, year of publication and publication type. Georgetown is a teaching institution first and this is likely a lagging indicator. Should Georgetown be ranked higher than Emory or Wash U? Yes. Notre Dame? Probably. Vanderbilt? Maybe. But when you start comparing GU to Berkeley, UCLA or Rice, it's a tougher argument. |
|
RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,803
|
Post by RusskyHoya on Sept 25, 2024 8:55:56 GMT -5
There may have been one or two years of 17 or 18, but for the most part over the last 25 years, it’s been between a high of 19 and a low of 24. With the kind of bounces DFW showed above that don’t really point to an actual trend so much as the constant tweaking of the US News methodology— which are specifically engineered to create changes in the rankings, and therefore interest among college alumni and the public. DFW and I have both in the past compiled the historical rankings year over year. I can't find my post at the moment, but here's one of his: It’s been a slow slide for over two decades now. We are close to dropping out of the top-25, which would be a disaster. Like it or not, many different constituencies value the rankings. Fact check: 1989: 17 1990: 25 1991: 19 1992: 19 1993: 17 1994: 17 1995: 25 1996: 21 1997: 23 1998: 21 1999: 20 2000: 23 2001: 23 2002: 22 2003: 24 2004: 23 2005: 25 2006: 23 2007: 23 2008: 23 2009: 23 2010: 23 2011: 21 2012: 22 2013: 21 2014: 20 2015: 21 2016: 20 2017: 20 2018: 22 2019: 24 DFW is quite correct that the variation has much more to do with USNWR fiddling with the methodology than any changes to facts on the ground. If anyone wants the full historical dataset, you can find it open source at: github.com/frishberg/Archive-of-US-News-College-Rankings |
|
blueeagle
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Win or lose, it's the school we choose.
Posts: 498
|
Post by blueeagle on Sept 25, 2024 9:16:18 GMT -5
In light of Jack's illness (hoping for his full recovery), would there be any interest in reaching out to Susan Hockfield (MIT) or Robert Barchi (neurologist/Rutgers/Penn) given their knowledge and experience in applied sciences and fundraising? Age? Baggage/controversy? Any other possibilities?
|
|
|
|
Post by happyhoya1979 on Sept 25, 2024 9:49:41 GMT -5
On face value, Georgetown should consistently be top 15 or better in these. Have got to do better. On what basis? Here are the metrics used by US News and some comparisons with those top 15 schools (e.g., Ivies + MIT, Stanford, CalTech, Duke, Northwestern, Hopkins and Chicago): Graduation rates: (16%): Comparable with the top 15. Freshman Retention (5%): Comparable. Graduation rate performance (10%): Georgetown's six year number is slightly less than the Top 15 schools, but it's probably not significant. Pell Grant Performance: (11%): As discussed above, GU lags in this category. Borrower debt (5%): The Top 15 schools are increasingly debt-free in financial aid. GU hasn't raised the money to compete here because donors aren't as interested. College grads earning more than a high school graduate (5%): Comparable. (GU average salaries are higher than the Top 15 in this metric--probably top 4.) Peer assessment (20%): Ah, the great differentiator. The college presidents who fill this out anonymously are simply not putting Georgetown ahead of the lower tier Ivies or Chicago on this one. Not having an applied sciences program is a step back for some of these presidents. (Also, Georgetown is the only Top 25 school not in the AAU.) Financial resources (8%): Enough said. Faculty salaries (8%): Georgetown has less spend per FTE than its Top 15 peers. Full-time faculty (3%): Adjuncts are valuable in DC, but are seen as a poor substitute nearly everywhere else. Student-faculty ratio (5%): Comparable. Standardized tests (5%): Comparable. Faculty research (4%): This is a relatively new category based on citation (research) impact per paper, normalized for field, year of publication and publication type. Georgetown is a teaching institution first and this is likely a lagging indicator. Should Georgetown be ranked higher than Emory or Wash U? Yes. Notre Dame? Probably. Vanderbilt? Maybe. But when you start comparing GU to Berkeley, UCLA or Rice, it's a tougher argument. It is too bad there is not a category for Awards and Fellowships. The way we have been dominating the Fulbright and President Management Fellow awards the last several years, and with our recent Marshall and Rhodes success, we have a performance that may be top 5 level if there was such a metric. Also, if there was a National Leadership Alumni category (President, VP, Congress, Supreme Court, Cabinet) rating as Tony Allimore has compiled, we would be at the very top as well. If this were expanded to International Leadership our representation among royalty and other sundry Heads of State is also at the very top. Attachments:
|
|
