The Voice: "What happened to Georgetown football?"

[RusskyHoya]

A decent history, as such things go, with some quotes from DFW HOYA: georgetownvoice.com/2024/08/30/what-happened-to-georgetown-football/

Maybe they were trying to get up a word limit, but the one thing that seems most notably absent is a treatment of the widespread discontinuation of football by Catholic schools, many of which  never returned or only returned in a manner similar to Georgetown (more than a few of which were also ultimately discontinued).

[hoyaguy]

So, pardon the ignorance, but what would be wrong with moving to a league has no scholarships and includes Butler (Pioneer League)? I’d imagine it’s appealing to the administration to join a league that would put any possible mention of potential football scholarships or NIL to bed.

[DFW HOYA]

Sept 3, 2024 12:49:26 GMT -5 hoyaguy said:

So, pardon the ignorance, but what would be wrong with moving to a league has no scholarships and includes Butler (Pioneer League)? I’d imagine it’s appealing to the administration to join a league that would put any possible mention of potential football scholarships or NIL to bed.

Pardon the reference, but the Pioneer League does not fit the ethos and culture of Georgetown. Why?

1. The aims of the Georgetown football program are largely regional (i.e. Northeast) and among peer institutions (PL, Ivy). The Pioneer is none of this. One of its 11 teams are in the Northeast (Marist) and the bulk of schools are in a hodge-podge ranging from California to Kentucky, Florida to Minnesota. No one is confusing Morehead State with Holy Cross. Just because Georgetown has fared poorly with the PL in the past does not mean it cannot improve in the future.

Here are the schools and accept rates of the Pioneer schools outside of Davidson. Who are the peers here?

San Diego: 53%
Presbyterian: 59%
Marist: 63%
Drake: 67%
Dayton: 74%
St. Thomas 77%
Butler: 82%
Morehead St.: 84%
Stetson: 94%
Valparaiso: 94%

2. The travel costs to many of these these markets is significant and for little or no Georgetown community in these cities.

3. The word "nonscholarship" gets tossed around, but the term differs between the Patriot and Pioneer. Georgetown offers no athletic grants in aid (football scholarships) but like the pre-2012 Patriot League can offer preferential aid (buying out the student loan portion of the aid offer). The Pioneer offers no athletic grants in aid and all money must come from the financial aid office....HOWEVER all the Pioneer schools offer merit aid in the form of academic grants: for example, a $30,000 grant to a football applicant with a 3.8 GPA. Georgetown does not and will not do this. Georgetown would not be able to offer any preferential aid under the Pioneer formula.

3A. Who is Georgetown competing against for players? Cornell, Brown, Lehigh, Holy Cross, among others. Pioneer schools do not compete for Ivy level students and vice versa.

4. Pioneer schools are rarely competitive outside their own cohort. Davidson won shares of three PFL titles from 2020 through 2022 yet has won just one game outside the PFL since 2005 to any Division I team. Nearly all its non-conference wins come against Division II and NAIA teams in North Carolina--again, not a direction Georgetown seeks to take. The talent and coaching level between the Patriot and Pioneer is visibly different as seen Saturday.

4A. In an 11 game season, the Pioneer only allows three non-conference games a year, most in the first three weeks of the season. The Ivy League doesn't play until week 3, so they rarely play Ivy schools at all.

5. Just because Butler is in a conference does not designate a competitive connection. Villanova is in the CAA and Georgetown doesn't fit there, either.

6. Fundraising, which covers a significant portion of football's costs, would plummet.

I'm sure someone could make the case that Georgetown could play in the MEAC too, but it's not a fit. Neither is the Pioneer.

PS: NIL is NOT against the rules in either conference. The Supreme Court basically opened up NIL to anyone and everyone.

[hoyaguy]

Sept 3, 2024 13:30:57 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Sept 3, 2024 12:49:26 GMT -5 hoyaguy said:

So, pardon the ignorance, but what would be wrong with moving to a league has no scholarships and includes Butler (Pioneer League)? I’d imagine it’s appealing to the administration to join a league that would put any possible mention of potential football scholarships or NIL to bed.

Pardon the reference, but the Pioneer League does not fit the ethos and culture of Georgetown. Why?

1. The aims of the Georgetown football program are largely regional (i.e. Northeast) and among peer institutions (PL, Ivy). The Pioneer is none of this. One of its 11 teams are in the Northeast (Marist) and the bulk of schools are in a hodge-podge ranging from California to Kentucky, Florida to Minnesota. No one is confusing Morehead State with Holy Cross. Just because Georgetown has fared poorly with the PL in the past does not mean it cannot improve in the future.

Here are the schools and accept rates of the Pioneer schools outside of Davidson. Who are the peers here?

San Diego: 53%
Presbyterian: 59%
Marist: 63%
Drake: 67%
Dayton: 74%
St. Thomas 77%
Butler: 82%
Morehead St.: 84%
Stetson: 94%
Valparaiso: 94%

2. The travel costs to many of these these markets is significant and for little or no Georgetown community in these cities.

3. The word "nonscholarship" gets tossed around, but the term differs between the Patriot and Pioneer. Georgetown offers no athletic grants in aid (football scholarships) but like the pre-2012 Patriot League can offer preferential aid (buying out the student loan portion of the aid offer). The Pioneer offers no athletic grants in aid and all money must come from the financial aid office....HOWEVER all the Pioneer schools offer merit aid in the form of academic grants: for example, a $30,000 grant to a football applicant with a 3.8 GPA. Georgetown does not and will not do this. Georgetown would not be able to offer any preferential aid under the Pioneer formula.

3A. Who is Georgetown competing against for players? Cornell, Brown, Lehigh, Holy Cross, among others. Pioneer schools do not compete for Ivy level students and vice versa.

4. Pioneer schools are rarely competitive outside their own cohort. Davidson won shares of three PFL titles from 2020 through 2022 yet has won just one game outside the PFL since 2005 to any Division I team. Nearly all its non-conference wins come against Division II and NAIA teams in North Carolina--again, not a direction Georgetown seeks to take. The talent and coaching level between the Patriot and Pioneer is visibly different as seen Saturday.

4A. In an 11 game season, the Pioneer only allows three non-conference games a year, most in the first three weeks of the season. The Ivy League doesn't play until week 3, so they rarely play Ivy schools at all.

5. Just because Butler is in a conference does not designate a competitive connection. Villanova is in the CAA and Georgetown doesn't fit there, either.

6. Fundraising, which covers a significant portion of football's costs, would plummet.

I'm sure someone could make the case that Georgetown could play in the MEAC too, but it's not a fit. Neither is the Pioneer.

PS: NIL is NOT against the rules in either conference. The Supreme Court basically opened up NIL to anyone and everyone.

Thank you for the thorough response. 

1. The goal of regional for the sake of cost makes sense. If the goal is to be among peer institutions, then that's their decision. I never thought that should matter too much as there is much diversity of academic levels in conferences these days. That is just my opinion though. I think we could get better too, but that would likely require some shifts in thinking right?

2. Again this makes sense though it would only be for 4 away conference games in Pioneer.

3. Thank you for filling that in, definitely harder to find explanations/rules/stuff for FCS leagues than the major football powers. Requiring a major institutional shifted in how it funds students would be a barrier. 

3.A. Again pleading ignorance, why does it matter necessarily that we would be after different students than those in the conference? Fordham hopefuls and Georgetown hopefuls tend to be different academically (at least when I was applying a few years ago, Fordham is a good school no doubt for being a student in the NYC area though my safety at the time). 

4. I mean how competitive have we been with schools from peer conferences or higher recently? We have lost to Northeast and Pioneer Conf schools in the last several seasons when I was an undergrad, and don't generally do well against bigger FCS conference teams. 

4.A. Is that more of a choice of the Ivys or Pioneer teams? If the Pioneer teams are very uncompetitive and/or very far, I'd imagine it would be very unappetizing for the Ivys. If it is more stuff about optics of playing some schools that are closer to peers than not, then that's a different discussion.

5. The Butler thing is more of a loose connection thing than a genuine reason to me lol.

6. Interesting, I am unaware of that section of the Georgetown Alumni base so I will take your word that the fundraising would crash with a move to a less competitive league. Is there unhappiness (or just acceptance) with the current state of realistically not making the playoffs? Is the barrier at this point for getting better just more money or maybe get lucky with a great coach for a few seasons?

And I know NIL works for everyone, but if we resigned to be in one of the "poorer" FCS leagues that would kind of kill any real need/expectation for NIL. Not that I am aware of what is going on with NIL in the current state of Hoya football. 

Edit: How do you feel about the addition of Richmond? 

[thebin]

I have been posting to this board for decades. Unfortunately that means i’m what passes for a hardcore fan of this program.

And i can promise you that I would stop following the team full stop if they downgraded from the PL to the Pioneer league for fb. Maybe not immediately…but soon and for the rest of my life as Rick Blaine once said.

You can safely assume this would be a normal reaction among my Hoya fb alum friends, with whom i am still in touch with about a dozen from the class of 99, for what its worth.

I can’t stress what a deathblow pioneer league membership would mean for interest in this program. Better to shutter it.

[RusskyHoya]

Sept 4, 2024 20:21:46 GMT -5 thebin said:

I have been posting to this board for decades. Unfortunately that means i’m what passes for a hardcore fan of this program.

And i can promise you that I would stop following the team full stop if they downgraded from the PL to the Pioneer league for fb. Maybe not immediately…but soon and for the rest of my life as Rick Blaine once said.

You can safely assume this would be a normal reaction among my Hoya fb alum friends, with whom i am still in touch with about a dozen from the class of 99, for what its worth.

I can’t stress what a deathblow pioneer league membership would mean for interest in this program. Better to shutter it.

I've long said that the raison d'etre of contemporary Georgetown football is... simply to exist, for the same reasons that it exists at our aspirational peers in the Ivy League. The Patriot League offers a kind of Ivy Light identity that serves that purpose in a way that the Pioneer League does not. The CAA might as well, but we're in no position to compete with those schools. So it's Patriot or bust.

[DFW HOYA]

Sept 4, 2024 21:28:36 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

I've long said that the raison d'etre of contemporary Georgetown football is... simply to exist, for the same reasons that it exists at our aspirational peers in the Ivy League. The Patriot League offers a kind of Ivy Light identity that serves that purpose in a way that the Pioneer League does not. The CAA might as well, but we're in no position to compete with those schools. So it's Patriot or bust.

No, that's not it. The program existed long before Bob Benson connected the Ivy League to its expectation set.

This idea that Georgetown can compete in 29 sports but not in one exists inside the mindset at 37th and O.

It's late tonight, more tomorrow.

[RusskyHoya]

Sept 4, 2024 21:48:31 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Sept 4, 2024 21:28:36 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

I've long said that the raison d'etre of contemporary Georgetown football is... simply to exist, for the same reasons that it exists at our aspirational peers in the Ivy League. The Patriot League offers a kind of Ivy Light identity that serves that purpose in a way that the Pioneer League does not. The CAA might as well, but we're in no position to compete with those schools. So it's Patriot or bust.

No, that's not it. The program existed long before Bob Benson connected the Ivy League to its expectation set.

This idea that Georgetown can compete in 29 sports but not in one exists inside the mindset at 37th and O.

It's late tonight, more tomorrow.

The word "contemporary" is in there for a reason. Whatever W. Coleman Nevils, Robert Henle, or Tim Healy thought about football, the view that holds force in the current era is the one I articulated.

We're also structurally non-competitive in other sports - we've got a track & field team with no field events, for Christ's sake!

[Problem of Dog]

Sept 4, 2024 21:28:36 GMT -5 RusskyHoya said:

Sept 4, 2024 20:21:46 GMT -5 thebin said:

I have been posting to this board for decades. Unfortunately that means i’m what passes for a hardcore fan of this program.

And i can promise you that I would stop following the team full stop if they downgraded from the PL to the Pioneer league for fb. Maybe not immediately…but soon and for the rest of my life as Rick Blaine once said.

You can safely assume this would be a normal reaction among my Hoya fb alum friends, with whom i am still in touch with about a dozen from the class of 99, for what its worth.

I can’t stress what a deathblow pioneer league membership would mean for interest in this program. Better to shutter it.

I've long said that the raison d'etre of contemporary Georgetown football is... simply to exist, for the same reasons that it exists at our aspirational peers in the Ivy League. The Patriot League offers a kind of Ivy Light identity that serves that purpose in a way that the Pioneer League does not. The CAA might as well, but we're in no position to compete with those schools. So it's Patriot or bust.

Yes. Either play to win it all or play our friends and buddies. Just scheduling pick up games with randos is not moving the needle for anyone. Clearly we're not going to win it all, so we've made the decision to play with our friends and buddies so we have something to talk about on Mondays.

[DFW HOYA]

Sept 16, 2024 10:25:58 GMT -5 Problem of Dog said:

Either play to win it all or play our friends and buddies. Just scheduling pick up games with randos is not moving the needle for anyone. Clearly we're not going to win it all, so we've made the decision to play with our friends and buddies so we have something to talk about on Mondays.

Average home attendance by sport, fall 2024:

Football: 3,975
Men's soccer: 619
Women's Soccer: 452
Volleyball: 226
Field Hockey: 68

It takes two to schedule. Georgetown football is not a popular team to schedule because 1) it does not count towards bowl eligibility and 2) it wants a home game as part of any series. How many schools are signing up for that?

[bearsandbulls]

Well, they sure sign up for WSOC & MSOC with those even lower numbers...With Hoya FB I think it is the quality of the product that dictates the crowd size. Love Hoya MBB, WSOC, and MSOC and follow and attend when in town, but Hoya FB, nah.

[reformation]

Would think the program gets reevaluated when admin turns over. It seems like the only options are status quo or elimination. I think I could make a good case for either.

[DFW HOYA]

Sept 16, 2024 16:31:14 GMT -5 reformation said:

Would think the program gets reevaluated when admin turns over. It seems like the only options are status quo or elimination. I think I could make a good case for either.

On what basis? Please elaborate.

[reformation]

I'm sure whenever we have new admin all athletics programs will and should get looked at in terms of a simple cost benefit analysis especially considering all the tumult in college sports today. For football, I would guess it has a pretty relatively high cost (for Gtwn) depending on how you count all the admissions benefits to the athletes and the financial aid. Competitively we seem in more or less locked in place at level of lower ivies mid-level PL do not play obviously at the highest level for colleges. Program has limited support outside those connected to the program. For those connected to the program support seems pretty good. We really don't have rivalries writ large. On the flip side what are the costs of continuing/exiting and what would we do with the savings if we got out-allocate to other sports/fin aid/academics. I'd guess if we had to start from scratch, we would not spend the money to get to where we are now. It's not a terrible place but overall seems mediocre.

Only logical/better alt is the Ivy, which is not happening and we kind of have a taste of it currently. I rather see us exit than the Pioneer thing that the article suggests.

My guess is in general a new admin at Gtwn would look to eliminate mediocre programs and concentrate on things we think we can do at a high level.

[DFW HOYA]

Sept 17, 2024 11:48:25 GMT -5 reformation said:

I'm sure whenever we have new admin all athletics programs will and should get looked at in terms of a simple cost benefit analysis especially considering all the tumult in college sports today. For football, I would guess it has a pretty relatively high cost (for Gtwn) depending on how you count all the admissions benefits to the athletes and the financial aid. Competitively we seem in more or less locked in place at level of lower ivies mid-level PL do not play obviously at the highest level for colleges. Program has limited support outside those connected to the program. For those connected to the program support seems pretty good. We really don't have rivalries writ large. On the flip side what are the costs of continuing/exiting and what would we do with the savings if we got out-allocate to other sports/fin aid/academics. I'd guess if we had to start from scratch, we would not spend the money to get to where we are now. It's not a terrible place but overall seems mediocre. Only logical/better alt is the Ivy, which is not happening and we kind of have a taste of it currently. I rather see us exit than the Pioneer thing that the article suggests. My guess is in general a new admin at Gtwn would look to eliminate mediocre programs and concentrate on things we think we can do at a high level.

I would start with this question: what does a sport cost? At a base level, it's 1) operating expenses to run the program, 2) staff (salary + benefits), and 3) scholarships/aid. However, if your criterion is "only sports at which we can do at a high level,", or as someone else suggested, "only sports with which Georgetown could compete for a national title", Georgetown would have six sports: men's basketball, men's and women's soccer, men's and women's lacrosse, and sailing. (If the same standard was held to undergraduate academic departments, Georgetown might be left with the SFS, government, and a couple of business majors.) Georgetown has an English department, a theology department, an accounting department, etc. not because they are at the Top 20 level but because they educate and they add value to the University as a whole. Athletics is the same way.

Football is less competitive not because it can't compete, but Georgetown and the Patriot League have put, in some quarters, unnecessary limitations on its ability to compete. Colgate can schedule Stanford and Lafayette can schedule Duke, but since that wouldn't be sporting at Georgetown, let's call Sacred Heart instead. Allowing the football staff to recruit as every other sport at GU is allowed to will not suddenly turn Georgetown into Auburn on the Potomac: 37th St will not become a row of frat houses and girls will not be donning sun dresses and singing "Dixieland Delight" on the way to Cooper Field. Yet, the soft bigotry of low expectations asks football to "be good, but not that good."

Per the Department of Education, here is the operating cost per athlete by sports at Georgetown. One of these is not like the others and would also raise an uncomfortable question: is the present state of basketball spending relative to its return to the University a long term investment?

Men's CC/Track: $2,096
Women's CC/Track: $2,803
Women's Rowing: $3,560
Men's Rowing: $3,697
Squash: $4,159
Women's Lacrosse: $4,515
Men's Lacrosse: $4,930
Field Hockey: $4,972
Women's Swimming: $5,914
Men's Swimming: $5,915
Men's Tennis: $6,384
Football: $7,312
Men's Soccer: $7,543
Baseball: $7,976
Women's Tennis: $8,156
Men's Golf: $8,351
Women's Soccer: $9,028
Softball: $9,739
Women's Golf: $10,607
Volleyball: $11,968
Women's Basketball: $51,772
Men's Basketball: $293,343

[Problem of Dog]

Sept 16, 2024 11:31:02 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Sept 16, 2024 10:25:58 GMT -5 Problem of Dog said:

Either play to win it all or play our friends and buddies. Just scheduling pick up games with randos is not moving the needle for anyone. Clearly we're not going to win it all, so we've made the decision to play with our friends and buddies so we have something to talk about on Mondays.

Average home attendance by sport, fall 2024:

Football: 3,975
Men's soccer: 619
Women's Soccer: 452
Volleyball: 226
Field Hockey: 68

It takes two to schedule. Georgetown football is not a popular team to schedule because 1) it does not count towards bowl eligibility and 2) it wants a home game as part of any series. How many schools are signing up for that?

I don't see how attendance is relevant to what I said (also, 1) football games are unavoidably in the middle of campus, 2) always on Saturday afternoons, 3) regularly draw large opponent fanbases, and 4) our attendance numbers have for years been questionable, at best, including our most recent home game).

[WilsonBlvdHoya]

Sept 17, 2024 13:20:04 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Sept 17, 2024 11:48:25 GMT -5 reformation said:

I'm sure whenever we have new admin all athletics programs will and should get looked at in terms of a simple cost benefit analysis especially considering all the tumult in college sports today. For football, I would guess it has a pretty relatively high cost (for Gtwn) depending on how you count all the admissions benefits to the athletes and the financial aid. Competitively we seem in more or less locked in place at level of lower ivies mid-level PL do not play obviously at the highest level for colleges. Program has limited support outside those connected to the program. For those connected to the program support seems pretty good. We really don't have rivalries writ large. On the flip side what are the costs of continuing/exiting and what would we do with the savings if we got out-allocate to other sports/fin aid/academics. I'd guess if we had to start from scratch, we would not spend the money to get to where we are now. It's not a terrible place but overall seems mediocre. Only logical/better alt is the Ivy, which is not happening and we kind of have a taste of it currently. I rather see us exit than the Pioneer thing that the article suggests. My guess is in general a new admin at Gtwn would look to eliminate mediocre programs and concentrate on things we think we can do at a high level.

I would start with this question: what does a sport cost? At a base level, it's 1) operating expenses to run the program, 2) staff (salary + benefits), and 3) scholarships/aid. However, if your criterion is "only sports at which we can do at a high level,", or as someone else suggested, "only sports with which Georgetown could compete for a national title", Georgetown would have six sports: men's basketball, men's and women's soccer, men's and women's lacrosse, and sailing. (If the same standard was held to undergraduate academic departments, Georgetown might be left with the SFS, government, and a couple of business majors.) Georgetown has an English department, a theology department, an accounting department, etc. not because they are at the Top 20 level but because they educate and they add value to the University as a whole. Athletics is the same way.

Football is less competitive not because it can't compete, but Georgetown and the Patriot League have put, in some quarters, unnecessary limitations on its ability to compete. Colgate can schedule Stanford and Lafayette can schedule Duke, but since that wouldn't be sporting at Georgetown, let's call Sacred Heart instead. Allowing the football staff to recruit as every other sport at GU is allowed to will not suddenly turn Georgetown into Auburn on the Potomac: 37th St will not become a row of frat houses and girls will not be donning sun dresses and singing "Dixieland Delight" on the way to Cooper Field. Yet, the soft bigotry of low expectations asks football to "be good, but not that good."

Per the Department of Education, here is the operating cost per athlete by sports at Georgetown. One of these is not like the others and would also raise an uncomfortable question: is the present state of basketball spending relative to its return to the University a long term investment?

Men's CC/Track: $2,096
Women's CC/Track: $2,803
Women's Rowing: $3,560
Men's Rowing: $3,697
Squash: $4,159
Women's Lacrosse: $4,515
Men's Lacrosse: $4,930
Field Hockey: $4,972
Women's Swimming: $5,914
Men's Swimming: $5,915
Men's Tennis: $6,384
Football: $7,312
Men's Soccer: $7,543
Baseball: $7,976
Women's Tennis: $8,156
Men's Golf: $8,351
Women's Soccer: $9,028
Softball: $9,739
Women's Golf: $10,607
Volleyball: $11,968
Women's Basketball: $51,772
Men's Basketball: $293,343

DFW makes some important points. Yet, according at least to Niche ratings, there are more than a few departments that are nationally competitive (Top 20 or slightly lower).

Let’s not sell the breadth and depth of GU’s academic offerings short. Yes, it’s no tech or engineering school but it does excel across multiple academic domains….

www.niche.com/colleges/georgetown-university/rankings/

[Nevada Hoya]

or as someone else suggested, "only sports with which Georgetown could compete for a national title", Georgetown would have six sports: men's basketball, men's and women's soccer, men's and women's lacrosse, and sailing. (If the same standard was held to undergraduate academic departments, Georgetown might be left with the SFS, government, and a couple of business majors.) Georgetown has an English department, a theology department, an accounting department, etc. not because they are at the Top 20 level but because they educate and they add value to the University as a whole. Athletics is the same way.


I would argue women's cross country might have another try at a national title. Some of the runners on our XC team this year think they might have a chance of another national title (like in 2011).

Also, what has been mentioned above, the track and field teams do have two field events on their roster: long and triple jumps. No implement events at all.

[reformation]

TBH pretty skeptical re the #'s above really represent the real relative cost of the programs if one were to fully cost each program (track/XC seem very low considering they are fully funded in terms of scholarships-same with volleyball). I've seen some of the real #'s for one of the sports a number of years back and they only loosely correlated to the reported #'s DFW cited. The idea that any new admin will not look at the athletic program (at pretty much any university nowadays) is not real world.

Even taking the relative #'s posted by DFW as a given, a few programs stand out immediately: volleyball/softball for ex having a bad ROI, i.e., high-cost vs relatively noncompetitive programs. Other places of questionable value would probably be tennis, golf, baseball historically, maybe not this year. Looking at these sports analytically one might decide to add $ to some and maybe take resources away from others.

I think DFW's take on where we can be nationally competitive is too narrow--TBH track and XC as Nevada says is already nationally elite. We won an ind NCAA title this year for ex in men's track! I think a good place to start in terms of looking where we could be nationally competitive (excepting men's BB) is just to look at the Ivies--our closest comp and to what Gtwns likely upside is per sport if we wanted to resource specific sports in a nationally competitive way. For ex, if we wanted to give scholarships for rowing and field hockey and had top coaches, we could be highly competitive nationally. No way we'd be competitive in baseball, softball, volleyball etc. Most major schools reevaluate sports resource allocations periodically.

As far as football goes the ivies have traditional rivalries and a lot more resources than we do. I get that doesn't mean we can't just continue the status quo but I can't believe it won't be reviewed seriously whenever we have a change at the top. 

[DFW HOYA]

Sept 19, 2024 0:17:00 GMT -5 reformation said:

TBH pretty skeptical re the #'s above really represent the real relative cost of the programs if one were to fully cost each program (track/XC seem very low considering they are fully funded in terms of scholarships-same with volleyball). I've seen some of the real #'s for one of the sports a number of years back and they only loosely correlated to the reported #'s DFW cited. The idea that any new admin will not look at the athletic program (at pretty much any university nowadays) is not real world.

Operating expenses are net of scholarships and are usually defined as game-day (or in track's case, meet-day) travel and expenses. A low figure would not be unusual for meet-based sports.

surveys.ope.ed.gov/athletics2023/wwwroot/documents/OperatingExpenses.pdf