A Lament

[78HOYA78]

Yes - Macklin should have gotten more PT in general at GT.

[MCIGuy]

Aug 11, 2024 21:45:19 GMT -5 madmike said:

Aug 11, 2024 18:25:52 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

I don’t blame the team. I blame the offense put in place by the coach. And if you ever listened to podcast conversations by those players year later they tend to question an offensive scheme that shackled them.

You mean the coach and offense that got us to the final four a year earlier? Laughable how this board d forgets the run we had with jt3. We were consistently a top 10 team. Brought in top recruits. Last few years were rough but this program has been unwatchable since he was run out of town.

I don't know how long you've been around these parts , but I have not forgotten anything. I was making complaints about III's offense before and after we made the Final Four. In retrospect he had that one great run but that close call against Vanderbilt could have meant just as easily that his teams never went deep. And last few years? Before his two final seasons of not going anywhere he had about five to six seasons before then in which we had extremely high seeds but failed to make it past the first day or even the first weekend. Those results kind of negated that Final Four run. I know many of you miss III to death and I get that. Obviously we had far more regular season success. But the guy's inability to coach a real offense meant his teams were in trouble whenever some 12th seed got a six point lead. Apparently a lot of you forgot about that. III was in position to make Gtown as successful as Jay Wright did at Villanova once the new Big East formed. That's another thing many of you seem to forget. Instead III, despite all his bluster of saying that the new Big East should be referred to as the "Georgetown Conference" (or something like that), felt flat on his face.

[MCIGuy]

Aug 12, 2024 8:00:51 GMT -5 EtomicB said:

Aug 11, 2024 13:09:39 GMT -5 hoya9797 said:

We were up by 16 with 15 mins to play. The style of offense was just fine. It was turnovers and fouls (especially on Roy) that was the differnece. Curry and the point guard made about a million free throws in the second half. Curry didn’t really play all that well but he did make a lot of free throws.

Gtown lost the FT battle 24-8.

Old heads remember RDF going off for weeks over JT3 not going with Vernon Macklin over Hibbert in the 2nd half after Macklin played very well in the 1st half especially defensively

RDF went off on III in so many other areas, much of that stuff he would share with me through PMs.

[aleutianhoya]

Aug 12, 2024 9:27:38 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Aug 11, 2024 21:45:19 GMT -5 madmike said:

You mean the coach and offense that got us to the final four a year earlier? Laughable how this board d forgets the run we had with jt3. We were consistently a top 10 team. Brought in top recruits. Last few years were rough but this program has been unwatchable since he was run out of town.

I don't know how long you've been around these parts , but I have not forgotten anything. I was making complaints about III's offense before and after we made the Final Four. In retrospect he had that one great run but that close call against Vanderbilt could have meant just as easily that his teams never went deep. And last few years? Before his two final seasons of not going anywhere he had about five to six seasons before then in which we had extremely high seeds but failed to make it past the first day or even the first weekend. Those results kind of negated that Final Four run. I know many of you miss III to death and I get that. Obviously we had far more regular season success. But the guy's inability to coach a real offense meant his teams were in trouble whenever some 12th seed got a six point lead. Apparently a lot of you forgot about that. III was in position to make Gtown as successful as Jay Wright did at Villanova once the new Big East formed. That's another thing many of you seem to forget. Instead III, despite all his bluster of saying that the new Big East should be referred to as the "Georgetown Conference" (or something like that), felt flat on his face.

Ten straight years without a sweet sixteen after making the FF and S16 in consecutive years. Those are facts and they are indisputable.

But it's a bridge too far to say that they "kind of negated" the FF run. Flags fly forever. Period. And, sure, they very nearly lost to Vandy (and had a rough one with BC too), but you don't get dinged for something that happens to most FF teams.

[Ranch Dressing]

Several key upset criteria coalesced around that game. You can add Davidson being criminally under-seeded as one element. I believe they were a 10 seed when they probably should have been a 5 or 6.

Add in as well that it was a de facto home game for Davidson.

As discussed above, Curry's next-level NBA talent and ability to hit clutch, covered 3s from distance was the in-game killer.

That loss stung painfully for me, enough where I consider it among my Top 5 most excruciating Hoya losses:

Iowa 1980
UNC 1982
Villanova 1985
UCONN 1996
Davidson 2008

[Filo]

Aug 12, 2024 10:31:48 GMT -5 Ranch Dressing said:

Several key upset criteria coalesced around that game. You can add Davidson being criminally under-seeded as one element. I believe they were a 10 seed when they probably should have been a 5 or 6.

Add in as well that it was a de facto home game for Davidson.

As discussed above, Curry's next-level NBA talent and ability to hit clutch, covered 3s from distance was the in-game killer.

That loss stung painfully for me, enough where I consider it among my Top 5 most excruciating Hoya losses:

Iowa 1980
UNC 1982
Villanova 1985
UCONN 1996
Davidson 2008

Wow, FGCU didn't even make your top 5! I was there for that game and it may be number 2 for me. Excruciatingly humiliating.

[dariantownesvanzandt]

Aug 12, 2024 10:49:53 GMT -5 Filo said:

Aug 12, 2024 10:31:48 GMT -5 Ranch Dressing said:

Several key upset criteria coalesced around that game. You can add Davidson being criminally under-seeded as one element. I believe they were a 10 seed when they probably should have been a 5 or 6.

Add in as well that it was a de facto home game for Davidson.

As discussed above, Curry's next-level NBA talent and ability to hit clutch, covered 3s from distance was the in-game killer.

That loss stung painfully for me, enough where I consider it among my Top 5 most excruciating Hoya losses:

Iowa 1980
UNC 1982
Villanova 1985
UCONN 1996
Davidson 2008

Wow, FGCU didn't even make your top 5! I was there for that game and it may be number 2 for me. Excruciatingly humiliating.

Very tough one.

WVU + Ohio 2010 in a single week was pretty rough too.

Other fabulous memories:
Providence 1987 (Nova II)
Duke 1989 (The transfer of power)
Rutgers 1979 (Jamming James Bailey monster dunks)
UNLV 1991 (if Zo doesn't get into foul trouble, we could've beaten them and helped halt the slide to 90s irrelevance)

[hoyasaxa2003]

Among the JT3 losses, Ohio and FGCU were really the worst.

While losing to Davidson was bad (especially since that Georgetown team had so much talent and likely could have made a run pretty far into the field), as people have mentioned above, you had Davidson criminally underseeded, Curry, Hibbert getting into foul trouble, and it essentially being a home game for Davidson, even though Georgetown was the 2 seed. Some of that is simply bad bracket luck. And with VCU, not only did that team make the Final Four, but Chris Wright wasn't even close to 100% having broken his wrist. So I can live with those two.

But FGCU and Ohio are really tough to live with. There are no excuses for those, we were really bad and those losses should not have happened. What could have been. Oh well. Time to look forward and hope Cooley can get it done where our previous coaches did not.

[SFHoya99]

If we're going to talk the Davidson game, we're going to need to talk the 2-3 fouls Roy got for simply being tall.

[jwp91]

Not that any of us are bitter about that Davidson loss...

[kghoya]

Felt bad that Hibbert came back for his senior season to be officiated like that in the postseason.

[Ranch Dressing]

Aug 12, 2024 10:49:53 GMT -5 Filo said:

Aug 12, 2024 10:31:48 GMT -5 Ranch Dressing said:

Several key upset criteria coalesced around that game. You can add Davidson being criminally under-seeded as one element. I believe they were a 10 seed when they probably should have been a 5 or 6.

Add in as well that it was a de facto home game for Davidson.

As discussed above, Curry's next-level NBA talent and ability to hit clutch, covered 3s from distance was the in-game killer.

That loss stung painfully for me, enough where I consider it among my Top 5 most excruciating Hoya losses:

Iowa 1980
UNC 1982
Villanova 1985
UCONN 1996
Davidson 2008

Wow, FGCU didn't even make your top 5! I was there for that game and it may be number 2 for me. Excruciatingly humiliating.

FGCU might be among my "First 4 Out."

Honestly, I think it might qualify as the most embarrassing loss in program history. But the stakes in that game were not as high as the ones mentioned in my Top 5. The higher the stakes, for me, the higher the pain. And Davidson was a game I thought we were going to win (I think our 2008 team was stronger than our 2013 team) and it contained an epic, death by a thousand cuts, slow-bleed, we could see it slipping away, utter collapse. It contains all the hallmarks of loss pain.

FGCU we got run out of the gym. After 12 minutes, I was like, "we're going to lose this game."

[SSHoya]

Iowa 80 for me - was the only one I saw in person.

I usually refuse to watch broadcast games with other than Hoya fans. Made an exception for FGCU because I figured it was in the bag. Boy, did I regret that. A Louisville fan and a Tar Heel fan also there. PTSD still. ..

[sportsastroguy]

Aug 12, 2024 7:36:55 GMT -5 78HOYA78 said:

Also - have you heard of Davidson and Curry during that year (not me). Could have been a lack of scouting and poor preparation. Either way - that game made Curry a household name. The Olympics made me realize how great of shooter he is and how hard he is to guard.

yes. There was buzz surrounding him. I remember it. I believe he was chasing some sort of record if I recall. Even if not I remember hearing about him.

[sportsastroguy]

Aug 12, 2024 10:49:53 GMT -5 Filo said:

Aug 12, 2024 10:31:48 GMT -5 Ranch Dressing said:

Several key upset criteria coalesced around that game. You can add Davidson being criminally under-seeded as one element. I believe they were a 10 seed when they probably should have been a 5 or 6.

Add in as well that it was a de facto home game for Davidson.

As discussed above, Curry's next-level NBA talent and ability to hit clutch, covered 3s from distance was the in-game killer.

That loss stung painfully for me, enough where I consider it among my Top 5 most excruciating Hoya losses:

Iowa 1980
UNC 1982
Villanova 1985
UCONN 1996
Davidson 2008

Wow, FGCU didn't even make your top 5! I was there for that game and it may be number 2 for me. Excruciatingly humiliating.

This points to what I'd been saying JTIII s years the team wasn't mentally or athletically strong enough in crunch time on big stages. They never had enforcer types. The offense was fine. They outsmarted their way to several top 10 rankings over several seasons. Also most times they were not shiny enough at the two guard spots over the years JTiii was a heckuva coach having held his own against the likes of Pitino Wright and Boeheim. But the repeated lack of street toughness when it was needed sealed his fate

[kghoya]

Aug 12, 2024 14:33:03 GMT -5 sportsastroguy said:

Aug 12, 2024 10:49:53 GMT -5 Filo said:

Wow, FGCU didn't even make your top 5! I was there for that game and it may be number 2 for me. Excruciatingly humiliating.

This points to what I'd been saying JTIII s years the team wasn't mentally or athletically strong enough in crunch time on big stages. They never had enforcer types. The offense was fine. They outsmarted their way to several top 10 rankings over several seasons. Also most times they were not shiny enough at the two guard spots over the years JTiii was a heckuva coach having held his own against the likes of Pitino Wright and Boeheim. But the repeated lack of street toughness when it was needed sealed his fate

Looking back getting that team to a 2 seed is a hall of fame type achievement. Then crashing out in that fashion was a fireable offense.

[hoyasaxaphone]

JTIII's teams suffered from the inability/unwillingness of a lead player to put the team on their back and carry the team to victory during difficult times (whether against good opponents or bad opponents). IMHO, this comes down to JTIII's offensive philosophy which was team first - perhaps to the detriment of the team's best/better players. It was a system that worked well 99% of the time....but led to losses during crunch times. Jeff Green getting just 5 shots against Ohio State is really hard to accept - despite Ohio State's obvious plan to take him out of the game. Sure.....if others (particularly Summers) had filled the void, the plan would have worked....but they didn't and it didn't. Against FGSU, the team looked like deer in the headlights from the get go with no one prepared to step up and shut it down.

I'm not sure that JTIII's teams were soft.....just designed and encouraged to be "leaderless".

[SFHoya99]

Aug 13, 2024 11:04:30 GMT -5 hoyasaxaphone said:

JTIII's teams suffered from the inability/unwillingness of a lead player to put the team on their back and carry the team to victory during difficult times (whether against good opponents or bad opponents). IMHO, this comes down to JTIII's offensive philosophy which was team first - perhaps to the detriment of the team's best/better players. It was a system that worked well 99% of the time....but led to losses during crunch times. Jeff Green getting just 5 shots against Ohio State is really hard to accept - despite Ohio State's obvious plan to take him out of the game. Sure.....if others (particularly Summers) had filled the void, the plan would have worked....but they didn't and it didn't. Against FGSU, the team looked like deer in the headlights from the get go with no one prepared to step up and shut it down.

I'm not sure that JTIII's teams were soft.....just designed and encouraged to be "leaderless".

That's not really true. Aside from that Ohio State game, those early JTIII teams were pretty ice cold. I remember in early 2007-08, when we played a high ranked Alabama and beat them, their players and coach were astounded as how ruthless we were down the stretch.

And we might have won that Ohio State game if not for that bull call on Roy on the break. Our biggest disadvantage early was the NCAA tournament's reffing proclivity to limit big men. If people recall correctly, both Roy and Oden were hampered in that game by ticky tack bull by terrible NCAA refs.

There's no doubt the slow pace allows for a larger upset chance.

But JTIII was a very good coach that Hoya fans couldn't appreciate and actually hurt in local recruiting because they can't seem to understand the '80s are long gone. In the end, it was some poor recruiting decisions, too many transfers and an inability to adjust on defense that got JTIII, and I think a lot of that had to do with changed priorities after his wife's bout with cancer.

[MCIGuy]

Aug 13, 2024 11:29:14 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Aug 13, 2024 11:04:30 GMT -5 hoyasaxaphone said:

JTIII's teams suffered from the inability/unwillingness of a lead player to put the team on their back and carry the team to victory during difficult times (whether against good opponents or bad opponents). IMHO, this comes down to JTIII's offensive philosophy which was team first - perhaps to the detriment of the team's best/better players. It was a system that worked well 99% of the time....but led to losses during crunch times. Jeff Green getting just 5 shots against Ohio State is really hard to accept - despite Ohio State's obvious plan to take him out of the game. Sure.....if others (particularly Summers) had filled the void, the plan would have worked....but they didn't and it didn't. Against FGSU, the team looked like deer in the headlights from the get go with no one prepared to step up and shut it down.

I'm not sure that JTIII's teams were soft.....just designed and encouraged to be "leaderless".

That's not really true. Aside from that Ohio State game, those early JTIII teams were pretty ice cold. I remember in early 2007-08, when we played a high ranked Alabama and beat them, their players and coach were astounded as how ruthless we were down the stretch.

And we might have won that Ohio State game if not for that bull call on Roy on the break. Our biggest disadvantage early was the NCAA tournament's reffing proclivity to limit big men. If people recall correctly, both Roy and Oden were hampered in that game by ticky tack bull by terrible NCAA refs.

There's no doubt the slow pace allows for a larger upset chance.

But JTIII was a very good coach that Hoya fans couldn't appreciate and actually hurt in local recruiting because they can't seem to understand the '80s are long gone. In the end, it was some poor recruiting decisions, too many transfers and an inability to adjust on defense that got JTIII, and I think a lot of that had to do with changed priorities after his wife's bout with cancer.

If your team goes down by ten points in the first half of an NCAA game against an inferior foe (by rank at least) and it’s pretty much “game over” at that point because you cannot do what 99% of other top 25 teams do (go on runs by increasing the pace and forcing the action), then I can’t blame the defense alone. The defense was a symptom of III’s controlled offensive strategy. It was rare for the III teams to be blasted off the court by an opponent’s offensive production. What was more common was for the offense to stall so badly that we could not catch up. Players got tight and that got worse over the years as we started to earn a rep as a team that chokes and presumably the players had that work mentally against them when they fell behind. After this occurring a couple of times under III, one would think he would have been able to come up with strategies to combat this. But, nah, it kept happening under his watch. That is lousy coaching. People forget how dispiriting and gut-punching it was to see us as a #2 to #4 seed being upset time and time again during the first weekend of the NCAA tournament. There were numerous memories of long successful runs in the NCAA tourneys thatHoya fans in the late 70s and 80s had that those of us who arrived later never got to have under III except for a couple of instances. That hurt his legacy and ultimately his recruiting because college basketball had become a sport the public pretty much only consumed during March Madness. And based on what rdf, who was well positioned in the AAU events, told me, the recruiting was also hampered by III’s at times distant behavior and arrogant engagement.

[kghoya]

I wonder how long we will all have to live to see this program get another top 4 seed. Tournament flameouts suck but what's been happening for what feels like forever is actually worse.