hoya9797
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,235
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Post by hoya9797 on Mar 21, 2023 9:46:36 GMT -5
He absolutely, 100% wanted to be at Georgetown and made no secret of this to the people making the decision at GU. I don't doubt what you say about him making the case for himself or about him openly lobbying for the job - what I'm skeptical of is whether it was legitimate interest or whether he was going to try to use GU's willingness to pay an inflated salary to push the price on St. John's. I don't think we'll ever know. A lot of people said the same thing about Ed Cooley and the admin's read of that situation turned out to be correct in that Cooley had legitimate interest in GU and that this wasn't a contract ploy. Pitino had a lot of reasons not to leave NYC. It was legit interest and I do know this to be true. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 21, 2023 9:55:47 GMT -5
One can make the argument that Georgetown should have chosen Pitino for a number of reasons - that he's a Hall of Fame coach, that he is a master at turning around moribund programs, he is a good recruiter, that he's cheaper, etc.
But, I say this as someone who wanted Pitino: the reason why Pitino's salary at St. John's is going to be lower than Cooley's is because Pitino is/was damaged goods. Pitino made about $8 million in his last season at Louisville, and had he still been coaching there (or somewhere similar) he would have likely been making $10 million+ by now. Pitino took the massive pay cut to go to Iona simply to get back into college coaching. Personally, I thought Pitino redeemed himself enough to warrant consideration for the Georgetown position. Part of me aches knowing that we could have had him, giving us the best chance at a Final Four or championship in my lifetime, but DeGioia and company wouldn't take it.
But, it's somewhat silly to compare the salaries, unless your point is to show that Pitino was cheaper and a better deal. On that, I agree. But, one needs to recognize the unique circumstances that led to that outcome.
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 21, 2023 10:05:54 GMT -5
Without even addressing the troubles in the Pitino history, I don’t think Pitino was a realistic option if St. John’s wanted him. His current house at Winged Foot is about an hour from St. John’s. He has coached in the New York City area for years. He had a prior relationship with the leadership at St. John’s. Maybe he just is where he wants to be. Given various reporting and the fact that Pitino finalized his deal only after Cooley was officially linked to Georgetown, I think that's unlikely. But, I agree that there are multiple reasons to think that St. Johns and Pitino are a good match. |
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hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboya on Mar 21, 2023 10:48:26 GMT -5
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Post by BeantownHoya on Mar 21, 2023 10:58:17 GMT -5
I can't believe this...there goes another good guy down the drain...he was only at FDU for one season...he promised to build a family...what about the poor recruits that committed to him...his supposed dedication to the university...what a traitor... |
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 15,435
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 21, 2023 10:59:30 GMT -5
He absolutely, 100% wanted to be at Georgetown and made no secret of this to the people making the decision at GU. I don't doubt what you say about him making the case for himself or about him openly lobbying for the job - what I'm skeptical of is whether it was legitimate interest or whether he was going to try to use GU's willingness to pay an inflated salary to push the price on St. John's. I don't think we'll ever know. A lot of people said the same thing about Ed Cooley and the admin's read of that situation turned out to be correct in that Cooley had legitimate interest in GU and that this wasn't a contract ploy. Pitino had a lot of reasons not to leave NYC. I didn't think it was a price push but more to push the St. John's board to change their minds on him. Plus folks didn't know if Anderson would make a run or not this season. Zach B. from the post & SJU message board talk stated the board was against his hire even though the President liked him. Also add in the rumors that his wife was against leaving NY again, thats why he put out the message that 35 states were out automatically. |
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 21, 2023 11:54:55 GMT -5
Pitino is a scumbag and I am glad the school wanted nothing to do with him. I am not a stodgy old man quite yet but come on, this guy literally has a program to get recruits laid! If you wanted him, what you are saying is you are willing to have some of those asterisk wins that were later vacated by the league or the NCAA after the discovery of the shady ways they were obtained. Banging waitresses on restaurant tables while your wife is sleeping at home is one thing, but getting girls for recruits - high school kids dammit - is just beyond what our program should be associated with. Heck, Patrick w his baggage wouldn’t have been hired if he wasn’t a program legend and if anybody could actually remember what he did at the Gold Club. (And really, two blow jobs for an NBA player really isn’t even newsworthy these days.) Pitino is a classic “do anything to win” guy and we need wins, but not so badly that we get in bed w fleas and definitely not w guys who proudly spread fleas wherever they go. Hard pass and glad the school did the right thing w a high character hire. To be fair Pitino also paid for an abortion and was accused of rape at Louisville |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 21, 2023 12:00:26 GMT -5
Shakas run was with Antony Grants guys/recruits. Impressive motivator but has never been able to replicate that run with his own recruits. Kind of like Kevin Ollie winning the National Championship with Jim Calhoun recruits. You have to give Ollie Credit for winning six straight games but there are still questions Guess this can also be applied with JT3’s lone successful post-seasons with Esh’s recruits I have responded to this same point a bunch of times over the years, it just is not accurate. Even though JT3 had to re-recruit Green, I'll give that to Esherick, sure. But Roy Hibbert was NOT super sought after nor was he a high-level recruit. It's not like Esherick bringing him in was some big recruiting coup (and by some tellings, Hibbert was basically a lock to go to Georgetown regardless). And Hibbert was horrible as a freshman and did not improve until he developed under JT3 between freshman and sophomore years. He didn't develop because of Esherick. Other points: Bowman, Cook, and Owens all significantly improved from Esherick to JT3. As did Green and Hibbert, as noted above. The Final Four team also relied a lot on players that Esherick had nothing to do with, especially Wallace, but also Summers, Sapp, Ewing Jr., Rivers, and Macklin. Are we winning a Final Four without them? Unlikely. To me, the only point of "X coach only won with [previous coach's] recruits" is to say that a coach cannot recruit. In other words, with better talent from a previous coach, here was success, but the next coach didn't. The fact is, because of the Final Four, JT3's teams were stacked with talent in 2008, 2009, and 2010, and some of the teams following were really excellent too. Now, they didn't have post-season success (even if they had regular season success), but it's not like in that era JT3 had trouble recruiting. I just think generally this is a bad point to raise for any coach unless that coach has problems recruiting, which wasn't the case with JT3. |
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Mar 21, 2023 12:06:04 GMT -5
Neither III nor Esh deserve the criticism that was thrown their way. III was a great coach. The stars of his best run were recruited by Esherick. That is the way it works- getting a commitment from a gangly Roy Hibbert in 2001 helps to lead to a Final Four in 2007. And while Roy and others deserve credit for his development, the reality is that he was a talented player, who the staff identified very early. It ALL comes back to recruiting. One of the best things III did was bring Jon Wallace.
Plus, while Hibbert was a project as a freshman, he was not that bad. Many may recall the game against Notre Dame (?) in which he had a game-winning dunk and ten points or so. He was not some awful project who could not walk and chew gum at the same time.
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,480
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Post by TC on Mar 21, 2023 12:10:10 GMT -5
Plus, while Hibbert was a project as a freshman, he was not that bad. Many may recall the game against Notre Dame (?) in which he had a game-winning dunk and ten points or so. He was not some awful project who could not walk and chew gum at the same time. LOL There used to be a poster on the board named Ignatius that followed the Little Hoyas during Hibbert's time in high school and constantly would post that Roy Hibbert wouldn't succeed in the Ivy League, much less the Big East. |
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lda05816
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 608
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Post by lda05816 on Mar 21, 2023 12:13:29 GMT -5
Guess this can also be applied with JT3’s lone successful post-seasons with Esh’s recruits I have responded to this same point a bunch of times over the years, it just is not accurate. Even though JT3 had to re-recruit Green, I'll give that to Esherick, sure. But Roy Hibbert was NOT super sought after nor was he a high-level recruit. It's not like Esherick bringing him in was some big recruiting coup (and by some tellings, Hibbert was basically a lock to go to Georgetown regardless). And Hibbert was horrible as a freshman and did not improve until he developed under JT3 between freshman and sophomore years. He didn't develop because of Esherick. Other points: Bowman, Cook, and Owens all significantly improved from Esherick to JT3. As did Green and Hibbert, as noted above. The Final Four team also relied a lot on players that Esherick had nothing to do with, especially Wallace, but also Summers, Sapp, Ewing Jr., Rivers, and Macklin. Are we winning a Final Four without them? Unlikely. To me, the only point of "X coach only won with [previous coach's] recruits" is to say that a coach cannot recruit. In other words, with better talent from a previous coach, here was success, but the next coach didn't. The fact is, because of the Final Four, JT3's teams were stacked with talent in 2008, 2009, and 2010, and some of the teams following were really excellent too. Now, they didn't have post-season success (even if they had regular season success), but it's not like in that era JT3 had trouble recruiting. I just think generally this is a bad point to raise for any coach unless that coach has problems recruiting, which wasn't the case with JT3. I do wonder how the JT3 era goes under today's rules. You have to wonder how many of the current players may have looked at transferring rather than stay and learn the Princeton offense. That alone makes it very difficult to compare his first few years to coaches in today's era. Keeping that roster intact, as well as the recruiting class, was huge for the program and JT3. |
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,674
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Post by guru on Mar 21, 2023 12:17:47 GMT -5
Don’t you get it? People don’t believe you. Not believing vs. not wanting to believe are two different things imho I get it. In this case, given the poster's history, I think it's just that people don't believe him. Not saying Pitino didn't want to come here, just that information from the poster isn't usually trustworthy. |
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CTHoya08
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Bring back Izzo!
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Post by CTHoya08 on Mar 21, 2023 12:17:54 GMT -5
Neither III nor Esh deserve the criticism that was thrown their way. III was a great coach. The stars of his best run were recruited by Esherick. That is the way it works- getting a commitment from a gangly Roy Hibbert in 2001 helps to lead to a Final Four in 2007. And while Roy and others deserve credit for his development, the reality is that he was a talented player, who the staff identified very early. It ALL comes back to recruiting. One of the best things III did was bring Jon Wallace. Plus, while Hibbert was a project as a freshman, he was not that bad. Many may recall the game against Notre Dame (?) in which he had a game-winning dunk and ten points or so. He was not some awful project who could not walk and chew gum at the same time. He literally had a double-double in his first game in a Hoya uniform. www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2004-11-22-georgetown.htmlLook, I'm in the camp that thinks "JTIII only had success with Esh's recruits" is bunk, but the idea that Roy Hibbert was completely useless as a freshman is nonsense. |
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,674
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Post by guru on Mar 21, 2023 12:21:42 GMT -5
Guess this can also be applied with JT3’s lone successful post-seasons with Esh’s recruits I have responded to this same point a bunch of times over the years, it just is not accurate. Even though JT3 had to re-recruit Green, I'll give that to Esherick, sure. But Roy Hibbert was NOT super sought after nor was he a high-level recruit. It's not like Esherick bringing him in was some big recruiting coup (and by some tellings, Hibbert was basically a lock to go to Georgetown regardless). And Hibbert was horrible as a freshman and did not improve until he developed under JT3 between freshman and sophomore years. He didn't develop because of Esherick. Other points: Bowman, Cook, and Owens all significantly improved from Esherick to JT3. As did Green and Hibbert, as noted above. The Final Four team also relied a lot on players that Esherick had nothing to do with, especially Wallace, but also Summers, Sapp, Ewing Jr., Rivers, and Macklin. Are we winning a Final Four without them? Unlikely. To me, the only point of "X coach only won with [previous coach's] recruits" is to say that a coach cannot recruit. In other words, with better talent from a previous coach, here was success, but the next coach didn't. The fact is, because of the Final Four, JT3's teams were stacked with talent in 2008, 2009, and 2010, and some of the teams following were really excellent too. Now, they didn't have post-season success (even if they had regular season success), but it's not like in that era JT3 had trouble recruiting. I just think generally this is a bad point to raise for any coach unless that coach has problems recruiting, which wasn't the case with JT3. Nothing you wrote changes the fact that Hibbert was an Esherick recruit. That's not to say that JT3 did not do a wonderful job with his first few teams. He did. |
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,674
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Post by guru on Mar 21, 2023 12:24:44 GMT -5
Neither III nor Esh deserve the criticism that was thrown their way. III was a great coach. The stars of his best run were recruited by Esherick. That is the way it works- getting a commitment from a gangly Roy Hibbert in 2001 helps to lead to a Final Four in 2007. And while Roy and others deserve credit for his development, the reality is that he was a talented player, who the staff identified very early. It ALL comes back to recruiting. One of the best things III did was bring Jon Wallace. Plus, while Hibbert was a project as a freshman, he was not that bad. Many may recall the game against Notre Dame (?) in which he had a game-winning dunk and ten points or so. He was not some awful project who could not walk and chew gum at the same time. He literally had a double-double in his first game in a Hoya uniform. www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2004-11-22-georgetown.htmlLook, I'm in the camp that thinks "JTIII only had success with Esh's recruits" is bunk, but the idea that Roy Hibbert was completely useless as a freshman is nonsense. Yeah, it's just the narrative that JT3 folks love to push. |
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seaweed
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,739
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Post by seaweed on Mar 21, 2023 12:27:47 GMT -5
Pitino is a scumbag and I am glad the school wanted nothing to do with him. I am not a stodgy old man quite yet but come on, this guy literally has a program to get recruits laid! If you wanted him, what you are saying is you are willing to have some of those asterisk wins that were later vacated by the league or the NCAA after the discovery of the shady ways they were obtained. Banging waitresses on restaurant tables while your wife is sleeping at home is one thing, but getting girls for recruits - high school kids dammit - is just beyond what our program should be associated with. Heck, Patrick w his baggage wouldn’t have been hired if he wasn’t a program legend and if anybody could actually remember what he did at the Gold Club. (And really, two blow jobs for an NBA player really isn’t even newsworthy these days.) Pitino is a classic “do anything to win” guy and we need wins, but not so badly that we get in bed w fleas and definitely not w guys who proudly spread fleas wherever they go. Hard pass and glad the school did the right thing w a high character hire. To be fair Pitino also paid for an abortion and was accused of rape at Louisville Oh, but he gets wins man! I am sick of the not so Casual hyping of and fawning over this dirt bag. |
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bluechi
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 707
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Post by bluechi on Mar 21, 2023 12:27:57 GMT -5
After those years JTIII had some good teams. A few that were top 10
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,598
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Post by This Just In on Mar 21, 2023 12:35:19 GMT -5
Shakas run was with Antony Grants guys/recruits. Impressive motivator but has never been able to replicate that run with his own recruits. Kind of like Kevin Ollie winning the National Championship with Jim Calhoun recruits. You have to give Ollie Credit for winning six straight games but there are still questions Guess this can also be applied with JT3’s lone successful post-seasons with Esh’s recruits It's been a while, but now I remember you. I remember Eagle54 more and followed his posts until he was permanently blocked. Tried to speak up for him and was told he had too many warnings for his posts towards hoyasaxa2004 I remember we used to talk about the state of the program declining under JTIII. You used to post in the game threads, what changed? |
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hoyas315
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Post by hoyas315 on Mar 21, 2023 12:44:42 GMT -5
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EtomicB
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Posts: 15,435
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 21, 2023 12:59:20 GMT -5
I can't believe this...there goes another good guy down the drain...he was only at FDU for one season...he promised to build a family...what about the poor recruits that committed to him...his supposed dedication to the university...what a traitor... So FDU and Iona are in the same conference? |
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