EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by EtomicB on Dec 19, 2021 12:13:37 GMT -5
He shooting 43% on over 100 attempts. He has a green light in my book. Maybe it is because I've been watching the Warriors all these years, but so much of the angst over Kaiden's shot selection feels a bit like "old man shouting at cloud." Yes, he's not Steph Curry. Yes, there are probably shots there that are terrible for him. But the new wave of shooters have also made clear that what people thought was a good shot in 1984 is not really applicable, and there's a lot of good shots now -- or rather, there's a lot of shots now that will drop at 40% that people think are crazy. Given our lack of creators, I'm inclined to let him gun. I also find it super, super weird that when we ran the Princeton -- an offense that, if nothing else, generated really, really good shots even at the expense of other things, people whined and bitched that we were waiting too long for the perfect shot. A lot of these are the same posters. People wanted a free flowing, pro-style offense. We don't have the full complement of players, but this is pretty much a pro-style offense. People want to play fast, to run. That comes with consequences, particularly with college kids. Most of his bad shots aren’t terrible because they’re deep like Curry or Thompson, they’re bad because he’s not even close to set when he shoots them. That 3 he took late in the game when the score was tied was a momentum starter for TCU and a ridiculously bad shot … This really isn’t the thread for it but I don’t understand the thought that this offense is pro style or fast |
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,970
|
Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 19, 2021 13:38:22 GMT -5
Maybe it is because I've been watching the Warriors all these years, but so much of the angst over Kaiden's shot selection feels a bit like "old man shouting at cloud." Yes, he's not Steph Curry. Yes, there are probably shots there that are terrible for him. But the new wave of shooters have also made clear that what people thought was a good shot in 1984 is not really applicable, and there's a lot of good shots now -- or rather, there's a lot of shots now that will drop at 40% that people think are crazy. Given our lack of creators, I'm inclined to let him gun. I also find it super, super weird that when we ran the Princeton -- an offense that, if nothing else, generated really, really good shots even at the expense of other things, people whined and bitched that we were waiting too long for the perfect shot. A lot of these are the same posters. People wanted a free flowing, pro-style offense. We don't have the full complement of players, but this is pretty much a pro-style offense. People want to play fast, to run. That comes with consequences, particularly with college kids. Most of his bad shots aren’t terrible because they’re deep like Curry or Thompson, they’re bad because he’s not even close to set when he shoots them. That 3 he took late in the game when the score was tied was a momentum starter for TCU and a ridiculously bad shot … This really isn’t the thread for it but I don’t understand the thought that this offense is pro style or fast The offense is definitely pro-style. It's not super intricate, but the spacing, the movement, the pick and roll, it's a pretty basic form of what a lot of NBA teams run. I'd have to go back and look at individual shots. But my point was more that shooting has changed, and that with some of these guys, what is a good shot or not differs from the traditional viewpoint. We couldn't create much yesterday -- there were a ton of forced shots from pretty much most players. I think in general I'm more forgiving in this situation simply because we're running an offense that largely relies on individuals to force the defense to react. If we want to go back to the Princeton or a more motion-driven offense, I'm game ... but I don't think people want that. |
|
iowa80
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,407 
|
Post by iowa80 on Dec 19, 2021 13:51:44 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of the above, but have a couple of adds. Yes, shooters will shoot and, as a general matter percentages count in terms of who has a green light. I do not think that adds up to “ we can excuse bad shots from shooters because, well, they’re shooters.” Also, It appeared to me that Pat gave Kaiden less of a leash yesterday.
|
|
SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,970
|
Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 19, 2021 14:05:20 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of the above, but have a couple of adds. Yes, shooters will shoot and, as a general matter percentages count in terms of who has a green light. I do not think that adds up to “ we can excuse bad shots from shooters because, well, they’re shooters.” Also, It appeared to me that Pat gave Kaiden less of a leash yesterday. Maybe not. But I think we need to evaluate Kaiden on a whole, not pick and choose individual shots. |
|
iowa80
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,407
|
Post by iowa80 on Dec 19, 2021 14:18:53 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of the above, but have a couple of adds. Yes, shooters will shoot and, as a general matter percentages count in terms of who has a green light. I do not think that adds up to “ we can excuse bad shots from shooters because, well, they’re shooters.” Also, It appeared to me that Pat gave Kaiden less of a leash yesterday. Maybe not. But I think we need to evaluate Kaiden on a whole, not pick and choose individual shots. Range is not an issue with Kaiden, for sure. He launched one yesterday that was well beyond the line when he was set. I thought “too deep,” and then . . . Swish. I’m mostly talking about the shots that are borderline off balance and doubt his percentage on those is very high. |
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by EtomicB on Dec 19, 2021 16:45:00 GMT -5
Most of his bad shots aren’t terrible because they’re deep like Curry or Thompson, they’re bad because he’s not even close to set when he shoots them. That 3 he took late in the game when the score was tied was a momentum starter for TCU and a ridiculously bad shot … This really isn’t the thread for it but I don’t understand the thought that this offense is pro style or fast The offense is definitely pro-style. It's not super intricate, but the spacing, the movement, the pick and roll, it's a pretty basic form of what a lot of NBA teams run. I'd have to go back and look at individual shots. But my point was more that shooting has changed, and that with some of these guys, what is a good shot or not differs from the traditional viewpoint. We couldn't create much yesterday -- there were a ton of forced shots from pretty much most players. I think in general I'm more forgiving in this situation simply because we're running an offense that largely relies on individuals to force the defense to react. If we want to go back to the Princeton or a more motion-driven offense, I'm game ... but I don't think people want that. Motion-driven for me, please The current team makeup isn't skilled enough to rely on individual effort to generate consistent & more importantly efficient offense IMO. |
|
bostonfan
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,534
|
Post by bostonfan on Dec 20, 2021 8:28:33 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of the above, but have a couple of adds. Yes, shooters will shoot and, as a general matter percentages count in terms of who has a green light. I do not think that adds up to “ we can excuse bad shots from shooters because, well, they’re shooters.” Also, It appeared to me that Pat gave Kaiden less of a leash yesterday. I understand and accept the "shooters need to shoot" mindset and I agree with it to a degree. I think Rice needs to shoot every good look he gets. When his feet are set and he has even a little bit of space, he is a fantastic shooter. When he is rushing and forcing a deep 3 over a tight defender, he is going to shoot an awful percentage and he basically wastes a possession. He is going to be an important piece of any success this team has this year so I don't want him to stop shooting, but he does need to limit some of the bad shots. It looked the the staff sat him down after some of those really tough shots, but when they put him back in they actually ran some plays to try to get him some good looks, and he knocked them down. Other teams know he needs to be accounted for, so getting him open looks is going to be a challenge, but he needs to let the game come to him and not force the really tough ones. |
|
calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,398
|
Post by calhoya on Dec 20, 2021 9:01:45 GMT -5
TO get good looks the ball has to move. Hoyas seem to go into long stretches each game where one or more players try to takeover the game and force shots. It's hard to watch the half court offense when the ball stops. Last year it was Wahab holding the ball forever and never passing it out. This year the post play is still developing but too often you see a guard come down and you can tell he's going to force the shot. Harris can generate ball movement and when he does Rice and Carey get their shots. But watching Rice force 30 foot shots when he's not set or is double-teamed is not going to be a winning experience.
|
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,750
|
Post by hoyaboya on Dec 28, 2021 12:47:59 GMT -5
3. Kaiden Rice, Georgetown | 1.58 THRILL score Rice, Georgetown's 6-7 senior who transferred from The Citadel in the offseason, stands out because he's the highest-ranking player whose school competes in what is traditionally a multi-bid conference, in regards to the NCAA tournament. The player from a multi-bid conference with the next-highest THRILL score is Missouri State's Jaylen Minnett (1.17, 10th overall). Rice is the Hoyas' second-leading scorer at 14.5 points per game and get this, he has taken 101 3-pointers this season compared to just 16 shots inside the arc, meaning 86 percent of his attempts have been from 3-point range. But you can't argue with the results. He's shooting 42.6 percent from deep and just 37.5 percent from 2-point range. www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2021-12-28/mens-college-basketball-stats-we-found-best-3-point-shooters-who-take-fewest-2s |
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by EtomicB on Jan 13, 2022 23:50:04 GMT -5
|
|
vv83
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,333
|
Post by vv83 on Jan 14, 2022 7:20:03 GMT -5
Rice is not a big east level player. He brings nothing but 3 point shooting - his defense and overall offensive game are quite poor. And you have to accept an absurd number of terrible shoots in order to get even the 3 point shooting. He goes beyond being a gunner. He is looking to launch a shot every time he touches the ball within 30 feet of the basket. If he has a sliver of space, the shot is going up - even if it is heavily contested and he is off balance. It is virtually impossible to run a coherent offense with Rice on the floor. He seems like a good guy, and it is certainly fun when he hits a hot streak. But those hot streaks apparently only come along every 4 or 5 games. Our offense has been abysmal when Rice is not hot. When everyone gets healthy - I think we would be well served to put him on the bench and start Holloway, and possibly give Billingsly more minutes. Rice is not a winning player, and there is more upside in giving a big chunk of his minutes to players who have a chance to be part of the future of the program. |
|
|
|
Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 14, 2022 7:30:15 GMT -5
Rice is not a big east level player. He brings nothing but 3 point shooting - his defense and overall offensive game are quite poor. And you have to accept an absurd number of terrible shoots in order to get even the 3 point shooting. He goes beyond being a gunner. He is looking to launch a shot every time he touches the ball within 30 feet of the basket. If he has a sliver of space, the shot is going up - even if it is heavily contested and he is off balance. It is virtually impossible to run a coherent offense with Rice on the floor. He seems like a good guy, and it is certainly fun when he hits a hot streak. But those hot streaks apparently only come along every 4 or 5 games. Our offense has been abysmal when Rice is not hot. When everyone gets healthy - I think we would be well served to put him on the bench and start Holloway, and possibly give Billingsly more minutes. Rice is not a winning player, and there is more upside in giving a big chunk of his minutes to players who have a chance to be part of the future of the program. I agree with the vast majority of this. All I would add and tweak is that he absolutely could be a useful BE caliber player with just a small amount of adjustment. If he is in the game and not chucking up absurd shots, he provides clear spacing value because his player can't help. It makes PNR on his side a lot easier for example. He's a terrible defensive player, no question, and there's no avoiding that. Run the occasional play for him where he gets to run off some screens and chuck it when he gets the pass. Other than that, tell him he shoots when he's open. It's not rocket science. |
|
calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,398
|
Post by calhoya on Jan 14, 2022 7:47:36 GMT -5
You take a player like RIce and adapt your offense to utilize his skillset. The overwhelming majority of his poor shots have come off rushed shots when the kid is not squared up and has a defender in his face. To call these forced shots would be an understatement. Imagine what might happen if we introduced an offense with ball movement and utilized our slashers who drive and almost never kickout the ball to make an occasional pass when they are surrounded by 2-3 players. Every night we watch other teams with mediocre perimeter shooters suddenly morph into marksmen using this strategy against the "no-defense" Hoyas.
|
|
bostonfan
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,534
|
Post by bostonfan on Jan 14, 2022 8:47:38 GMT -5
Rice can be an effective player when he is in a complimentary role, at least at the Big East level. If other teams need to focus on other offensive players and Rice can find open space for his shot, he can help the team. He is not effective if he is trying to do too much and forcing shots. I don't have an issue with the number of shots he takes. If he is open and his feet are set, you want him to shot the ball often. The issue is with the quality of the shots and trying to force things when he is not set and is closely guarded. |
|
|
|
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 14, 2022 10:45:20 GMT -5
I don't have an issue with the number of shots he takes. If he is open and his feet are set, you want him to shot the ball often. The issue is with the quality of the shots and trying to force things when he is not set and is closely guarded. I am sure this is not literally true, but it seems like Rice essentially grabs the ball and chucks it the instant he gets it. Like you, I am fine if he takes a quality shot and is set, but many, many, times he is not and he throws it up anyway. I don't know how much of this emanates from his having played at The Citadel where their pace is absurdly fast. I do think he could be a better shooter if he was more careful on shot selection, but he hasn't displayed that ability so far. |
|
|
|
Post by RockawayHoya on Jan 14, 2022 12:01:44 GMT -5
I'd put improving shot selection at the feet of the staff. Obviously you want to maintain some level of freedom/aggressiveness and don't want to go full JT3 and pass up good shots to get perfect shots. But you work on shot selection with the player and teach him what is a good shot and what is a bad shot. You pull him when there are too many of the bad ones to get across your point. You ride him when there is more good than bad and leave him out there if good shots are being taken but just aren't going down. But the expectation and standard has to be communicated upfront and enforced. To date, it does not seem like the staff has even made an attempt to do that.
I'm not sure what you do about his defense at this point. Aside from communication, it's not like you are going to improve his defensive instinct and motor in the next 8 weeks. He is what he is at this point in his career. The scheme (or lack thereof) doesn't really do him any favors either. If there clearly was a better alternative on the bench, we would have likely gone there already, but there isn't.
|
|
|
|
Post by eastcoastteddy58 on Jan 14, 2022 12:45:41 GMT -5
Rice is not a big east level player. He brings nothing but 3 point shooting - his defense and overall offensive game are quite poor. And you have to accept an absurd number of terrible shoots in order to get even the 3 point shooting. He goes beyond being a gunner. He is looking to launch a shot every time he touches the ball within 30 feet of the basket. If he has a sliver of space, the shot is going up - even if it is heavily contested and he is off balance. It is virtually impossible to run a coherent offense with Rice on the floor. He seems like a good guy, and it is certainly fun when he hits a hot streak. But those hot streaks apparently only come along every 4 or 5 games. Our offense has been abysmal when Rice is not hot. When everyone gets healthy - I think we would be well served to put him on the bench and start Holloway, and possibly give Billingsly more minutes. Rice is not a winning player, and there is more upside in giving a big chunk of his minutes to players who have a chance to be part of the future of the program. vv83 I think you put an end to this thread because you nailed it, Rice needs to come off the bench at best! |
|
Elvado
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,718
|
Post by Elvado on Jan 14, 2022 13:43:05 GMT -5
Rice would be nice to have with you to win pop a shot games. Other than that, not so much
|
|
|
|
Post by trillesthoya on Jan 14, 2022 22:09:28 GMT -5
Rice would be nice to have with you to win pop a shot games. Other than that, not so much For reference, Rice is shooting 25% from three against high major talent. Most of that is shot selection, but he also isn’t a good shooter when well defended (not many people are). Staff seems to be under the impression that the only way for us to win is if Rice is hot, which is the only reason I can see that they continue to play him as much as they do and allow him to shoot as much as they do. This isn’t Kaiden’s fault - if the coaches aren’t going to reel him in then good for him for trying to get his. The onus is on the coach to build a framework and set limits, if they won’t do that the players aren’t going to find that themselves. Between Rice taking horrible shots and Aminu running into five defenders just to miss a layup, the staff is doing NOTHING to actually work towards something on offense, which is why we are having this chicken with its head cut off type offense every night. |
|
dchoya72
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,489
|
Post by dchoya72 on Jan 15, 2022 5:09:03 GMT -5
I don't like his shot selection! He's a sniper and often doesn't shoot in rhythm. If he touches it, it's almost certain he's going to shoot it, from anywhere!
I wish he were a bit more selective.
|
|
