DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jun 26, 2020 18:07:48 GMT -5
Nope, I totally agree with your statement 100 percent. I also appreciate your comment and I wasn't trying to discount what you were saying. I know I wasn't clear in my intentions with my last response and for that I apologize. I just get so fed up with all the negative comments by the posters and I didn't want to go any further with more comments that may spark more negativity. But, I do agree with you and I appreciate that you and I have the same perceptions regarding the negative posters. Everyday I come on the boards to get some news about my beloved team and I am trying my best to comment less and less these days. Except it's not. There are probably 50-60 active posters here who around back from the Ice Age when things were really negative (i.e., Craig Esherick, 2002-04). By comparison, these conversations are the message board equivalent of the Prime Minister's Question Time. And Georgetown fans are notoriously calm by comparison to fan bases which will spend 364 days complaining about last year's outcomes (the original secret sauce of the Paul Feinbaum Show) or fans that will passionately tell you why Nick Saban is letting all of Bama down because he's won only five national titles and not ten. But what do you consider negative? The people that are truly angry over Georgetown's first to worst direction since 2013 have already left the conversation. They vote with their wallets and they don't show up at games and their handles on Hoyatalk are remembered only in passing. There is a segment who is concerned that Georgetown is still playing in the 1980's and has made little effort to reform its approach to the current era. They ask inside the Thompson Center, "does Big John run the show?" as if it's still the days of Marion Barry, Glenn Brenner, Chocolate City, Hoya Paranoia, and Starter jackets for everyone. Except it's 2020 and Georgetown is under .500 over the last five years. Another segment remembers Patrick fondly as a player and thinks he can succeed on his own, with or without the past regime. But fairly or unfairly, he's dug himself a hole after three seasons and these fans are growing frustrated that Georgetown is left chasing two and three star kids in Louisiana instead of a multi-year plan for "rebuilding" the program and the fan base, a phrase Ewing and the basketball office almost never say in public. To that point, neither Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder likes that word, either, and their brands are diminishing over time, too. There are a sample of readers who are the #InPatWeTrust crowd, 110% committed to the coach no matter what he does and no matter what it takes. Not being in the Big East running doesn't mean as much as long as Ewing is out front because of who he is and what he represents. A ten year extension would be fine with them regardless of the record because "it's Patrick" and that's good enough. Others support Ewing heartily as a hedge against the alternative--that if Ewing does not succeed it opens the door to what I call "the uncomfortable conversation": that Georgetown would go outside the John Thompson-approved lineage for a replacement who takes a fundamentally different approach to basketball, top to bottom, and they are not in favor of that. And finally, there are some who are just getting tired of the losing, tired of hearing it at work from the Villanova folks, tired of the same-old same-old approach to home games, worried about the declining Hoya presence at road games the dwindling turnouts at the Garden in March, and wonder why students don't even bother to show up anymore. While supportive, they wonder (some silent, some out loud) if Ewing can really turn this ship around. What do they all have in common? They still SUPPORT the team! The summer soldiers and sunshine patriots aren't around anymore. After the last five years, if you're still reading these pages and setting your watch for when the next game is on FS1, you're committed to this team, but there is less consensus on the "when" and the "how" and, most concerningly, the "if". If you feel that's out of bounds, that's one opinion, but it's an opinion, no more or less. I'll create a new thread for this over the weekend.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jun 26, 2020 18:15:21 GMT -5
While 90% of your post is spot on DFW, if you believe that even the more negative posters remain supportive if Patrick and the program, you are not reading all of the posts. There are absolutely some - granted, a relatively small minority - who pretty clearly are at least silently rooting for Patrick to fail so we can go in a different direction.
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Jun 26, 2020 21:00:02 GMT -5
While 90% of your post is spot on DFW, if you believe that even the more negative posters remain supportive if Patrick and the program, you are not reading all of the posts. There are absolutely some - granted, a relatively small minority - who pretty clearly are at least silently rooting for Patrick to fail so we can go in a different direction. Yeah, I just don't think this is true. If you are here in June talking Hoyas basketball, you generally want the best for the program and that would be wins now. I don't think people on here want the team to lose. They may not be happy with the direction of the program, but that doesn't mean they want to watch the team lose.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jun 26, 2020 21:41:38 GMT -5
Do they actively root for us to lose? You are probably right. Would they live with it if it increases the chances that Patrick would either leave or be replaced? I think some would.
There are absolutely a few posters who are critical of virtually every thing that Ewing does, every recruit we get, every recruit we miss, and who plaster critical posts in every thread when we lose - yet who never show up to post after a win. To me that says a lot.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Jun 27, 2020 6:06:50 GMT -5
There seems to be a segment that while disappointed relishes in the opportunity to be negative like a pig rolling in mud.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jun 27, 2020 8:07:59 GMT -5
In a word, wiShut uplly...
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jun 27, 2020 8:39:33 GMT -5
While 90% of your post is spot on DFW, if you believe that even the more negative posters remain supportive if Patrick and the program, you are not reading all of the posts. There are absolutely some - granted, a relatively small minority - who pretty clearly are at least silently rooting for Patrick to fail so we can go in a different direction. Yeah, I just don't think this is true. If you are here in June talking Hoyas basketball, you generally want the best for the program and that would be wins now. I don't think people on here want the team to lose. They may not be happy with the direction of the program, but that doesn't mean they want to watch the team lose. The fact that we’re even debating it says it all...
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TC
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Post by TC on Jun 27, 2020 10:20:32 GMT -5
I think DFW touched on it, the fanbase and the administration value identity over results or experience or talent. You end up with the fanbase clamoring for a basic patronage system rather than success.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jun 27, 2020 12:40:14 GMT -5
I think DFW touched on it, the fanbase and the administration value identity over results or experience or talent. You end up with the fanbase clamoring for a basic patronage system rather than success. "The fanbase" is overstated. I think it is accurate to say that the majority of Hoya fans are going to require results soon in order to keep supporting Ewing. We can argue over whether he gets 2 years to produce those results in light of the massive defections instead of just one, but I don't believe that most fans "value identity over results or experience or talent". The administration on the other hand . . .
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RusskyHoya
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In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jun 27, 2020 13:09:16 GMT -5
There are a sample of readers who are the #InPatWeTrust crowd, 110% committed to the coach no matter what he does and no matter what it takes. Not being in the Big East running doesn't mean as much as long as Ewing is out front because of who he is and what he represents. A ten year extension would be fine with them regardless of the record because "it's Patrick" and that's good enough. Sorry, this is the image that immediately comes to mind, I can't help it: Others support Ewing heartily as a hedge against the alternative--that if Ewing does not succeed it opens the door to what I call "the uncomfortable conversation": that Georgetown would go outside the John Thompson-approved lineage for a replacement who takes a fundamentally different approach to basketball, top to bottom, and they are not in favor of that. I think DFW touched on it, the fanbase and the administration value identity over results or experience or talent. You end up with the fanbase clamoring for a basic patronage system rather than success. I think it's worth making the subtext text and unpacking what exactly what we're talking about when we say things like "a fundamentally different approach to basketball, top to bottom" and "the fanbase and the administration value identity over results." In that vein, I think it is impossible to view this conversation without looking at the much larger one regarding the state of revenue college sports today and how thoroughly compromised they are in myriad ways, not least morally. Not to go all SFS on everyone here, but I do think that a lot of people's views on Georgetown basketball track with their larger views on college sports in ways that are not dissimilar from how people's overall worldviews are constructed. Specifically, where you fall on the spectrum of the following two questions determines a lot: 1. To what extent is everyone in the system violating either the letter or the spirit of the rules? 2. To what extent are you justified in violating the letter or spirit of the rules governing what is clearly a flawed system? I do think it's true that Georgetown folks are a rulesier (not the same thing as 'more moral') bunch than most, which accounts for a greater propensity to back figures and approaches deemed establishment and safe.
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hoya73
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Post by hoya73 on Jun 27, 2020 13:37:11 GMT -5
I don't think Georgetown is the only school that follows the rules and I believe there are great examples of more recently successful schools that do. I do think that it's consistent with the values imparted by Jesuit educators to stain the rules following side. I do think it's part of the Thompson legacy to follow the rules. Remember the recruitment of Khalid El- Amin? If, and I've only seen scant evidence that the if isn't purely hypothetical, there are "fans" who want us to be coached by the next Will Wade or Sean Miller or dare I say it Coach K, as much an unpunished cheater as any, I don't want to e in the same fan base with them.
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hoya73
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Post by hoya73 on Jun 27, 2020 13:37:41 GMT -5
* not stain, remain
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jun 27, 2020 13:44:02 GMT -5
I don't think Georgetown is the only school that follows the rules and I believe there are great examples of more recently successful schools that do. I do think that it's consistent with the values imparted by Jesuit educators to stain the rules following side. I do think it's part of the Thompson legacy to follow the rules. Remember the recruitment of Khalid El- Amin? If, and I've only seen scant evidence that the if isn't purely hypothetical, there are "fans" who want us to be coached by the next Will Wade or Sean Miller or dare I say it Coach K, as much an unpunished cheater as any, I don't want to e in the same fan base with them. I suppose that I should be clear that I take a very broad view of "the spirit of the rules" and accept the broad range of possible valid interpretations. There are plenty of folks out there - though, I'd eager, few people who would describe themselves as fans - who would consider pretty much every D-I program to be in violation of the spirit of amateur intercollegiate sports. Certainly not Georgetown, former home of Mr. Marc "1.7 HS GPA and somehow failed PE" Egerson (that's not a slam at Marc or his ability to do college/Georgetown level work, btw, just a recognition that the standards for basketball admissions are radically different from the rest of the student body).
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hoya73
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Post by hoya73 on Jun 27, 2020 14:17:00 GMT -5
Even in the heyday of the deflated basketball, there were Thompson-recruited Hoyas who didn't dedicate themselves to schoolwork. There were more examples of basketball athletes who'd never have gained admission to GU and ended up with Georgetown degrees. There are an impossible to count, or know, number of non-athletes from some of the same high schools, especially in DC, PG County and Baltimore, that didn't stand a chance at admission and might likewise have succeeded. So, without claiming perfection in recruiting of student athletes, the term was widely recognized as less of an oxymoron at John Thompson's GU than almost anywhere else in the country.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jun 27, 2020 17:50:50 GMT -5
I think DFW touched on it, the fanbase and the administration value identity over results or experience or talent. You end up with the fanbase clamoring for a basic patronage system rather than success. "The fanbase" is overstated. The fanbase here wants to hire 723 assistants, basically everyone that has ever put on a grey jersey with the exception of maybe Kevin Millen.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jun 27, 2020 20:09:31 GMT -5
Some fans do for sure. But when I see "fan base" I read that to mean the significant majority of the fans. While having a former player as an assistant could certainly be a benefit, especially if it is a DMV alumni, I think many fans realize we need a variety in suits on the bench.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Jun 27, 2020 22:35:32 GMT -5
Alums don't have to be on staff to be involved in the program if they so choose. Not all "involvement" requires a title or a seat on the bench.
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richfame
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Post by richfame on Jun 28, 2020 6:50:26 GMT -5
This Thread has been a good read. I’m one of the people that was happy when Ewing got a chance to coach and I tune into every televised game rooting for a W. I think the optics of all the departures looks awful for this program. I understand why Gardner, Alexander and LeBlank left the team, they got in trouble with the law. Not Ewing’s fault. He treats the guys as men and if they make bad decisions then he can have them on ankle bracelets watching there every move. When Ackinjo left I figured well, just an unhappy kid with a bad attitude or a good kid that wasn’t fitting in....IDK. I’m not in the lockeroom so I gave Ewing a pass. But this Whole Mac situation makes our programs look awful. Why did Mac leave? He was going to get the keys to the castle right? Primary guard running the show putting his talents on display every night for all too see. I still don’t know the reason he transferred?! I get he couldn’t make it in the draft, was advised again G league or overseas yet he chooses to leave us! Looks awful. Even I’m like what the heck is going on here!? I feel like with the student misbehavior, transfers, and the 2-3 star recruits this is as bad as it gets. The optics read like this. Last few years Ewing got some good players. They came, they saw, then they ran out of here at warp speed. Just my observation from a longtime fan in CT.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jun 28, 2020 7:35:13 GMT -5
Alums don't have to be on staff to be involved in the program if they so choose. Not all "involvement" requires a title or a seat on the bench. And some alumni are suited for a seat on the bench...like Austin (and maybe eventually Chris)...
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jun 28, 2020 7:39:55 GMT -5
This Thread has been a good read. I’m one of the people that was happy when Ewing got a chance to coach and I tune into every televised game rooting for a W. I think the optics of all the departures looks awful for this program. I understand why Gardner, Alexander and LeBlank left the team, they got in trouble with the law. Not Ewing’s fault. He treats the guys as men and if they make bad decisions then he can have them on ankle bracelets watching there every move. When Ackinjo left I figured well, just an unhappy kid with a bad attitude or a good kid that wasn’t fitting in....IDK. I’m not in the lockeroom so I gave Ewing a pass. But this Whole Mac situation makes our programs look awful. Why did Mac leave? He was going to get the keys to the castle right? Primary guard running the show putting his talents on display every night for all too see. I still don’t know the reason he transferred?! I get he couldn’t make it in the draft, was advised again G league or overseas yet he chooses to leave us! Looks awful. Even I’m like what the heck is going on here!? I feel like with the student misbehavior, transfers, and the 2-3 star recruits this is as bad as it gets. The optics read like this. Last few years Ewing got some good players. They came, they saw, then they ran out of here at warp speed. Just my observation from a longtime fan in CT. Lol who tf is LeBlank? And that is not why those kids left, or rather the reason they were in “trouble” with the law is more important than just knowing what the “violation” was. Clearly no fault was found by law enforcement and they left after several investigations had concluded, so Coach was seemingly prepared to give them their due process (something many on this board struggle to grasp). Not as black and white as you’re painting it. All Hoya fans should know that.
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