SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 19, 2021 13:35:32 GMT -5
And do a thought experiment. A Black kid walking around with an AR-15, shoots and kills two people. More likely than not he's shot by the cops that night.
Arbery case I believe will end in conviction despite the reverse Batson issue.
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DallasHoya
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Post by DallasHoya on Nov 19, 2021 13:36:45 GMT -5
Not a surprise to anyone who actually watched the trial in any detail vs. reading the media’s accounts of what happened. Prosecutor not great and enough evidence to reach that verdict on self defense. And the sociopath and MAGA GOPers will be gloating. Remember. Ashli Babbitt is a martyr according to the MAGA GOP. Not sure I understand your comment - do you mean you think there was enough evidence to support a guilty verdict or to support the self-defense position? Prosecutor is lucky the judge didn’t declare a mistrial with prejudice after the prosecutor commented in front of the jury about Rittenhouse remaining silent until the trial. Based on what I’ve seen, pretty sure Trump is going to disappointed in the Arbery verdict.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 19, 2021 13:39:34 GMT -5
Prosecutor not great and enough evidence to reach that verdict on self defense. And the sociopath and MAGA GOPers will be gloating. Remember. Ashli Babbitt is a martyr according to the MAGA GOP. Not sure I understand your comment - do you mean you think there was enough evidence to support a guilty verdict or to support the self-defense position? Prosecutor is lucky the judge didn’t declare a mistrial with prejudice after the prosecutor commented in front of the jury about Rittenhouse remaining silent until the trial. Based on what I’ve seen, pretty sure Trump is going to disappointed in the Arbery verdict. I believe there was enough evidence to acquit on self defense. I agree that the prosecutor was just plain bad. I agree on Arbery prediction. See previous post.
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Nov 19, 2021 13:48:21 GMT -5
Prosecutor not great and enough evidence to reach that verdict on self defense. And the sociopath and MAGA GOPers will be gloating. Remember. Ashli Babbitt is a martyr according to the MAGA GOP. Not sure I understand your comment - do you mean you think there was enough evidence to support a guilty verdict or to support the self-defense position? Prosecutor is lucky the judge didn’t declare a mistrial with prejudice after the prosecutor commented in front of the jury about Rittenhouse remaining silent until the trial. Based on what I’ve seen, pretty sure Trump is going to disappointed in the Arbery verdict. Judge didn't declare a mistrial because he didn't need to do anything at that stage. Heck, I don't think defense counsel even wanted a mistrial--it was pretty apparent early on that things were not going well for the prosecution. Judges (at least the good ones) try to let juries do their work for them--standard for appeals courts to overturn jury verdicts much higher than a bench edict, plus he'd just be giving himself more work if mistrial. In any event, nothing stopping the judge even after the jury verdict throwing it out--although I doubt he really would have gone that far.
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hoyajinx
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Post by hoyajinx on Nov 19, 2021 13:55:19 GMT -5
Not a surprise to anyone who actually watched the trial in any detail vs. reading the media’s accounts of what happened. Prosecutor not great and enough evidence to reach that verdict on self defense. And the sociopath and MAGA GOPers will be gloating. Remember. Ashli Babbitt is a martyr according to the MAGA GOP. The fact that this kid is a hero and Ashli Babbitt is a victim tells you everything you need to know about the Republican Party, aside from the whole Trump being an infallible demi-god thing.
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AvantGuardHoya
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Nov 19, 2021 14:06:14 GMT -5
Not a surprise to anyone who actually watched the trial in any detail vs. reading the media’s accounts of what happened. Fair, at least to the first part. The bigger issue is that idiots can walk around parts of this country with an automatic weapon at the ready. hm It's now open season for so-called vigilantes to show up armed at rallies and demonstrations around the country. I pray that doesn't happen, but given today's political atmosphere it seems inevitable. Kyle Rittenhouse, the literal poster boy for the next step in the conservative push back. Lord have mercy!
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Nov 19, 2021 16:49:57 GMT -5
Rittenhouse verdict in. NOT GUILTY across the board. The sociopath will be gloating. Not a surprise to anyone who actually watched the trial in any detail vs. reading the media’s accounts of what happened. Perhaps not, but sadly THIS is the America we live in today:
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Nov 19, 2021 22:18:22 GMT -5
Fair, at least to the first part. The bigger issue is that idiots can walk around parts of this country with an automatic weapon at the ready. hm It's now open season for so-called vigilantes to show up armed at rallies and demonstrations around the country. I pray that doesn't happen, but given today's political atmosphere it seems inevitable. Kyle Rittenhouse, the literal poster boy for the next step in the conservative push back. Lord have mercy! Yep. And Matt Gaetz, another fine Republican who belongs behind bars, said he is going to offer Rittenhouse an internship. Well earned, I'd say. The newest criterium for a Congressional internship. Shoot and kill two people and get acquitted.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Nov 19, 2021 23:41:10 GMT -5
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Nov 20, 2021 1:33:01 GMT -5
They're entirely correct. Especially considering the fact that he wasn't old enough to purchase a weapon like that legally. But, it's still legal for him to possess it. Collectively, just how stupid are we?
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 20, 2021 6:09:15 GMT -5
Money is a poor substitute for the young man's life. The city government of Aurora, Colo., will pay $15 million to settle a lawsuit filed by the family of Elijah McClain, an unarmed 23-year-old Black man who died after law enforcement officers put him in a chokehold while he was on his way home in 2019. The findings of Colorado Attorney General Phil Weiser (D) were severe. Aurora police engaged in repeated abuses against minorities, especially Black people, treated people of color differently from their White counterparts, repeatedly used excessive force, and failed to properly document interactions with the public, according to the investigation. www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/11/20/elijah-mcclain-aurora-police-brutality/?itid=hp-top-table-main
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 20, 2021 6:38:29 GMT -5
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Nov 20, 2021 6:40:09 GMT -5
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Nov 20, 2021 7:05:58 GMT -5
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 20, 2021 8:04:28 GMT -5
The foul odor one encounters when passing through the Low Country town of Brunswick, Ga., hasn’t been lately caused by local pulp mills but emanates instead from the Glynn County Courthouse, where three White men face murder charges in the shooting death of an unarmed Black man. As a White Southern woman all too familiar with the gun-and-pickup culture, I can tell you that few sorts are more frightening if you happen to be alone in the wrong place, such as driving on one of the many back roads crisscrossing the rural South. While I have scores of friends, male and female, who drive pickups and use shotguns for bird or target shooting, there’s a certain kind of White troublemaker who haunts those routes; and everybody around here knows exactly what I mean. www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/11/19/armaud-arbery-and-the-stench-of-vigilantism/
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Nov 20, 2021 10:11:31 GMT -5
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Nov 20, 2021 14:57:21 GMT -5
Fair, at least to the first part. The bigger issue is that idiots can walk around parts of this country with an automatic weapon at the ready. hm It's now open season for so-called vigilantes to show up armed at rallies and demonstrations around the country. I pray that doesn't happen, but given today's political atmosphere it seems inevitable. Kyle Rittenhouse, the literal poster boy for the next step in the conservative push back. Lord have mercy! Of course, it depends on who is rallying/demonstrating and what the vigilante looks like.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Nov 20, 2021 22:25:07 GMT -5
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Nov 21, 2021 8:53:04 GMT -5
A study from December 2015. Some things just never change - and this study is about law enforcement killings, not vigilantes like Rittenhouse and Zimmerman. I am hopeful that the Arbery trial has a different result. Widespread awareness of the recent deaths of several black males at the hands of police has revealed an unaddressed public health challenge—determining the root causes of excessive use of force by police applied to black males that may result in “justifiable homicides.” The criminalization of black males has a long history in the USA, which has resulted in an increase in policing behaviors by legal authorities and created inequitable life chances for black males. Currently, the discipline of public health has not applied an intersectional approach that investigates the intersection of race and gender to understanding police behaviors that lead to “justifiable homicides” for black males. This article applies the core tenets and processes of Public Health Critical Race Praxis (PHCRP) to develop a framework that can improve research and interventions to address the disparities observed in recent trend analyses of “justifiable homicides.” www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4824696/But in America’s courts, law schools and state legislatures, a quieter yet still fitful struggle has waged over the past couple of decades, focused on the central dilemma raised anew by the Rittenhouse verdict: What does a right to self-defense really mean? When can Americans choose to use deadly force? Who gets to decide? “There’s little doubt that the political atmosphere, the Trump phenomenon and the strong emotions connected to it, is playing a substantial role in how juries look at cases like the Rittenhouse case,” said Barry Coburn, a veteran criminal defense attorney and former federal prosecutor in Washington. “One of the magical aspects of the jury system is the way jurors bring their life experience and attitudes into the jury room, and I think the Rittenhouse jury felt they had to strike a blow for his right to defend himself like that.” A study of FBI crime data found that over a six-year period, fatal shootings by White gunmen of Black victims were three times as likely to be ruled justifiable as shootings in which White gunmen killed a White person. www.washingtonpost.com/politics/rittenhouse-trial-legal-analysis/2021/11/20/f0a6b7d8-4a0e-11ec-95dc-5f2a96e00fa3_story.html
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Nov 22, 2021 12:36:54 GMT -5
I admit not previously knowing anything about this Chrystul Kizer matter--but I did read the article and found a few others regarding it. First, the tweeter's commentary is simply false, and is not backed up by either the linked 2019 WaPo article nor other easily found information. Kizer was not held captive by Volar (arguably "emotionally" or "financially" captive, but she certainly was not confined to a basement for a year). Nor has she been convicted of anything to this point in time--the prosecution remains on hold pending review by the Wisconsin Supreme Court of a fairly novel and complex issue. In contrast to the Rittenhouse matter, which dealt with a pretty straightforward self-defense claim (i.e., Rittenhouse claimed that he felt he was in imminent danger of severe bodily harm, he retreated but was pursued, fired his weapon when unable to retreat further--the question for the jury really was whether simply bringing a firearm to a protest is so provocative that it prevents any possible claim of self defense), the Kizer self-defense claim is based on a fairly complex and novel interpretation of a Wisconsin statute protecting victims of sex trafficking. The main issue in the Kizer case is not whether she was in danger of imminent severe bodily harm (the undisputed facts are apparently that Volar tried to force himself upon Kizer, she wiggled free and left the room, returned with a gun, shot Volar and then burned down the house because she saw on CSI that it would aid in hiding evidence). Rather it is a novel application of a Wisconsin statute which permits a defendant to use as an affirmative defense that she was a victim of sex trafficking and the offense committed was as a direct result of the trafficking. Prior to this case, this affirmative defense has mostly been used in prostitution cases (i.e., she may have technically violated prostitution laws, but should not be held responsible because the violation was a direct result of the sex trafficking). It had not, to date, been used as an affirmative defense to a murder charge (i.e., I killed the guy because he was a sex trafficker who victimized me). Apparently, the Wisconsin statute is written broadly enough that it may arguably apply to murder charges, but in many other states these statutes are limited to less serious violations like prostitution, and so its unclear. The trial court judge ruled that Kizer would not be permitted to make an affirmative defense claim under the sex-trafficking statute, finding that the application her lawyers argued for was broader than was intended under the statute. The ruling was immediately appealed (apparently interlocutory appeals are permitted in Wisconsin for this type of ruling)--thus staying the prosecution. The appeals court then reversed the trial court judge--finding that the statute did provide a complete defense to murder charges (although it did not rule on whether Kizer herself met the definition of a victim of sex trafficking). The prosecution then appealed that decision to the Wisconsin Supreme Court, where it is currently pending. Note as well that Kizer has been free on bail for 2 years while this issue has worked its way through appeals. It should also be noted that in both the Rittenhouse and Kizer matters, the prosecution proceeded with murder charges against the defendant, even in the face of self-defense claims. So, at least in comparing these two matters, it would be hard to argue that the Kenosha DA was creating a "different justice system" for black and white defendants. Perhaps it could be argued that the judges treated the defendants differently--for example the Rittenhouse judge forbidding the prosecution from referring to the decedents as "victims". But Judge Schroeder has a reputation in all matters as being a criminal defendant oriented judge, and the "victim" ruling appears to be a standard one for him (see-- slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/11/judge-bruce-schroeder-rittenhouse-trial-villain.html ). And while the trial court judge found against Kizer in her matter, as noted, it was a novel issue for the court, and so far the system appears to be working appropriately as the issue is getting a full review on appeal before Kizer has to stand trial. None of this is to say that there aren't numerous examples of the policing and justice systems working disparately for different groups. But when partisans (of all sides) ignore and/or massage often complicated facts in order to create stylized caricatures of villians and heroes to match their respective political narratives, they are doing everyone a disservice. I suggest a read through of this WaPo essay ( A mentally ill man, a heavily armed teenager and the night Kenosha burned) into the people at the center of the Rittenhouse matter--its a well written reminder that these are humans, not cartoon characters.
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