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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on May 13, 2020 10:52:10 GMT -5
2017
Sodom - 266
Blair - 238
Walker - 223
Pickett - 76
2018
Akinjo - 90
Leblanc - 122
Carter - 235
McClung - 245
2019
Wahab - 136
Igohoefe - 403
Wilson - 290
Gardner - 289
2020
Harris - 394
Clark - 356
Beard - 149
Sibley - 97
Berger - UR
I fear we are all constantly lulled to sleep about the potential of players. Everyone is a diamond in the rough. McClung has way outplayed his ranking for us. I would argue Blair has too. Everybody else at this point, not so much. Wahab has potential and LeBlanc outplayed his ranking freshman year when he got to play. Here is hoping the 2020 class can get it done and that 2021 can hit on guys with a floor in the mid-90's of the recruiting rankings versus a ceiling.
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DudeSlade
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Post by DudeSlade on May 13, 2020 11:20:54 GMT -5
Hard to say when 6 out of 12 of those players transfer out. I acknowledge that's also something to consider related to the coach, but not necessarily about outplaying your ranking or recruiting evaluation.
Out of 12 frosh recruits in the first 3 years, that means we've had:
6 transfers
1 outplay ranking at BE star level (McClung)
1 outplay ranking at BE starter level (Blair)
1 even to ranking at BE starter level (Pickett)
1 even to ranking with potential to outplay ranking at BE starter/star level (Wahab)
2 have not seen enough, but still potential to outplay ranking to contributors (Ighoefe, Wilson)
Out of 6 transfers, prior to transfer:
2 outplayed ranking to BE star level (Akinjo, LeBlanc)
2 appeared poised to outplay ranking to strong BE bench/upperclassmen starter (Walker, Gardner)
2 disappointments (Sodom, Carter) -- even with that, both seemed to have enough potential to contribute if they'd stayed around.
I don't think that shows an inability to identify talent. Retain talent? Absolutely. But if we'd kept our recruits, there's no doubt in my mind we were bound for the NCAA Tournament this year.
Should we be recruiting in the 50-150 range? Absolutely. I still am delusional enough to think we should be playing in the 1-50 range. But with so many Blue Bloods and top level coaches still out there, you have to establish sustained success to recruit that level for more than 1 year. Let's see how Penny Hardaway, Juwon Howard, et al are doing in 2-3 years.
We are definitely in a chicken or egg situation (does on-court success or recruiting success come first?). It seems Pat has pushed hard to achieve recruiting success and hasn't gotten there. Trying to unearth "diamonds in the rough" seems the only path open til we get on-court success. And barring transfers, I think we would have seen it this year. I think this year significantly threw a wrench in the process with the 4 transfers. Coach has got to get it back on track. But I'm actually ok with his talent identification to date. Hopefully this class shows the same or better level of ability, but with more ability to stick around. If this team shows early it can play, I think we are also poised to get a few of those bigger recruits we've all been wanting. Yup, got my blue & gray glasses on even while quarantined.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on May 13, 2020 11:29:09 GMT -5
When we first hired Patrick, there was a sense that it would be a nice boost for our recruiting. I was one of those people who thought it could be a shot in the arm, and that having a 7 foot tall Hall of Famer showing up in high school gyms and people's living rooms for in-homes was going to catch recruits' attention and leave an impression. Others were even more bullish than I was. Many thought that Patrick would come in and immediately re-recruit Tremont Waters, that we'd clean up with players whose parents knew Patrick (for example Shaq's son Shareef), and that kids with Jamaican roots like Isiah Stewart and Kofi Cockburn were practically locks for Georgetown. At a minimum we'd have our pick of the litter among 4 and 5 star big men every year given Patrick's personal pedigree and his years of experience coaching big men at the NBA level.
It hasn't happened. While players-turned-college coaches like Penny Hardaway and Juwan Howard did seem to reap some benefits on the recruiting trail from their NBA name value, it never really happened for Patrick. It isn't truly apples-to-apples as those programs and coaches had some advantages that Patrick didn't when he came in, but I think most would agree that Patrick's name and reputation do not appear to have given us a boost in recruiting Top 100 types compared to his predecessor or to other schools in the Big East.
Which doesn't necessarily mean anything in the end, because the object of the game isn't to land as many Top 100 kids as possible, it's to win games. There's a correlation there, but it's certainly possible to be successful on the court without landing a bunch of high profile recruits. It's completely possible that the 3 star (or less) recruits that make up most of next year's roster are actually good enough players to compete for the Big East. Certainly that's what we're all hoping for, and if it pans out that way it will be a testament to Patrick and staff's ability to identify under-recruited talent AND to develop players and maximize their ability. Which would be a different path to success than I think most of us thought we'd take when we hired Patrick, but it's arguably more sustainable and I think we'd all be just as happy if not more. I am willing to wait to see how next season goes to really judge. If they do all play to their ranking, I can see frustration in the fan base mounting even further.
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TC
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Post by TC on May 13, 2020 11:51:34 GMT -5
Counter point : it is May, there are no mid-90's kids left, and we just watched a team go 5-13 and lose out because there were not enough bodies on the bench. Signing Berger is good.
Overall though, we waste all our time on making the top 10 of some top 25 player, and yes, should be focusing on mid-90's kids.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on May 13, 2020 12:18:59 GMT -5
Out of 12 frosh recruits in the first 3 years, that means we've had: 6 transfers 1 outplay ranking at BE star level (McClung) 1 outplay ranking at BE starter level (Blair) 1 even to ranking at BE starter level (Pickett) 1 even to ranking with potential to outplay ranking at BE starter/star level (Wahab) 2 have not seen enough, but still potential to outplay ranking to contributors (Ighoefe, Wilson) Out of 6 transfers, prior to transfer: 2 outplayed ranking to BE star level (Akinjo, LeBlanc) 2 appeared poised to outplay ranking to strong BE bench/upperclassmen starter (Walker, Gardner) 2 disappointments (Sodom, Carter) -- even with that, both seemed to have enough potential to contribute if they'd stayed around. What makes McClung a star and Blair a level below? We saw when given the time Blair could put up the numbers Mac has. Pickett has not played to BE starter level yet and surely hasn't played to his ranking. If he played BE starter level and to his ranking he likely wouldn't be here next year. I think for the most part everyone has played to their ranking so far. Our players get the benefit of getting playing time they wouldn't get at other BE schools so it makes it look like they are greatly over performing their ranking. The truth is they are getting too much playing time for their productivity as our record shows. I would say Josh was well on his way to outplaying his final ranking but his final ranking was off due to his injury. Akinjo definitely outplayed first year but then this year happened. The truth is top 100 guys should turn into really good college basketball players. Of course all don't but more do than don't. Both players will likely end up being really good although going to schools with similarly ranked players will give us good insight. |
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on May 13, 2020 12:53:50 GMT -5
What makes Mac BE star level and Juggy not is Mac can do it with or without Juggy. While Juggy's efficiency dipped when Mac got injured....I know you don't like Mac but he was Option 1 while Juggy was Option 3or4....
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on May 13, 2020 13:20:03 GMT -5
Out of 12 frosh recruits in the first 3 years, that means we've had: 6 transfers 1 outplay ranking at BE star level (McClung) 1 outplay ranking at BE starter level (Blair) 1 even to ranking at BE starter level (Pickett) 1 even to ranking with potential to outplay ranking at BE starter/star level (Wahab) 2 have not seen enough, but still potential to outplay ranking to contributors (Ighoefe, Wilson) Out of 6 transfers, prior to transfer: 2 outplayed ranking to BE star level (Akinjo, LeBlanc) 2 appeared poised to outplay ranking to strong BE bench/upperclassmen starter (Walker, Gardner) 2 disappointments (Sodom, Carter) -- even with that, both seemed to have enough potential to contribute if they'd stayed around. What makes McClung a star and Blair a level below? We saw when given the time Blair could put up the numbers Mac has. Pickett has not played to BE starter level yet and surely hasn't played to his ranking. If he played BE starter level and to his ranking he likely wouldn't be here next year. I think for the most part everyone has played to their ranking so far. Our players get the benefit of getting playing time they wouldn't get at other BE schools so it makes it look like they are greatly over performing their ranking. The truth is they are getting too much playing time for their productivity as our record shows. I would say Josh was well on his way to outplaying his final ranking but his final ranking was off due to his injury. Akinjo definitely outplayed first year but then this year happened. The truth is top 100 guys should turn into really good college basketball players. Of course all don't but more do than don't. Both players will likely end up being really good although going to schools with similarly ranked players will give us good insight. Agree with playing time which is why we have had such success with all-freshman players. McClung isn't a star, not yet anyways. His D is lacking effort. You got to play both sides of the ball to be a star. He is a good starter. I think throwing Walker & Gardner in there as poised to outplay is generous as well. Blair played well but a years scouting report would box him in for sure. He will be best as a complimentary piece and spot up shooter. I'm guessing with no facts (seems on trend in today's environment) that our composite recruiting rankings slot us in roughly where we have finished in the standings. We are on a lot of top 30 players top 10 but that is fool's gold right now. I would rather be on a number of top 3's for kids from 50-100. Coach them up to overachieve and then we have something. |
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on May 13, 2020 14:10:17 GMT -5
What makes Mac BE star level and Juggy not is Mac can do it with or without Juggy. While Juggy's efficiency dipped when Mac got injured....I know you don't like Mac but he was Option 1 while Juggy was Option 3or4.... Mac was not option 1 even after the defections. Yurt was option 1. With everyone hurt Blair was option 1. Blair and Mac's numbers across the board are similar enough that you can't really differentiate them to the point of calling 1 a star and another starter level at this point. Here are this year's conference lines for example Mac 30 minutes 15.1 shots per game averaged 16 on 34%/22% shooting with 3.6 RB 2.6 A 91.9 oRtg and a 2-6 record in games played Blair 32 minutes 11.9 shots per game averaged 13.2 on 37%/33% shooting with 3.4 RB 2.2 A 104.1 ORtg and a 5-13 record in games played Instead of saying I'm hating on Mac you could say I'm complimenting him by saying he's not in the same level as Blair. It's all in how you look at it.  |
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Post by hoyanewyorka on Jun 5, 2020 13:28:47 GMT -5
Way too many offers for 2021 & 2022 classes. A total of 73 for both classes. (Verbal Commits doesn't include Nate Santos & Jay Billingsly.)
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Post by RockawayHoya on Jun 5, 2020 13:43:19 GMT -5
2017Sodom - 266 Blair - 238 Walker - 223 Pickett - 76 2018Akinjo - 90 Leblanc - 122 Carter - 235 McClung - 245 2019Wahab - 136 Igohoefe - 403 Wilson - 290 Gardner - 289 2020D. Harris - 394 Clark - 356 Beard - 149 Sibley - 97 Berger - UR Holloway - UR I fear we are all constantly lulled to sleep about the potential of players. Everyone is a diamond in the rough. McClung has way outplayed his ranking for us. I would argue Blair has too. Everybody else at this point, not so much. Wahab has potential and LeBlanc outplayed his ranking freshman year when he got to play. Here is hoping the 2020 class can get it done and that 2021 can hit on guys with a floor in the mid-90's of the recruiting rankings versus a ceiling. So if we generously cap Berger and Holloway (unranked) at 500, the averages for each year are as follows: EDIT: Removing Bile (UR) and J. Harris (325) from the list, per MDTD's suggestion. 2017: 201 2018: 173 2019: 280 2020: 333 |
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blazers32
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Post by blazers32 on Jun 5, 2020 13:58:17 GMT -5
It's sickening to look at the success of the recruiting
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Jun 5, 2020 14:07:45 GMT -5
I wouldn't add grad transfers to that list because they were recruited as a result of what they did in college and not in high school. Completely different game. But, this does show that player development needs work. But what I can say is this program needs results. Whether that's on the floor (in big games, not being bottom tier of BE) or in recruiting, this program needs results to gain momentum. Seeing guys get better over this summer and show up ready to ball will really help that. If not, other coaches can see guys don't get better and will attack that in recruiting and it'll be even harder to get these guys we are after. There needs to be a turn around this year. Somethings gotta change.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Jun 5, 2020 14:17:23 GMT -5
I wouldn't add grad transfers to that list because they were recruited as a result of what they did in college and not in high school. Completely different game. But, this does show that player development needs work. But what I can say is this program needs results. Whether that's on the floor (in big games, not being bottom tier of BE) or in recruiting, this program needs results to gain momentum. Seeing guys get better over this summer and show up ready to ball will really help that. If not, other coaches can see guys don't get better and will attack that in recruiting and it'll be even harder to get these guys we are after. There needs to be a turn around this year. Somethings gotta change. Completely fair. Revised the numbers accordingly. |
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Jun 5, 2020 16:47:50 GMT -5
I wouldn't add grad transfers to that list because they were recruited as a result of what they did in college and not in high school. Completely different game. But, this does show that player development needs work. But what I can say is this program needs results. Whether that's on the floor (in big games, not being bottom tier of BE) or in recruiting, this program needs results to gain momentum. Seeing guys get better over this summer and show up ready to ball will really help that. If not, other coaches can see guys don't get better and will attack that in recruiting and it'll be even harder to get these guys we are after. There needs to be a turn around this year. Somethings gotta change. Completely fair. Revised the numbers accordingly. Anyone care to post JTIII’s classes? I don’t think he had more than 1 as lowly ranked as Ewing’s last two. I know there was the one year we only had one signing, but I’m pretty sure most years he had at least 1 Top 125 guy. |
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Jun 5, 2020 16:53:11 GMT -5
I like this class regardless of the star rankings.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jun 5, 2020 17:46:16 GMT -5
Completely fair. Revised the numbers accordingly. Anyone care to post JTIII’s classes? I don’t think he had more than 1 as lowly ranked as Ewing’s last two. I know there was the one year we only had one signing, but I’m pretty sure most years he had at least 1 Top 125 guy. JT III recruiting classes (four year players only), 2005-2016. 30 of 44 in the top 150 per Rivals.com. 2004-05 Marc Egerson Patrick Ewing, Jr. (#97) Jessie Sapp (#69) Octavius Spann (#95) Josh Thornton (#134) 2005-06 (3) Vernon Macklin (#37) Jeremiah Rivers Dajuan Summers (#23) 2006-07 (4) Austin Freeman (#15) Nikita Mescheriakov Omar Wattad Chris Wright (#55) 2007-08 (4) Jason Clark (#64) Greg Monroe (#8) Henry Sims (#48) Julian Vaughn (#73) 2008-09 (5) Jerrelle Benimon Vee Sanford Hollis Thompson (#63) 2009-10 (5) Moses Ayegba (#95) Aaron Bowen (#136) Nate Lubick (#55) Markel Starks (#94) 2010-11 (5) Tyler Adams (#62) Mikael Hopkins (#87) Otto Porter (#37) Jabril Trawick Greg Whittington 2011-12 (5) Brandon Bolden Stephen Domingo Bradley Hayes D'Vauntes Smith-Rivera (#32) 2012-13 (2) Reggie Cameron (#88) Josh Smith (#23) 2013-14 (5) Tre Campbell (#126) Isaac Copeland (#23) Trey Mourning L.J. Peak (#68) Paul White (#50) 2014-15 (4) Akoy Agau (#88) Marcus Derrickson (#87) Jessie Govan (#40) Kaleb Johnson 2015-16 (4) Jagan Mosely (#125) |
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Jun 5, 2020 18:39:46 GMT -5
Anyone care to post JTIII’s classes? I don’t think he had more than 1 as lowly ranked as Ewing’s last two. I know there was the one year we only had one signing, but I’m pretty sure most years he had at least 1 Top 125 guy. JT III recruiting classes (four year players only), 2005-2016. 30 of 44 in the top 150 per Rivals.com. 2004-05 Marc Egerson Patrick Ewing, Jr. (#97) Jessie Sapp (#69) Octavius Spann (#95) Josh Thornton (#134) 2005-06 (3) Vernon Macklin (#37) Jeremiah Rivers Dajuan Summers (#23) 2006-07 (4) Austin Freeman (#15) Nikita Mescheriakov Omar Wattad Chris Wright (#55) 2007-08 (4) Jason Clark (#64) Greg Monroe (#8) Henry Sims (#48) Julian Vaughn (#73) 2008-09 (5) Jerrelle Benimon Vee Sanford Hollis Thompson (#63) 2009-10 (5) Moses Ayegba (#95) Aaron Bowen (#136) Nate Lubick (#55) Markel Starks (#94) 2010-11 (5) Tyler Adams (#62) Mikael Hopkins (#87) Otto Porter (#37) Jabril Trawick Greg Whittington 2011-12 (5) Brandon Bolden Stephen Domingo Bradley Hayes D'Vauntes Smith-Rivera (#32) 2012-13 (2) Reggie Cameron (#88) Josh Smith (#23) 2013-14 (5) Tre Campbell (#126) Isaac Copeland (#23) Trey Mourning L.J. Peak (#68) Paul White (#50) 2014-15 (4) Akoy Agau (#88) Marcus Derrickson (#87) Jessie Govan (#40) Kaleb Johnson 2015-16 (4) Jagan Mosely (#125) This is pretty disheartening and aligns with the decline of this program. Seeing the trend the last two years of signing multiple unranked kids and not landing any Top 75 kids has to be concerning. Sure this class might be full of the “right” kids, but we need program changing talent. I’m not saying pipe dreams like Stewart, Anthony, Cisse, etc, but the next tier of guys like RJ Davis or Oscar Tshwiebe (unfortunately Akinjo and Leblanc had fit this mold too). Everyone pretends like Nova or Creighton are doing what they do with +200 ranked kids. But if you look it’s just not true. We need talent and not just bodies. This class might turn out fine, but it should be complimentary to a player or two who has the ability to change our fortunes quickly. Individually I have no problems with any of our recruits, but collectively it’s full of too many lower ranked / “diamond in the rough” candidates. The fact our recruiting is getting relatively worse (based on average rating) during the Ewing era should raise alarm bells. Each year we aren’t competitive and Ewing’s hot seat gets warmer, the challenge only gets tougher. New coaches typically get a recruiting boost early on and then they either maintain it based on success or it continue to fall off. Were really at an inflection point here IMO. |
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Jun 5, 2020 19:13:29 GMT -5
Anyone care to post JTIII’s classes? I don’t think he had more than 1 as lowly ranked as Ewing’s last two. I know there was the one year we only had one signing, but I’m pretty sure most years he had at least 1 Top 125 guy. JT III recruiting classes (four year players only), 2005-2016. 30 of 44 in the top 150 per Rivals.com. 2004-05 Marc Egerson Patrick Ewing, Jr. (#97)Jessie Sapp (#69) Octavius Spann (#95)
Josh Thornton (#134)
2005-06 (3) Vernon Macklin (#37)
Jeremiah Rivers Dajuan Summers (#23) 2006-07 (4) Austin Freeman (#15) Nikita Mescheriakov
Omar Wattad Chris Wright (#55) 2007-08 (4) Jason Clark (#64) Greg Monroe (#8) Henry Sims (#48) Julian Vaughn (#73)
2008-09 (5) Jerrelle Benimon
Vee Sanford Hollis Thompson (#63) 2009-10 (5) Moses Ayegba (#95) Aaron Bowen (#136) Nate Lubick (#55) Markel Starks (#94) 2010-11 (5) Tyler Adams (#62) Mikael Hopkins (#87) Otto Porter (#37) Jabril Trawick Greg Whittington 2011-12 (5) Brandon Bolden
Stephen Domingo Bradley Hayes D'Vauntes Smith-Rivera (#32) 2012-13 (2) Reggie Cameron (#88) Josh Smith (#23)2013-14 (5) Tre Campbell (#126)
Isaac Copeland (#23)Trey Mourning L.J. Peak (#68) Paul White (#50)2014-15 (4) Akoy Agau (#88)Marcus Derrickson (#87) Jessie Govan (#40) Kaleb Johnson 2015-16 (4) Jagan Mosely (#125) Per usual ...Very misleading how you posted that information. Ewing Jr. & Julian Vaughn transferred in as Juniors from Indiana & Florida State. so did Joshua Smith from UCLA and Akoy Agau from Louisville. So they are not part of JT3's recruiting classes. They're transfers. Only thing this really showed me is that JT3 had hard time with retaining players early in his tenure on the Hilltop as well. He had nine players leave I his first five seasons. That was at time when transferring wasn't nearly as prevalent as today plus there were fewer waivers given. I know that Vaughn got a waiver to play immediately at Georgetown. It wasn't until his 5th class that JT3 was able to somewhat stabilize the roster for a few seasons. In total, by your post JT3 had 13 transfers including eight in his first five years in a time where players didn't transfer nearly as much as today. Transferring in college basketball is just part of doing business. It is what it is. These young men have more and more outside voices they listening to sometimes giving them bad info. I don't look at players transferring any more as a slight to the program. As a coach You can roll out the red carpet give the player everything you think he would want from tons of playing time and freedom on the court. Someone from the outside gets in these kids heads, plays with their insecure minds and boom they want to transfer and when they do they can't give a legitimate reason why. Every program in the country has to deal with high level talent wanting to transfer in today's race to the NBA... |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jun 5, 2020 19:30:28 GMT -5
Per usual ...Very misleading how you posted that information. It's a list from Rivals.com. You're welcome to take out the transfers. |
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Jun 5, 2020 19:37:22 GMT -5
Per usual ...Very misleading how you posted that information. It's a list from Rivals.com. You're welcome to take out the transfers. Sure...blame the resource used. I didn't have to go to Rivals or any other sources to know they were transfers, and not part of JT3's original classes. I suspect you knew they were transfers as well...but whatever helps you push your Anti Coach Ewing narrative/agenda/campaign I guess is fair game to you. |
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