RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jul 1, 2020 20:26:48 GMT -5
Yeah...
One thing that will be interesting is how many - if any - schools are forced to walk back their announced plans. We're hitting a new daily case record every day right now, and Fauci's talking about us getting to 100,000 cases a day at this pace. We're about 7 weeks away from when first-years at traditional colleges (good luck, Air Force Cadets!) are supposed to show up. If we have nationwide pockets in August that look like NYC did in April, does the calculus have no choice but to change?
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jul 2, 2020 10:54:26 GMT -5
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 2, 2020 11:23:58 GMT -5
The link above offers more clarity to the process than anything GU has offered, which probably annoys some higher level officials to no end.
What are we learning?
1. It's Plan C or D at this point. Option 1, 100% virtual: Out. Option 2, Rotational by semester: Out. Option 3: Lots of kids in hotels: Out. Option 4: Everyone in: Out.
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Post by LizziebethHoya on Jul 2, 2020 12:21:49 GMT -5
Just skimmed those notes that are liked in the tweet - wow.
What are schools like GW and American doing? And why would Georgetown be any different?
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 2, 2020 12:39:40 GMT -5
Todd Olson: "We’re not pursuing rotational or hotels or option 4 but we’re also not pursuing option 1."
What's left?
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C86
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Post by C86 on Jul 2, 2020 13:53:48 GMT -5
I take back my post of June 30 in which I assumed Georgetown had a plan they were waiting to unveil. They don’t. And I don’t see how they get a fully formed plan done by next week, with all these unknowns. What I glean from this is that they have 2000 beds on campus How they fill those beds is to be determined. Everybody else is virtual
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jul 2, 2020 19:05:52 GMT -5
I think it may be a bit more subtle - sounds like they HAD a plan and then the daily new COVID case rate went up over 50,000.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jul 3, 2020 11:27:24 GMT -5
I take back my post of June 30 in which I assumed Georgetown had a plan they were waiting to unveil. They don’t. And I don’t see how they get a fully formed plan done by next week, with all these unknowns. What I glean from this is that they have 2000 beds on campus How they fill those beds is to be determined. Everybody else is virtual I think it may be a bit more subtle - sounds like they HAD a plan and then the daily new COVID case rate went up over 50,000. I think that's right, Dan. I talked to one of my friends who is still on staff: University leadership briefed faculty on a plan this week to allow only first-years and transfers on campus for fall. There was significant pushback from faculty, who do not want the least experienced (read: most irresponsible) undergrads to be the ones on campus. Timing-wise, I have to assume said plan is thorough, but was put together when the nationwide picture was one of plateau, with major East Coast population centers showing steady decline. With that no longer the case, it creates a real bind. Do you pull the plug now, at enormous financial cost, only to look foolish if the current spike gets pushed back down in time for fall? Or do you try to stick with it, knowing you're going to look deluded and callous in light of current conditions and will expose yourself to bitter criticism from the very faculty you're relying on?
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jul 3, 2020 12:02:40 GMT -5
I would go with a phases and benchmarks approach. The easier path is follow or work with other schools in your area, develop a consortium or working group.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jul 3, 2020 14:37:24 GMT -5
Case in point on the tensions discussed earlier:
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jul 4, 2020 8:27:04 GMT -5
And from the faculty end:
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C86
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Post by C86 on Jul 4, 2020 10:25:59 GMT -5
If it is not safe to reopen universities is it safe to reopen any school? The risk that this article cites —prolonged exposure in confined indoor spaces — exists in elementary and high schools.
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Post by badgerhoya on Jul 4, 2020 13:02:09 GMT -5
If it is not safe to reopen universities is it safe to reopen any school? The risk that this article cites —prolonged exposure in confined indoor spaces — exists in elementary and high schools. I think the one difference is that for some reason, the younger the child group, the less risk there seems to be of not just poor health outcomes, but infection spreading in general. Who knows why that is, but kids just don’t seem to be the vectors that even young adults a few years older are.
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C86
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Post by C86 on Jul 4, 2020 14:16:43 GMT -5
If it is not safe to reopen universities is it safe to reopen any school? The risk that this article cites —prolonged exposure in confined indoor spaces — exists in elementary and high schools. I think the one difference is that for some reason, the younger the child group, the less risk there seems to be of not just poor health outcomes, but infection spreading in general. Who knows why that is, but kids just don’t seem to be the vectors that even young adults a few years older are. That may justify opening some schools for younger kids, but physically there isn't much of a difference between, say, a junior or senior in high school and a college freshman. My daughters' old high school has 3400 kids in one 4 story building. Hard to see how that could be safe if it's necessary to avoid prolonged indoor exposure. It's a strange moment. There is a lot of discussion (and lot of op-ed pieces) arguing passionately that it is unsafe to reopen colleges. But I've seen little argument that it's unsafe to reopen high schools. To the contrary, the American Academy of Pediatrics has come out strongly with clinical guidance that K-12 schools should open in the fall. services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-to-in-person-education-in-schools/
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TC
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Post by TC on Jul 4, 2020 17:50:05 GMT -5
I talked to one of my friends who is still on staff: University leadership briefed faculty on a plan this week to allow only first-years and transfers on campus for fall. There was significant pushback from faculty, who do not want the least experienced (read: most irresponsible) undergrads to be the ones on campus. It seems like a bunch of colleges are doing this (Bowdoin for example). I think it makes sense from a culture point of view - you want to push a culture radically different than previous years, even though these are 18 year olds they are likely to be the most receptive to a mask-wearing and socially-distant culture given that they don't have social networks previously built up.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jul 5, 2020 13:43:12 GMT -5
I think the one difference is that for some reason, the younger the child group, the less risk there seems to be of not just poor health outcomes, but infection spreading in general. Who knows why that is, but kids just don’t seem to be the vectors that even young adults a few years older are. That may justify opening some schools for younger kids, but physically there isn't much of a difference between, say, a junior or senior in high school and a college freshman. My daughters' old high school has 3400 kids in one 4 story building. Hard to see how that could be safe if it's necessary to avoid prolonged indoor exposure. It's a strange moment. There is a lot of discussion (and lot of op-ed pieces) arguing passionately that it is unsafe to reopen colleges. But I've seen little argument that it's unsafe to reopen high schools. To the contrary, the American Academy of Pediatrics has come out strongly with clinical guidance that K-12 schools should open in the fall. services.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/clinical-guidance/covid-19-planning-considerations-return-to-in-person-education-in-schools/Yeah, high school is the...interesting? I don't know what word to use here... one, because it lies in the middle of the spectrum on the two main dynamics at play here. The first is the viral hazard one, where it seems well-established that the younger you go, the lower the risk of both transmissibility and severe health outcomes. HS students are assumed to be generally less risky than college students, but more risky than middle schoolers. It is also assumed that college students as a group engage in the highest risk social behaviors - read: partying and getting drunk - to the point that this is considered a major defining part of 'the college experience.' American social norms being what they are, people are much less likely to admit in public, in print, that this is true for many high schoolers as well, not least because parents can be held socially and even legally liable for that in a way that people are not with the 18+ set. The second is something like 'social need.' Generally speaking, college students are considered adults, so the lack of somewhere for them to go physically is no different from what happens to 18 year olds who don't go to college. Quick aside: It is worth noting that you will see compelling individual arguments made for why it's a problem, e.g., for some international students or those who don't have a non-campus home to return to and lack the readily available financial means to secure housing. Georgetown ended with I think somewhere around 120 undergrads closing out the Spring semester on campus for various reasons along those lines, and anecdotally there were others who were denied continued on-campus presence who were aggrieved by that decision. On the other end of the spectrum: day care, pre-school, elementary school and into middle school are considered forms of child care/adult supervision, with the urgency tailing off as you get older. So where you end up is that in-person college is understood to be highest risk and least socially necessary, while middle school and below is considered to be lowest risk and most socially necessary. High school is stuck awkwardly in between.
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C86
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Post by C86 on Jul 5, 2020 16:50:42 GMT -5
Two responses, Russky
1) John Hughes movies aside, high schoolers may not engage in many of the risky behaviors of college students, but they do engage in (innocent) behaviors that could spread Covid. They are in crowded spaces for 6-7 hours a day. They travel to and from school, frequently on public transportation. They can live in households with multiple generations under one roof. My understanding is that universities are attempting to limit the activities of their on-campus students, in order to minimize those precise risks.
2) The need issue is fascinating. College may be seen as having less social need, but it has a way higher price tag. In some ways it is like a luxury good. But if college is expensive, and not viewed as socially necessary, one would think university administrators and faculties would be allied to move heaven and earth to open, if for no other reasons than to keep the money rolling in and to stop people from looking seriously at alternatives.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jul 5, 2020 17:55:16 GMT -5
Two responses, Russky 1) John Hughes movies aside, high schoolers may not engage in many of the risky behaviors of college students, but they do engage in (innocent) behaviors that could spread Covid. They are in crowded spaces for 6-7 hours a day. They travel to and from school, frequently on public transportation. They can live in households with multiple generations under one roof. My understanding is that universities are attempting to limit the activities of their on-campus students, in order to minimize those precise risks. 2) The need issue is fascinating. College may be seen as having less social need, but it has a way higher price tag. In some ways it is like a luxury good. But if college is expensive, and not viewed as socially necessary, one would think university administrators and faculties would be allied to move heaven and earth to open, if for no other reasons than to keep the money rolling in and to stop people from looking seriously at alternatives. Agree on your points re: high school. Even if parents and schools are able to successfully impose a pretty strict regime on them, they're still have a higher risk profile. Some of them are even essential employees, e.g., those working at grocery stores. Re: college and social need - to be clear, I was referring to *in-person* college specifically, not college as a whole. There's broad agreement that missing a semester or three on campus sucks, but there's just not a compelling need to justify the risk, the way there is with parents ground down by the demands of simultaneous full-time employment and child-care. It's true that some have posited this crisis will be what pops the higher ed bubble by revealing how unnecessary many proxe-inflating attributes of contemporary college life are. Many faculty - particularly those with a very limited grasp of how institutional finances actually break down - may well agree, believing themselves to be the truly indispensable part of universities. Regardless, they are not going to put themselves at personal risk to resolve a problem for which there appears to be an obvious alternative: online instruction, cutting 'bloated administration' and sports, and an infusion of Federal relief funds.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Jul 6, 2020 8:45:46 GMT -5
USC having to walk back their plans bases on new conditions: July 1, 2020
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C86
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Post by C86 on Jul 6, 2020 11:01:30 GMT -5
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