Is Georgetown any better off than it was in 2017?

[SSHoya]

Feb 24, 2020 10:52:43 GMT -5 hoya9797 said:

Feb 24, 2020 10:21:40 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Style of play is certainly an improvement.

I guess seeing more points scored in a loss is better.

Entertainment value definitely greater. JTIII end of his era was truly painful to watch.

[Bigs"R"Us]

Tremont Waters would have been fun to watch. Not sure if JT3 would have given him the freedom necessary to thrive.

[cthoya16]

Yes for two main reasons :

1. Pat has shown he can coach/ get a team to play hard for him. This is far and away the most enjoyable Hoyas team of the last 5 years. Decimated by transfers this team has played together and fought tooth and nail to win games and still haven’t quit. This season could’ve been over at 4-3 and here we are still around the bubble Our teams from 2015-2019 never consistently played this hard.

2. Pat has shown he can bring in talent, coming into the season we had a top 25 caliber roster. The transfers un questionably set the program back a couple years, and pat deserves some blame for that because the buck stops with him. Even after having to recruit on the fly and losing TW, we have landed Tyler Beard, Jamari Sibley and Kobe Clark. All three are tough gritty and somewhat under recruited and have a chip on their shoulders, each I believe can contribute right away. Pat has been working his tail off trying to bring in big talent and it will eventually pay off if it coincides with winning some games. Say we Add in Frankie Collins and a grad transfer wing and we have a young but very talented roster for next season. If Mac takes a step forward this team should be in the dance.

Guards- McClung, Beard, Blair, Collins, Harris
Wings- Sibley, Pickett, Clark, Grad Transfer
Centers- Qudus, Tim, Malcolm

[hoya9797]

Feb 24, 2020 11:10:31 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Feb 24, 2020 10:52:43 GMT -5 hoya9797 said:

I guess seeing more points scored in a loss is better.

Entertainment value definitely greater. JTIII end of his era was truly painful to watch.

But this doesn't mean the state of the team is any better.

[LCPolo18]

Feb 24, 2020 8:57:29 GMT -5 TC said:

Four years ago at this time, Georgetown was 5-9 in the BE, with a top 25 recruit signed and two eventual all-BE frontcourt members on the roster. A couple of key players transferred midseason, Tre Campbell got injured in the bus crash . They lost out, the fanbase revolted, the recruit got cold feet, and the coach got fired.

Georgetown at this point is 5-9. There are no top 25 recruits signed, I'm not sure there are any future all-BE type players on the roster. Losing out the remainder of the schedule is possible.

Is this program any better off than it was in 2017?

To be fair, Tremont Waters was ranked 38 RSCI, 34 ESPN, 40 Rivals, 54 247, and 44 27 Composite. Certainly higher ranked than the current Georgetown recruiting class, but not top 25 which would indicate a 5 star recruit.

[95hoya]

Feb 24, 2020 11:11:54 GMT -5 cthoya16 said:

Yes for two main reasons :

1. Pat has shown he can coach/ get a team to play hard for him. This is far and away the most enjoyable Hoyas team of the last 5 years. Decimated by transfers this team has played together and fought tooth and nail to win games and still haven’t quit. This season could’ve been over at 4-3 and here we are still around the bubble Our teams from 2015-2019 never consistently played this hard.

2. Pat has shown he can bring in talent, coming into the season we had a top 25 caliber roster. The transfers un questionably set the program back a couple years, and pat deserves some blame for that because the buck stops with him. Even after having to recruit on the fly and losing TW, we have landed Tyler Beard, Jamari Sibley and Kobe Clark. All three are tough gritty and somewhat under recruited and have a chip on their shoulders, each I believe can contribute right away. Pat has been working his tail off trying to bring in big talent and it will eventually pay off if it coincides with winning some games. Say we Add in Frankie Collins and a grad transfer wing and we have a young but very talented roster for next season. If Mac takes a step forward this team should be in the dance.

Guards- McClung, Beard, Blair, Collins, Harris
Wings- Sibley, Pickett, Clark, Grad Transfer
Centers- Qudus, Tim, Malcolm

Yes, the "every recruit is underrated and underranked" argument every fanbase makes about their lower ranked guys. We have been at a talent deficit relative to our peers for years. That was true under JT3 at the end and it's been true under Ewing and there is no indication that is changing soon.

Every coach lands recruits. Bringing in recruits is not a sign of strong recruiting. I think some people are just looking for reasons to throw praise toward Ewing because he is a Hoya legend. If a different coach were bringing in these same recruits, we would hear a different tone.

[SSHoya]

Feb 24, 2020 11:18:59 GMT -5 hoya9797 said:

Feb 24, 2020 11:10:31 GMT -5 SSHoya said:

Entertainment value definitely greater. JTIII end of his era was truly painful to watch.

But this doesn't mean the state of the team is any better.

Did I say that it was. Still have plateaued wins wise under Ewing.

[oldbigeast]

I hate these trap door posts and questions. Just post that you have no faith in Ewing or the program instead of the yoga stretch questions. Let people comment and debate on the actual topic instead of having to read these fake deep posts.

[rhw485]

Feb 24, 2020 11:04:50 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

Feb 24, 2020 10:49:45 GMT -5 rhw485 said:

Could JT3 not have made the same argument based on White, Copeland transfers and Campbell injury?

Copeland's 3pt shot and confidence was already broken the season before and Paul White's hip problem made him ineffective the season before.
Campbell was not good at all except for the one game against Xavier.

So no you couldn't have made the same arguemnt.

So allowed to take last year's LeBlanc and Akinjo but not soph year Copeland?  That was the broader point being made in the comment i responded to, realize that wasn't your argument per se.  No argument w Campbell, but Gardner feels similar in team impact / minutes played.  We can always look to the best case scenario and say we could've been better.

My point is it's a lot closer than being categorically dismissed.  We're starting over again next season w a similar talent level and no bids in the middle.  Yes I agree with your broader points about style of play and program perception.  Have to hope that translates in next few years to on-court success

[Bigs"R"Us]

I think we as fans were able to rally around The Little Engine That Could team this season. Allen and especially Moseley are likable players. Next year the fan base will look for results or they will become restless.

[hoyainla]

The reason I was so adamant about getting rid of JT3 was that the freedom of movement rule change rendered his system ineffective. He did not show a willingness to change so we had to go a different direction. My fear is that while it is more pleasurable to watch Pat’s system is as ineffective but just for different reasons. I don’t see much willingness in Pat to change either. He will get his chance to show it next year.

JT3’s recruiting made him look like Coach K compared to Pat. It’s certainly not for lack of effort on Pats part but I don’t (and have heard) he’s not willing to play the game. He’s a very no nonsense guy. I think this is why he does so well with transfers. Those players are more mature and you don’t have to deal with as much BS. They’ve most likely already been knocked off their pedestal. I feel like if you gave him truth serum he would say how much he hates the modern player/recruitment. He has pretty much botched the relationship with all of the best players he has had. He will say it’s tough love but tough love doesn’t work in this era of transfers and more pro opportunities.

Times have certainly changed and he will have to as well. If he doesn’t we are going to be at a talent deficit to most comparable teams unless he truly embraces transfers.

[bigelephant]

I vote a definite YES! We are in a much better place than 2017. Pat will do it.

[LCPolo18]

Feb 24, 2020 9:31:19 GMT -5 rhw485 said:

I was going to pose this question at the end of the season, but since you asked...


You can actually draw a ton of parallels to the 2016-2017 season. I had written this out in my drafts before the Cuse game and chose not to post it but it still holds




Preseason Expectations

• Expectations of making the tournament after missing the prior season and losing in BE quarters prior year. Preseason pick to finish 4th in Big East in 16, close enough to 19-20 season (I saw us 5/6 but a point out of 4)

• Replacing a leading scorer who was a 4 year player who put up impressive offensive stats but had issues with defense (DSR vs. Govan)

• Expectations built upon a core recruiting class that had multiple players on BE All freshman team maturing (Copeland, White, Peak vs. Akinjo, Mac, LeBlanc) 16-17 were juniors but given the amount of playing time we gave this crop, the expectations ultimately were for them to perform like upper classmen

• Team bolstered by a transfer who’s only going to be here one year and expected to carry a huge scoring burden (Pryor vs. Yurt7)

• Sure lets throw in a JuCo transfer on each squad for good measure (Mulmore vs. Alexander)

• And an extra transfer w experience (Agau vs. Allen)



Results

• Two transfers: White (yes I know it happened in August), Copeland vs. Akinjo, LeBlanc
**can now add Gardner / Alexander**
• Jekyll/Hyde early season results. 16-17 loses to Arkansas St, gets waxed by Oklahoma St. and beats #11 Oregon, while current team barely survives Mt. St Mary’s, loses to UNC-Greensboro, gets waxed by Penn St. and beats Texas / Ok State
**ok Texas and Ok St didn't end up being as relevant as beating a team like Oregon**
• Key recruit who is meant to represent a significant tipping point subsequently decommits (Tremont the point god vs. Williams the local recruit that would help Gtown make inroads in DC)

• One remaining impact top 100 power forward recruit (Sibley vs. Walker) for the upcoming season


Looking back, it was hard to remember that the 16-17 team then went on and picked up two more top 25 wins in conference play, but everything cratered down the stretch, finished 5-13 in Big East and lost in 8-9 game at the garden.  **I can't believe I actually drafted that sentence in mid-December, it looks like it's very real right now**

Jr Derrickson / Govan / Kaleb, sophomore Mosely, Sr Mulmore, Freshman Walker vs.

Sr Pickett / Blair, Junior Mac, sophomore Wahab / Tim I. / Malcolm, Freshman Sibley

If you're arguing Beard, Clark, Harris demonstrably change our outlook, I think JT3 would've filled roster with similar players.  Ewing chose to go Dickerson, Malinowski path in the moment.

Either way it's really close and forces some difficult questions.


Edit: obviously Ewing added Pickett / Blair / Sodom in late recruiting season, not sure what JT3 would've pulled off but he would've hit decomit trail w spots open after transfers

Comparing Antwan Walker with Jamari Sibley in terms of quality of recruit is a little bit of a stretch. Jamari Sibley is nearly a consensus top 100 player with ranks of ESPN #87, Rivals #95, 247 #130, and 247 Composite #94, while Antwan Walker was ranked ESPN NR, Rivals NR, 247 #298, 247 Composite #223.

Anyways.

I still think this thread is a little premature, but here are some preliminary thoughts.

Recruiting - While I've seen some people upset about high school recruiting, the Hoyas are in a better spot than in 2017. The Hoyas had solid recruiting classes in 2014 and 2015, but the 2012 and 2013 classes only brought in DSR, Hayes, Domingo, and Cameron, and the 2016 and 2017 classes were only due to bring in Mosely and Walker. Compare that to Wahab, Ighoefe, Wilson, Sibley, Beard, Clark, and Harris. For as much as Ewing has taken heat for not landing top 50 talent, the Hoyas have been missing on that level of recruits the two years before he was hired.

Play - The Hoyas have swapped good defense and bad offense with good offense and bad defense. The defense is certainly maddening right now, but in the 2017 season the offense was really disheartening and boring and even the defense was cracking with all the fouls. And I'll say this, while the results haven't always been there, since the beginning of January I've seen more growth in this program than at any other point in Ewing's tenure, between different looks on defense, situational awareness, and just general fundamentals. There's still work to be done, but that was one of my biggest concerns at the end of last year and Ewing has certainly shown improvement.

Atmosphere - I know there is a lot of negativity around the program this season, but going to the last home game in 2017 felt like walking to a funeral. Student attendance has increased, and it feels like there's at least some hope around the program compared to back then.

Roster - I get that people were upset about 3 freshman centers this year, but considering 2 of them weren't supposed to play until the transfers happened, it wasn't that bad of a move. People here have been clamoring for red shirts for years, but now aren't happy with the position of the red shirt players? Meanwhile, Georgetown had recruited two freshman point guards in the 7 years before Ewing (Starks and Campbell), and now people are getting upset that Ewing might recruit 3 freshman point guards this year? Next season the team will have 4 guards, 3 forwards, 3 centers, and 3 more players that will likely be guards or forwards since no freshmen centers have open offers at the moment. I would say the roster is in better shape than in 2017.

In general, the team is in a better position going into the 2020-2021 season than it was going into the 2017-2018 season. Is it where I was hoping the team would be? No. But I now realize that the program had more of a reset in 2017 than I was anticipating, and not hiring a coach with college experience added to the rebuild timeline as well. (And before people bring it up, Hardaway might be headed for his second straight NIT appearance despite his recruiting success, Stackhouse is having a miserable season, and Howard stepped into a program that had made 9 of the past 11 NCAA tournaments)

While I understand that people might be frustrated with the team and therefore blame it on Ewing, I don't think the school will go in another direction any time soon, so we should be discussing how he can be put in a better position to succeed going forward.

[hoyasaxa2003]

Ultimately, I think we are similarly situated for many of the reasons stated elsewhere. Our roster was clearly stronger at this point in 2017 because we had two top 100 recruits in Derrickson and Govan, plus Tremont Waters on the way (obviously that would fall through).

On the "style of play": "style of play" is different from "effective play." Personally, I want my team to be extremely efficient, I really don't care about style. Both Villanova and Virginia have historically been slow teams (especially Virginia) and both have had success by being efficient. Other teams, like Duke and Gonzaga are pretty fast this year, but really good. There is no one "style of play," that has efficiency on lock down. All I want to see is an effective team.

Listen, I get it. People find a faster tempo more fun than a Princeton-style offense we used in 2006-2008ish. Those teams' tempo ranked 324, 329, 327, so they were extremely slow but effective. Would I take a slow tempo if we could trade that out for a top 10 team? Absolutely. Will a fast tempo appeal to recruits? Maybe, but I am not sure it's helped us all that much, and some of the guys it was supposed to appeal to (Akinjo) aren't even here anymore.

My point: I really don't think style of play is a factor one way or another when comparing us to past teams. To me, the key question is whether it's effective. During Ewing's first two years, it would be hard to argue that our offense was significantly improved, though this year the analytics (and eyeballs) show it's been better. While I think that is in part because removing Akinjo allowed us to move the ball more, it raises the question of why this hadn't happened as much during the past two years.

On defense, we are clearly worse off. Following the rule change, we struggled mightily on defense, particularly fouling too much. But, our defense efficiency rank from 2014 onward was 91, 33, 81, 58. Under Ewing, it's been 119 (largely with the same roster than had been 58), 133, and 124. Ultimately, I think JT3's inability to coach a decent defense was his undoing (along with not recruiting well enough, and the collapse of the Copeland class). So now, under two different coaches across 7 seasons, we haven't fielded a decent defense (except for 2015). For his own good (and the team's), I think Ewing needs to do something drastic in the off season to improve the defense - perhaps by bringing in a defensive specialist. I realize we may not have the best individual defenders, but defensive-minded coaches have shown in the past you can make even a ragtag group improve on defense with effective teamwork, and I do not think Ewing has been able to figure it out. The 3-2 zone we saw the other day is certainly not the answer.

As others have said, the attitude surrounding the program is definitely better now, which is why we saw a change after 2017 and won't now. I think it's in large part because Ewing is Ewing, plus he's only been around 3 years and I think most everyone agrees he deserves more time to figure it out. If we are sitting here having this same discussion in 2 years, it'll be very different.

[LCPolo18]

Feb 24, 2020 12:49:48 GMT -5 hoyasaxa2003 said:

Ultimately, I think we are similarly situated for many of the reasons stated elsewhere. Our roster was clearly stronger at this point in 2017 because we had two top 100 recruits in Derrickson and Govan, plus Tremont Waters on the way (obviously that would fall through).

On the "style of play": "style of play" is different from "effective play." Personally, I want my team to be extremely efficient, I really don't care about style. Both Villanova and Virginia have historically been slow teams (especially Virginia) and both have had success by being efficient. Other teams, like Duke and Gonzaga are pretty fast this year, but really good. There is no one "style of play," that has efficiency on lock down. All I want to see is an effective team.

Listen, I get it. People find a faster tempo more fun than a Princeton-style offense we used in 2006-2008ish. Those teams' tempo ranked 324, 329, 327, so they were extremely slow but effective. Would I take a slow tempo if we could trade that out for a top 10 team? Absolutely. Will a fast tempo appeal to recruits? Maybe, but I am not sure it's helped us all that much, and some of the guys it was supposed to appeal to (Akinjo) aren't even here anymore.

My point: I really don't think style of play is a factor one way or another when comparing us to past teams. To me, the key question is whether it's effective. During Ewing's first two years, it would be hard to argue that our offense was significantly improved, though this year the analytics (and eyeballs) show it's been better. While I think that is in part because removing Akinjo allowed us to move the ball more, it raises the question of why this hadn't happened as much during the past two years.

On defense, we are clearly worse off. Following the rule change, we struggled mightily on defense, particularly fouling too much. But, our defense efficiency rank from 2014 onward was 91, 33, 81, 58. Under Ewing, it's been 119 (largely with the same roster than had been 58), 133, and 124. Ultimately, I think JT3's inability to coach a decent defense was his undoing (along with not recruiting well enough, and the collapse of the Copeland class). So now, under two different coaches across 7 seasons, we haven't fielded a decent defense (except for 2015). For his own good (and the team's), I think Ewing needs to do something drastic in the off season to improve the defense - perhaps by bringing in a defensive specialist. I realize we may not have the best individual defenders, but defensive-minded coaches have shown in the past you can make even a ragtag group improve on defense with effective teamwork, and I do not think Ewing has been able to figure it out. The 3-2 zone we saw the other day is certainly not the answer.

As others have said, the attitude surrounding the program is definitely better now, which is why we saw a change after 2017 and won't now. I think it's in large part because Ewing is Ewing, plus he's only been around 3 years and I think most everyone agrees he deserves more time to figure it out. If we are sitting here having this same discussion in 2 years, it'll be very different.

But I don't know that pace was the issue. Those 06-08 teams were amazing to watch on offense despite the pace. But it's tough to have a slow pace (or any pace) when the efficiency is low. In 2017 the team's offensive KenPom adjusted efficiency was 102nd. This season is 24th.

Though I do agree that the rest of this season and future seasons will come down to defense.

[hibbertfor3]

Feb 24, 2020 10:16:02 GMT -5 95hoya said:

3 years in a row with no NCAAs and we have the 34th ranked recruiting class. That's not good for a 4 man class. Our guys are ranked 94th, 160, 381, and unranked. The talent has to get better.

This. People on this board get way too excited for mediocre recruits. Absolutely need better talent.

[daveg023]

Feb 24, 2020 15:43:31 GMT -5 hibbertfor3 said:

Feb 24, 2020 10:16:02 GMT -5 95hoya said:

3 years in a row with no NCAAs and we have the 34th ranked recruiting class. That's not good for a 4 man class. Our guys are ranked 94th, 160, 381, and unranked. The talent has to get better.

This. People on this board get way too excited for mediocre recruits. Absolutely need better talent.

I agree with this. Every team thinks their unheralded recruit will be a diamond in the rough or a perfect fit. I think this is just spin after missing out on higher ranked guys.

[gojeffgoroyunder7]

Feb 24, 2020 16:05:22 GMT -5 daveg023 said:

Feb 24, 2020 15:43:31 GMT -5 hibbertfor3 said:

This. People on this board get way too excited for mediocre recruits. Absolutely need better talent.

I agree with this. Every team thinks their unheralded recruit will be a diamond in the rough or a perfect fit. I think this is just spin after missing out on higher ranked guys.

I think people get (rightfully) excited because if there is ONE thing Ewing has shown, it's that he's a great talent evaluator. So, this isn't just some blind hope/optimism -- it's confidence that Ewing has AGAIN signed a great talent that is going to help. I would also suggest listening to the new Casual Hoya podcast discussing Clark and Beard (posted in the Kobe Clark recruiting thread) for an expert's take; the guy isn't a Georgetown fan and he is quite bullish on the two players.

[FrazierFanatic]

We are better off, but so far only marginally. And not nearly as far along as we expected by the end of year 3 (of course acknowledging that year 3 is not quite dead yet).

Our offense is better - but I think we all believed our defense would be much better than it is.

I was a pro-JTIII guy, but there is more energy coming from the head coach now.

I think Patrick is learning and improving as a coach, and has plenty of room to grow. I couldn't say the same for JTIII three years ago.

Don't think we can count on a stronger team next year given all the new pieces we will have. But we absolutely need to be significantly better off 2 Februaries from now.

[hoyainla]

Feb 24, 2020 16:28:12 GMT -5 gojeffgoroyunder7 said:

Feb 24, 2020 16:05:22 GMT -5 daveg023 said:

I agree with this. Every team thinks their unheralded recruit will be a diamond in the rough or a perfect fit. I think this is just spin after missing out on higher ranked guys.

I think people get (rightfully) excited because if there is ONE thing Ewing has shown, it's that he's a great talent evaluator. So, this isn't just some blind hope/optimism -- it's confidence that Ewing has AGAIN signed a great talent that is going to help. I would also suggest listening to the new Casual Hoya podcast discussing Clark and Beard (posted in the Kobe Clark recruiting thread) for an expert's take; the guy isn't a Georgetown fan and he is quite bullish on the two players.

This great talent evaluator thing he always gets credit for seems a bit premature. It's spread around a lot but what is the basis for this? I think it all goes back to these big east freshman teams but they are just usage awards. Pat has played his freshman a lot so they get that award. It's possible that Pat is a great evaluator but what is the proof we have so far?