rhw485
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Post by rhw485 on Feb 11, 2020 7:36:24 GMT -5
I would hope to goodness that every scouting report would tell you, or it should be implicit, that you ALWAYS help on ball penetration. No shooter, even Curry at his hottest, should compel defenders to stand around the perimeter while their teammates get taken to the hoop. It is basic off and to the ball defense. You must contain dribble penetration, and if a defenders has to help, that is on the guy who got beaten, not the player who had to help to prevent a layup. If necessary, hopefully other players rotate and prevent the easy three. This point is fair and important. A few thoughts: 1. I keep harping on the pick and roll coverage because it's what leads to the dribble penetration. As RockawayHoya called out in the 1st game, Butler switched to involving Yurt7 in the pick and rolls in the 2nd half. Now you have splitting of screens, flipping the screen, and splits, which let Baldwin have a free run at the hoop with nobody to help. Very rarely is it our guy standing still just getting taken to the rack. It's that first action that causes a breakdown 2. Once that dribble penetration happens, yes someone has to help. The question is who? It could be Pickett, and then yes someone has to make an extra rotation over to McDermott. The problem is our team lacks discipline and everyone collapses on dribble penetration so there's nobody there to make the extra rotation over. So yes I agree it's not fair to put it all on Pickett if that is the defensive scheme 3. For a team that struggles making the extra rotation, it would be simpler to explicitly have the rule to not help off McDermott and have others provide the help. It's not perfect in that Pickett would be the best weakside defender to block the shot. But I'd rather have Allen or Mac collapse and kick it out to someone who isn't named McDermott and someone who isn't in the corner. Above the break 3 pointers are much lower percentage and get it in a worse shooters hands. 4. This is where it's hard to "assign" blame. Is Ewing tell Pickett to help and expecting someone else to come over? Or is Ewing telling Pickett not to leave McDermott at all costs? I imagine it's the 1st, which gets back to a difficult scheme being poorly executed. I imagine Ewing is going to start back w Pickett on Nze until he gets into foul trouble, and the same rule will apply to Allen when he's covering McDermott. These mistakes are the reason our defense has struggled. There's a lack of discipline and it leads to exactly the shot that the offense wants.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 11, 2020 8:23:43 GMT -5
I would hope to goodness that every scouting report would tell you, or it should be implicit, that you ALWAYS help on ball penetration. No shooter, even Curry at his hottest, should compel defenders to stand around the perimeter while their teammates get taken to the hoop. It is basic off and to the ball defense. You must contain dribble penetration, and if a defenders has to help, that is on the guy who got beaten, not the player who had to help to prevent a layup. If necessary, hopefully other players rotate and prevent the easy three. I’d rather give up a layup than a wide open 3. Guys like McDermott shooting wide open 3s are basically layups worth 3 points An open three is not, and never will be, a layup. Stop the ball always is the first mantra of good basketball defense. To prevent wide open threes, we need to sag off ball handlers a bit more (daring them to shoot), and the rotation has to be better. If Allen gets beaten off the dribble, leading Pickett to help, Mosely, for instance, may need to see what is coming the moment Pickett comes to help, and must sprint over to cover McDermott.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Feb 11, 2020 8:34:37 GMT -5
This is silly. You need to at minimum contest everything possible. Any scheme needs that as the goal.
Yes a wide open and truly uncontested (eg, a breakaway) layup is better for an offense than a wide open three. But a wide open three by a good shooter is a better shot for an offense than even a semi-contested layup. That is, it's better than the kind where there's at least the slight fear of a blocked shot in the back of your head. That's nowhere near a 90% proposition.
You don't help off great three point shooters. Period. It's not rocket science to build a scheme where others help and you give up open threes to lesser shooting guys. It's what every team everywhere does.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 11, 2020 9:09:27 GMT -5
You TRY not to help off great three-point shooters, but if you are the player in position to help to prevent a layup, you do it.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 11, 2020 9:39:59 GMT -5
You TRY not to help off great three-point shooters, but if you are the player in position to help to prevent a layup, you do it. Let’s see what you think should have happened in an actual example: During the Butler game, the ball was fed to their center, to the left of the paint and just outside of it. The GU center was between the player with the ball and the rim. On the same side of the court, Pickett was guarding McDermott, who was standing outside of the arc to the left side. The Butler center starts backing ours. Then, Pickett leaves McDermott to try to strip the ball from the Butler center, who has the ball almost 10 ft away from Pickett. The Butler center proceeds to pass it out to McDermott, who doesn’t need space to shoot, but is all alone anyway. Made 3. Who is responsible for that made 3? Why was one of the best shooters in the league left that open? Should Pickett always go for the ball? Was Pickett instructed to go for the strip when the player with the ball is not next to him, thus leaving a great shooter open, or do you think it was instinctive? If you’re thinking of answering that a GU player should have rotated over, let me add that on this play the other GU player to the same side was a 6’3” guard covering Baldwin, an all-league player, who had initiated the play and was standing outside of the arc towards the top. Our guard would have had to run towards McDermott, who is 6’6’, leave killer Baldwin alone, and hope McDermott takes too long with his shot. This last part did not happen because, as I said before, he’s a fast shooter and with good ball movement there is no time to cover. This last part is why GU is doing those circus fly-bys several times a game. That’s not good defense and is easily read by great players, i.e. Howard calmly letting Allen and then Mosely fly-by before nailing a 3 after an inbound pass.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Feb 11, 2020 9:59:47 GMT -5
You TRY not to help off great three-point shooters, but if you are the player in position to help to prevent a layup, you do it. Let’s see what you think should have happened in an actual example: During the Butler game, the ball was fed to their center, to the left of the paint and just outside of it. The GU center was between the player with the ball and the rim. On the same side of the court, Pickett was guarding McDermott, who was standing outside of the arc to the left side. The Butler center starts backing ours. Then, Pickett leaves McDermott to try to strip the ball from the Butler center, who has the ball almost 10 ft away from Pickett. The Butler center proceeds to pass it out to McDermott, who doesn’t need space to shoot, but is all alone anyway. Made 3. Who is responsible for that made 3? Why was one of the best shooters in the league left that open? Should Pickett always go for the ball? Was Pickett instructed to go for the strip when the player with the ball is not next to him, thus leaving a great shooter open, or do you think it was instinctive? If you’re thinking of answering that a GU player should have rotated over, on this play the other GU player to the same side was a 6’3” guard covering Baldwin, an all-league player, who had initiated the play and was standing outside of the arc towards the top. Our guard would have had to run towards McDermott, who is 6’6’, leave killer Baldwin alone, and hope McDermott takes too long with his shot. This last part did not happen because, as I said before, he’s a fast shooter and with good ball movement there is no time to cover. This last part is why GU is doing those circus fly-bys several times a game. That’s not good defense. I know you're asking hoyalove....but I think even he would say Pickett shouldnt help there. If our center is in decent guarding position, he doesn't need help. From anyone. But if the situation were slightly different and the center had a step or something, then it really should be one of the weak side defenders that slides over, not a guy on the strong side. If McDermott is on the weak side, then it needs to be another player. Either a different weak side player or, if necessary, someone from the strong side who is playing way off. That's the sort of adjustments that are clear (or should be) before a game. Again...not rocket science.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 11, 2020 10:07:12 GMT -5
You TRY not to help off great three-point shooters, but if you are the player in position to help to prevent a layup, you do it. Let’s see what you think should have happened in an actual example: During the Butler game, the ball was fed to their center, to the left of the paint and just outside of it. The GU center was between the player with the ball and the rim. On the same side of the court, Pickett was guarding McDermott, who was standing outside of the arc to the left side. The Butler center starts backing ours. Then, Pickett leaves McDermott to try to strip the ball from the Butler center, who has the ball almost 10 ft away from Pickett. The Butler center proceeds to pass it out to McDermott, who doesn’t need space to shoot, but is all alone anyway. Made 3. Who is responsible for that made 3? Why was one of the best shooters in the league left that open? Should Pickett always go for the ball? Was Pickett instructed to go for the strip when the player with the ball is not next to him, thus leaving a great shooter open, or do you think it was instinctive? If you’re thinking of answering that a GU player should have rotated over, let me add that on this play the other GU player to the same side was a 6’3” guard covering Baldwin, an all-league player, who had initiated the play and was standing outside of the arc towards the top. Our guard would have had to run towards McDermott, who is 6’6’, leave killer Baldwin alone, and hope McDermott takes too long with his shot. This last part did not happen because, as I said before, he’s a fast shooter and with good ball movement there is no time to cover. This last part is why GU is doing those circus fly-bys several times a game. That’s not good defense and is easily read by great players, i.e. Howard calmly letting Allen and then Mosely fly-by before nailing a 3 after an inbound pass. I agree that Pickett should not try to strip the center, leaving a great shooter open. I disagree that he should not leave McDermott when, for instance, as did happen, Baldwin drives to the basket with a step or two on his man. In that case, yes, Pickett should help, the other defender should come flying in, which is negated fairly easily by a decent ball fake. However, in that instance, you try to avoid the standing wide-open three, and force the player to execute a much more difficult move, like ball-faking, gathering himself, and sticking the jumper. Meanwhile, the other defenders need to be recovering. Constant, frantic movement at all times on defense.
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Feb 11, 2020 10:07:23 GMT -5
Overhelping on defense has been an issue for the Hoyas all year. This is not just an issue with Pickett, a lot of the guys have made that mistake this season and it has caused other teams to take, and make, a lot of 3's against the Hoyas. I don't know if that is part of the defensive scheme the staff teaches, or if it is just the players making poor decisions and not being able to recover quickly enough to contest. Hopefully they can remedy that issue in the upcoming games.
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rhw485
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Post by rhw485 on Feb 11, 2020 10:11:02 GMT -5
Let’s see what you think should have happened in an actual example: During the Butler game, the ball was fed to their center, to the left of the paint and just outside of it. The GU center was between the player with the ball and the rim. On the same side of the court, Pickett was guarding McDermott, who was standing outside of the arc to the left side. The Butler center starts backing ours. Then, Pickett leaves McDermott to try to strip the ball from the Butler center, who has the ball almost 10 ft away from Pickett. The Butler center proceeds to pass it out to McDermott, who doesn’t need space to shoot, but is all alone anyway. Made 3. Who is responsible for that made 3? Why was one of the best shooters in the league left that open? Should Pickett always go for the ball? Was Pickett instructed to go for the strip when the player with the ball is not next to him, thus leaving a great shooter open, or do you think it was instinctive? If you’re thinking of answering that a GU player should have rotated over, on this play the other GU player to the same side was a 6’3” guard covering Baldwin, an all-league player, who had initiated the play and was standing outside of the arc towards the top. Our guard would have had to run towards McDermott, who is 6’6’, leave killer Baldwin alone, and hope McDermott takes too long with his shot. This last part did not happen because, as I said before, he’s a fast shooter and with good ball movement there is no time to cover. This last part is why GU is doing those circus fly-bys several times a game. That’s not good defense. I know you're asking hoyalove....but I think even he would say Pickett shouldnt help there. If our center is in decent guarding position, he doesn't need help. From anyone. But if the situation were slightly different and the center had a step or something, then it really should be one of the weak side defenders that slides over, not a guy on the strong side. If McDermott is on the weak side, then it needs to be another player. Either a different weak side player or, if necessary, someone from the strong side who is playing way off. That's the sort of adjustments that are clear (or should be) before a game. Again...not rocket science. Yes agreed. This is an even simpler situation than dribble penetration. Our guards actively dig down on the strong side on post ups, regardless of whether there's a size advantage. We did that in the 1st half of the DePaul game w Butz posting up Yurt7, Blair doubled for no reason. Led to a wide open 3 after a few passes and Ewing called timeout right after
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 11, 2020 10:30:18 GMT -5
Yes agreed. This is an even simpler situation than dribble penetration. Our guards actively dig down on the strong side on post ups, regardless of whether there's a size advantage. We did that in the 1st half of the DePaul game w Butz posting up Yurt7, Blair doubled for no reason. Led to a wide open 3 after a few passes and Ewing called timeout right after Mac does it all the time. It’s obviously instructed and it needs to stop in situations like I described. Great shooters should never be left open. In fact, in the play I described, Pickett should stick close to McDermott and force the center to make another play by taking away a pass to McDermott and take more time off the shot clock.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 11, 2020 10:37:26 GMT -5
Overhelping on defense has been an issue for the Hoyas all year. This is not just an issue with Pickett, a lot of the guys have made that mistake this season and it has caused other teams to take, and make, a lot of 3's against the Hoyas. I don't know if that is part of the defensive scheme the staff teaches, or if it is just the players making poor decisions and not being able to recover quickly enough to contest. Hopefully they can remedy that issue in the upcoming games. I think they are instructed to be aggressive and go for steals when possible (rightly so), but our guys have struggled to implement that strategy effectively, in part due to the roster turmoil and guys playing out of position and with little rest.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Feb 11, 2020 11:44:35 GMT -5
Butler's D is below par. Hopefully Jamarko gets the scouting report this time. They only have 2 shooters. Guard those two outside, take your chances with their point guard shooting it and don't let Golden or Nze get easy looks inside. This should be a W (should have been the first go around too). I do not think it is fair to blame Pickett for the barrage of threes last game against Butler. He helped out when other players were beaten on drives to the basket. If we are not going to help on those plays, we need to sag wayyy off their ball handlers and beg them to fire away. They cannot drive to the rim with impunity. And, to be fair, Butler is going to get some good looks from three. They are a solid team, and every open three for them does not mean that one or more Hoyas somehow screwed up. Good teams get off good shots. Now, Pickett's offense may be another story. I really want him to get some confidence and turn the corner on that end. It was nice to see him make that three against DePaul; we need more of those. Hoyalove, there was a sequence where McDermott dropped I think three in a row on us. Yes the dribbler got level with the D player on him but didn't have a clear lane to the hoop. That is also where rim protection from our backside wing defender could help but rolling out the 3 guard line-ups we give that away. It's a pick your poison situation but I would rather a contested 2 at the rim than a wide open 3. Pickett opted for the wide open 3 every time and it crushed us and our tentative lead.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 11, 2020 12:34:10 GMT -5
Still hoping that our defensive reactions improve in all of these situations. As mentioned above, effective defense requires all 5 players to work together; if you are going to help off your man (which is frequently, but not always the correct move), another defender has to automatically rotate to your guy, with the other defenders reacting in turn, depending on the abilities of the other offensive players to shoot, drive, etc. The more any particular group of players can work together in practice, the more each one knows how the others will react, and therefore how he needs to react. The reductions in roster have changed those dynamics, although at this point our guys should be working together better than they do at times. You can see Patrick sometimes motioning to players after a breakdown has led to an open 3 or an uncontested layup, to indicate what their reaction should have been. Again, gotta hope they tighten up and work better together, and soon.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 11, 2020 12:43:18 GMT -5
I do not think it is fair to blame Pickett for the barrage of threes last game against Butler. He helped out when other players were beaten on drives to the basket. If we are not going to help on those plays, we need to sag wayyy off their ball handlers and beg them to fire away. They cannot drive to the rim with impunity. And, to be fair, Butler is going to get some good looks from three. They are a solid team, and every open three for them does not mean that one or more Hoyas somehow screwed up. Good teams get off good shots. Now, Pickett's offense may be another story. I really want him to get some confidence and turn the corner on that end. It was nice to see him make that three against DePaul; we need more of those. Hoyalove, there was a sequence where McDermott dropped I think three in a row on us. Yes the dribbler got level with the D player on him but didn't have a clear lane to the hoop. That is also where rim protection from our backside wing defender could help but rolling out the 3 guard line-ups we give that away. It's a pick your poison situation but I would rather a contested 2 at the rim than a wide open 3. Pickett opted for the wide open 3 every time and it crushed us and our tentative lead. Thanks- I would pick the poison of the open three every time, even after the first two (or more). But it is a lose-lose, based on the initial dribble penetration. As I said after the game- their offensive surge did not beat us- we lost because we stopped scoring. That is the key on Saturday- no prolonged periods when we do not score. And please for the love of mercy, if they go on a run like that, especially in their home arena, do not punctuate it with a timeout on our end. We need to save the TOs for when our guys are sucking air, and not waste them on "stopping" the run which so rarely is helpful.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Feb 11, 2020 14:09:16 GMT -5
What’s his percentage on wide open 3s? Probably significantly higher than low 40s Probably is. But is probably less than 8th graders shoot on open layups. Just to try to put some actual numbers to this exercise. Kamar Baldwin is shooting 56% on close 2 non dunk shots. Aaron Thompson is shooting 59%. While I don't have a McDermott open 3% even he shoots his average on those its better to have those likely guys attempt a close 2 than leave McDermott open.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Feb 11, 2020 14:11:16 GMT -5
Hoya Blue just tweeted a pick of Yurt7 and Jack. I presume this is from today. While you cant tell if he is wearing a brace, i would say as someone who has rolled his ankle plenty that just being in this bending position is a good sign for Yurt7.
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Feb 11, 2020 14:17:17 GMT -5
And to add, in this game (not the last one, but this one) if you want to rotate off of someone, Aaron Thompson has attempted 12 threes this season as a starting guard averaging 32MPG. He's only made one You don't respect hos outside shot at all. Using that to your advantage will be huge for the Hoyas. There's someone the overhelp on could actually work for.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 11, 2020 14:43:50 GMT -5
Probably is. But is probably less than 8th graders shoot on open layups. Just to try to put some actual numbers to this exercise. Kamar Baldwin is shooting 56% on close 2 non dunk shots. Aaron Thompson is shooting 59%. While I don't have a McDermott open 3% even he shoots his average on those its better to have those likely guys attempt a close 2 than leave McDermott open. I was really talking about uncontested layups, pretty sure Baldwin and Thompson are more than 50% on those. I was originally focusing on situations where the dribbler either splits both defenders on a high hedge or the hedge guy is so slow that the guy he is guarding rolls toward the basket wide open; presuming at least one defender is guarding on the opposite perimeter, we may need another defender - e.g. Pickett - to close down to avoid the open layup/dunk even at the risk of leaving an open 3. I do agree with your premise that Pickett, or anyone defending a good shooter, can't automatically drop in to pick up the ball or to double someone if there is someone else to try to contest the ball handler. We do that to much. Have to have better court awareness and discipline.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Feb 11, 2020 15:05:50 GMT -5
Just to try to put some actual numbers to this exercise. Kamar Baldwin is shooting 56% on close 2 non dunk shots. Aaron Thompson is shooting 59%. While I don't have a McDermott open 3% even he shoots his average on those its better to have those likely guys attempt a close 2 than leave McDermott open. I was really talking about uncontested layups, pretty sure Baldwin and Thompson are more than 50% on those. I was originally focusing on situations where the dribbler either splits both defenders on a high hedge or the hedge guy is so slow that the guy he is guarding rolls toward the basket wide open; presuming at least one defender is guarding on the opposite perimeter, we may need another defender - e.g. Pickett - to close down to avoid the open layup/dunk even at the risk of leaving an open 3. I do agree with your premise that Pickett, or anyone defending a good shooter, can't automatically drop in to pick up the ball or to double someone if there is someone else to try to contest the ball handler. We do that to much. Have to have better court awareness and discipline. Usually when we help off its not by the defender preventing a clear layup. Its the second guy in trying to get a hand in or even faint help to slow that guy down. We also double on post ups on non bigs way too much. If it is an uncontested layup/dunk I am with you. I don't think that is usually the case where we get ourselves in trouble.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Feb 11, 2020 15:52:16 GMT -5
One thing to take into consideration is that this might not be the game where you want Yurtseven hard hedging PnRs much at all because of the potential stress the hedge and recovery might put on his ankle. If he plays and if he is hedging hard early on that is probably a good sign about his ankle.
Totally agree with the "no long scoring droughts" mentioned above.
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