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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2021 7:10:23 GMT -5
Ashanti Cook was a classic combo if you ask me. Yes. I’d put Jessie Sapp in there too.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Apr 15, 2021 7:25:04 GMT -5
Michael Jackson. If Ty Beard approaches Jackson's skillset, we have a winner. Jackson was that rare guard who could play the point or shooting guard with equal skill. Following in the footsteps of Eric Floyd, Jackson was a starter from his first game on the team, shooting 46% from the field and a deadly 82% from the foul line in his debut season. Jackson was never intended to the main scoring option and in many cases, might have only been the fourth choice in the scoring rotation behind Patrick Ewing, Bill Martin, and David Wingate. www.hoyabasketball.com/players/m_jackson.htm
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Apr 15, 2021 7:42:46 GMT -5
Michael Jackson. If Ty Beard approaches Jackson's skillset, we have a winner. Jackson was that rare guard who could play the point or shooting guard with equal skill. Following in the footsteps of Eric Floyd, Jackson was a starter from his first game on the team, shooting 46% from the field and a deadly 82% from the foul line in his debut season. Jackson was never intended to the main scoring option and in many cases, might have only been the fourth choice in the scoring rotation behind Patrick Ewing, Bill Martin, and David Wingate.www.hoyabasketball.com/players/m_jackson.htmAnd Reggie too
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Post by hoyacane11 on Apr 15, 2021 8:13:00 GMT -5
Can the player help you win? If so, you can call them a combo or dorito or cheeto guard or whatever else floats your boat. lol, Right. Too many times here, people want to pigeon hole players into this or that. Most times there will be a 3 guard set out there, and it doesn't matter who's 1-3 because all of them have the ability to bring the ball up the court and to play off the ball and score. If you want to call them the point for that possession then go ahead, but Harris, Beard, Aminu, Mohammed etc. are just guard sized players.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Apr 15, 2021 8:31:24 GMT -5
Not all guards can bring the ball up under pressure.
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Post by hoyacane11 on Apr 15, 2021 10:00:36 GMT -5
Not all guards can bring the ball up under pressure. All the ones I mentioned can.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 15, 2021 10:20:51 GMT -5
Ashanti Cook was a classic combo if you ask me. Underrated player too. One of the best guards that played for both Esh and III. Not a bad actor either (Better Call Saul).
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Post by janestis308 on Apr 15, 2021 10:23:17 GMT -5
Ashanti Cook was a classic combo if you ask me. Underrated player too. One of the best guards that played for both Esh and III. Not a bad actor either (Better Call Saul). Wait...what? Is the true way? I never knew that....
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hoyaduck
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Post by hoyaduck on Apr 15, 2021 10:25:58 GMT -5
Underrated player too. One of the best guards that played for both Esh and III. Not a bad actor either (Better Call Saul). Wait...what? Is the true way? I never knew that.... Yeah he talks about it in his interview with the Dawg Talk boys: Austin Freeman and Chris Wright. Pretty good listen!
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 15, 2021 10:48:56 GMT -5
Underrated player too. One of the best guards that played for both Esh and III. Not a bad actor either (Better Call Saul). Wait...what? Is the true way? I never knew that....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2021 10:58:05 GMT -5
Michael Jackson. If Ty Beard approaches Jackson's skillset, we have a winner. Jackson was that rare guard who could play the point or shooting guard with equal skill. Following in the footsteps of Eric Floyd, Jackson was a starter from his first game on the team, shooting 46% from the field and a deadly 82% from the foul line in his debut season. Jackson was never intended to the main scoring option and in many cases, might have only been the fourth choice in the scoring rotation behind Patrick Ewing, Bill Martin, and David Wingate. www.hoyabasketball.com/players/m_jackson.htmI remember when Jackson lit the Carrier Dome up for 32 in his freshman year. He was on fire!
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 15, 2021 11:14:07 GMT -5
Michael Jackson. If Ty Beard approaches Jackson's skillset, we have a winner. Jackson was that rare guard who could play the point or shooting guard with equal skill. Following in the footsteps of Eric Floyd, Jackson was a starter from his first game on the team, shooting 46% from the field and a deadly 82% from the foul line in his debut season. Jackson was never intended to the main scoring option and in many cases, might have only been the fourth choice in the scoring rotation behind Patrick Ewing, Bill Martin, and David Wingate. www.hoyabasketball.com/players/m_jackson.htmI think Smitty would be a good example. He could play off the ball, take over a game or run the offense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2021 11:17:21 GMT -5
Michael Jackson. If Ty Beard approaches Jackson's skillset, we have a winner. Jackson was that rare guard who could play the point or shooting guard with equal skill. Following in the footsteps of Eric Floyd, Jackson was a starter from his first game on the team, shooting 46% from the field and a deadly 82% from the foul line in his debut season. Jackson was never intended to the main scoring option and in many cases, might have only been the fourth choice in the scoring rotation behind Patrick Ewing, Bill Martin, and David Wingate. www.hoyabasketball.com/players/m_jackson.htmI think Smitty would be a good example. He could play off the ball, take over a game or run the offense. He most certainly could! One of the most beloved Hoyas of all time.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Apr 15, 2021 21:29:21 GMT -5
Exactly. Size and shooting sometimes dictate if they get combo guard label. PG isn't a size position, but whether a player can see the floor, has high ball IQ, good handles to get / stay out of trouble, passes really well (assists, but often more importantly pass to assist). Often a PG that is taller than 6'3" that shoots well gets labelled a combo guard as they can also play shooting guard or wing roles where size helps. There is also the combo guard label used on smaller guards who don't have good point guard skills, but whose size limits their ability to guard and play (defend and guarded by) bigger players. The road for these thin skilled combo guards is much tougher. Beard is a really good PG who has size. Berger is tougher as he has PG skills, but his knock is quickness (defense and offensively creating his own shot or getting out of trouble). Great court vision and shooting, as well as size. I brought this up when Mac transferred to be a "PG"...I think the whole terminology of PG and SG isn't relevant in hoops at this point. You have a primary playmaker, who creates offense for themselves or others. Then you have secondary players who can either attack a close out or finish after the primary ballhandler makes a move (and in theory slide over when primary playmaker needs a breather), and then you have your finishers who are just rim runners or 3 point shooters. I'm sure there can be exceptions found to these roles but it feels largely right. John Hollinger coined the term "quarterback" and it feels right (link and excerpt from his article below). Debating whether Harden / Doncic are PG or SG is really irrelevant. For Gtown last year, the problem was we really didn't have one. Blair went through stretches where he was able to do this, and he was probably the closest. Dante would take over at times. But when we needed a bucket, we didn't always have a great answer or we'd try to force into Q which is difficult. Can Aminu/Dante/Carey be that type of player? Optimistic, we'll see next year. I wouldn't expect Beard to be able to do it day 1 but hopefully over time theathletic.com/1515619/2020/01/09/hollingers-nba-playmaker-tiers-ranking-the-leagues-top-quarterbacks/Quarterback.
It’s a not a real position in the NBA … yet. But perhaps we should start using the term and looking at the game this way. As our own Seth Partnow has noted, the league has become considerably more “heliocentric” in recent seasons, with a single player dominating a possession and then initiating offense for everyone else. This season 16 players have seen their Usage Rates soar into the 30s, including a few who aren’t exactly household names.
In the past we might have just called that person “point guard,” but it’s not an accurate term anymore. We’ve seen a lot more of the ballhandling and decision-making responsibility focused on players who are clearly forwards – whether it be the 6-7 Kawhi Leonard with the Clippers, the 6-7 Luka Doncic in Dallas, the 6-9 LeBron James for the the Lakers, or the 6-foot-a-gazillion Giannis Antetokounmpo for Milwaukee.
Despite several awesome bigs in this league (yes, still), they are largely absent from this particular discussion – the “quarterback” is nearly always a perimeter player, since hardly anybody posts up anymore and it’s so much harder to dictate the game from the block.Georgetown had a point guard last year and a damn good one in Dante. Blair seemed to think he was as he was pushed into that role early in the season, but he had no clue what he was doing. Dante nailed it, with not only controlling tempo, dribbling to shift the defense and create opportunities for others (often with a pass to an assist, just as a great point guard does), but can make plays for themselves, but also others, and are the extention coach on the floor. That is pretty much what Dante did after the Covid break and did it really well. Blair still tried, but didn't have anything close to a clue what he was doing and Patrick was continually yelling at him to move the ball and get the ball to Dante. Ewing was brutal with Blair quite often, but he wasn't getting it. Blair is a really good set shooter and off ball guard. For decades the discussion about a point forward or point center has been around, as the point was the person whom the game was run. They create for others and set plays, but also create mis-matches for themselves or teammates to take advantage of. They see the wholle court and are seeing plays and movement one or two steps ahead of what is currently happening. Some players have this inately and most learn it. It takes a couple years of hard work to move through the progressions. I've had the fortune of sitting with with players who get the point guard / point talk from former NBA point guards with more than 10 years in the league. This usually happens around middle school with a player who has good handles, plays with their head up, has a good understanding of the game already, can shoot, but is also may not have size to progress but has a lot of solid skills. The discussion runs along the lines of asking about their future plans and what the player thinks they want to do and if they want to be a good point guard or point in general. If they have an interest they walk through what is needed with seeing paths and patterns for themselves and others, how to protect the ball, how to work out of traps by themself, how to know who was abandoned by a trap and get them the ball as a starting point. But, the conversations continue every 3 to 6 months for a couple years as it is a long process and the hardest position on the court offensively. Terrell Allen was a point guard and did just this. Dante Harris is a really good point and does just this. Beard coming is is quite good, but will need to adjust to D1 play. Berger has the ball IQ and passing, but lacks quickness to get out of jams as well as the handles. Amino isn't a point, is an insanely good wing (guard / very small forward) who can shoot but is also insanely crafty on the offensive glass. He has high ball IQ and passes well, but is more transition and off ball. If you have a really good point he can focus on what he is great at and be really special. Mac left to be a point, but didn't didn't have a lot of the foundation for it. He was about the level of a player who is about a year in learning to be point guard, but not really wanting to be one. He didn't create to set up others well and wasn't seeing the floor for others one or two moves ahead of what was happening. He had Terrell to do that, but his skills improved a bit on offense with improved passing, but took the move to go to Texas Tech to learn that, but Tech had two really good point guards and Mac didn't really change his game much other than improve his 3 point shooting. He occasionally would run point in games where the opposing team didn't have a good defensive guard to play against a point. A point and be most any size, but is is controlling pace, creating opportunities to score for their own team as well as themself, but also keeping the ball moving and running the floor. They also should be a solid defender (often good offensive points who aren't good on defense shift more to shooting guard as if a point can defend and disrupt the other teams point like Dante destroyed Zegarowski that means they have ruined how the other team runs. Dante owns it on both sides and as a freshman showed hands down he knows the mental part and skills part of running a team as a point. He and Gillespie may be the best two in the Big East. The quarterback metaphor is a long worn metaphor usually used by people who don't quite understand basketball. There is an incredible amount to point mentally and with skills. Watching good points with really good footwork, which is what sets up a lot of what they do is a pleasure to watch. Often those players are the ones to watch on defense too. Dante puts on clinics on how a guard or wing should defend with their feet and stay tight (if a player has good footwork and insanely good foot speed with great weight distribution they can stay tight and not get blown by) and Dante put on master classes last year doing that. It was what a lot of coaches were calling out to their travel team's players to watch as it is insanely good.
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 15, 2021 21:47:48 GMT -5
I brought this up when Mac transferred to be a "PG"...I think the whole terminology of PG and SG isn't relevant in hoops at this point. You have a primary playmaker, who creates offense for themselves or others. Then you have secondary players who can either attack a close out or finish after the primary ballhandler makes a move (and in theory slide over when primary playmaker needs a breather), and then you have your finishers who are just rim runners or 3 point shooters. I'm sure there can be exceptions found to these roles but it feels largely right. John Hollinger coined the term "quarterback" and it feels right (link and excerpt from his article below). Debating whether Harden / Doncic are PG or SG is really irrelevant. For Gtown last year, the problem was we really didn't have one. Blair went through stretches where he was able to do this, and he was probably the closest. Dante would take over at times. But when we needed a bucket, we didn't always have a great answer or we'd try to force into Q which is difficult. Can Aminu/Dante/Carey be that type of player? Optimistic, we'll see next year. I wouldn't expect Beard to be able to do it day 1 but hopefully over time theathletic.com/1515619/2020/01/09/hollingers-nba-playmaker-tiers-ranking-the-leagues-top-quarterbacks/Quarterback.
It’s a not a real position in the NBA … yet. But perhaps we should start using the term and looking at the game this way. As our own Seth Partnow has noted, the league has become considerably more “heliocentric” in recent seasons, with a single player dominating a possession and then initiating offense for everyone else. This season 16 players have seen their Usage Rates soar into the 30s, including a few who aren’t exactly household names.
In the past we might have just called that person “point guard,” but it’s not an accurate term anymore. We’ve seen a lot more of the ballhandling and decision-making responsibility focused on players who are clearly forwards – whether it be the 6-7 Kawhi Leonard with the Clippers, the 6-7 Luka Doncic in Dallas, the 6-9 LeBron James for the the Lakers, or the 6-foot-a-gazillion Giannis Antetokounmpo for Milwaukee.
Despite several awesome bigs in this league (yes, still), they are largely absent from this particular discussion – the “quarterback” is nearly always a perimeter player, since hardly anybody posts up anymore and it’s so much harder to dictate the game from the block.Georgetown had a point guard last year and a damn good one in Dante. Blair seemed to think he was as he was pushed into that role early in the season, but he had no clue what he was doing. Dante nailed it, with not only controlling tempo, dribbling to shift the defense and create opportunities for others (often with a pass to an assist, just as a great point guard does), but can make plays for themselves, but also others, and are the extention coach on the floor. That is pretty much what Dante did after the Covid break and did it really well. Blair still tried, but didn't have anything close to a clue what he was doing and Patrick was continually yelling at him to move the ball and get the ball to Dante. Ewing was brutal with Blair quite often, but he wasn't getting it. Blair is a really good set shooter and off ball guard. For decades the discussion about a point forward or point center has been around, as the point was the person whom the game was run. They create for others and set plays, but also create mis-matches for themselves or teammates to take advantage of. They see the wholle court and are seeing plays and movement one or two steps ahead of what is currently happening. Some players have this inately and most learn it. It takes a couple years of hard work to move through the progressions. I've had the fortune of sitting with with players who get the point guard / point talk from former NBA point guards with more than 10 years in the league. This usually happens around middle school with a player who has good handles, plays with their head up, has a good understanding of the game already, can shoot, but is also may not have size to progress but has a lot of solid skills. The discussion runs along the lines of asking about their future plans and what the player thinks they want to do and if they want to be a good point guard or point in general. If they have an interest they walk through what is needed with seeing paths and patterns for themselves and others, how to protect the ball, how to work out of traps by themself, how to know who was abandoned by a trap and get them the ball as a starting point. But, the conversations continue every 3 to 6 months for a couple years as it is a long process and the hardest position on the court offensively. Terrell Allen was a point guard and did just this. Dante Harris is a really good point and does just this. Beard coming is is quite good, but will need to adjust to D1 play. Berger has the ball IQ and passing, but lacks quickness to get out of jams as well as the handles. Amino isn't a point, is an insanely good wing (guard / very small forward) who can shoot but is also insanely crafty on the offensive glass. He has high ball IQ and passes well, but is more transition and off ball. If you have a really good point he can focus on what he is great at and be really special. Mac left to be a point, but didn't didn't have a lot of the foundation for it. He was about the level of a player who is about a year in learning to be point guard, but not really wanting to be one. He didn't create to set up others well and wasn't seeing the floor for others one or two moves ahead of what was happening. He had Terrell to do that, but his skills improved a bit on offense with improved passing, but took the move to go to Texas Tech to learn that, but Tech had two really good point guards and Mac didn't really change his game much other than improve his 3 point shooting. He occasionally would run point in games where the opposing team didn't have a good defensive guard to play against a point. A point and be most any size, but is is controlling pace, creating opportunities to score for their own team as well as themself, but also keeping the ball moving and running the floor. They also should be a solid defender (often good offensive points who aren't good on defense shift more to shooting guard as if a point can defend and disrupt the other teams point like Dante destroyed Zegarowski that means they have ruined how the other team runs. Dante owns it on both sides and as a freshman showed hands down he knows the mental part and skills part of running a team as a point. He and Gillespie may be the best two in the Big East. The quarterback metaphor is a long worn metaphor usually used by people who don't quite understand basketball. There is an incredible amount to point mentally and with skills. Watching good points with really good footwork, which is what sets up a lot of what they do is a pleasure to watch. Often those players are the ones to watch on defense too. Dante puts on clinics on how a guard or wing should defend with their feet and stay tight (if a player has good footwork and insanely good foot speed with great weight distribution they can stay tight and not get blown by) and Dante put on master classes last year doing that. It was what a lot of coaches were calling out to their travel team's players to watch as it is insanely good. Good post. How would you assess Mark Jackson (st John’s/ knicks/ pacers) as a point guard?
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s4hoyas
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Post by s4hoyas on Apr 15, 2021 21:55:18 GMT -5
I think Jason Clark might be the best comp...about the same size (6'2/long and lean) an athletic scorer, good defender and handled it enough to be a solid contributor as a ball handler/passer when needed without being the primary point guard...
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 16, 2021 4:42:02 GMT -5
Michael Jackson. If Ty Beard approaches Jackson's skillset, we have a winner. Jackson was that rare guard who could play the point or shooting guard with equal skill. Following in the footsteps of Eric Floyd, Jackson was a starter from his first game on the team, shooting 46% from the field and a deadly 82% from the foul line in his debut season. Jackson was never intended to the main scoring option and in many cases, might have only been the fourth choice in the scoring rotation behind Patrick Ewing, Bill Martin, and David Wingate. www.hoyabasketball.com/players/m_jackson.htmI remember when Jackson lit the Carrier Dome up for 32 in his freshman year. He was on fire! 31 but why quibble...
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Apr 16, 2021 8:18:36 GMT -5
Georgetown had a point guard last year and a damn good one in Dante. Blair seemed to think he was as he was pushed into that role early in the season, but he had no clue what he was doing. Dante nailed it, with not only controlling tempo, dribbling to shift the defense and create opportunities for others (often with a pass to an assist, just as a great point guard does), but can make plays for themselves, but also others, and are the extention coach on the floor. That is pretty much what Dante did after the Covid break and did it really well. Blair still tried, but didn't have anything close to a clue what he was doing and Patrick was continually yelling at him to move the ball and get the ball to Dante. Ewing was brutal with Blair quite often, but he wasn't getting it. Blair is a really good set shooter and off ball guard. For decades the discussion about a point forward or point center has been around, as the point was the person whom the game was run. They create for others and set plays, but also create mis-matches for themselves or teammates to take advantage of. They see the wholle court and are seeing plays and movement one or two steps ahead of what is currently happening. Some players have this inately and most learn it. It takes a couple years of hard work to move through the progressions. I've had the fortune of sitting with with players who get the point guard / point talk from former NBA point guards with more than 10 years in the league. This usually happens around middle school with a player who has good handles, plays with their head up, has a good understanding of the game already, can shoot, but is also may not have size to progress but has a lot of solid skills. The discussion runs along the lines of asking about their future plans and what the player thinks they want to do and if they want to be a good point guard or point in general. If they have an interest they walk through what is needed with seeing paths and patterns for themselves and others, how to protect the ball, how to work out of traps by themself, how to know who was abandoned by a trap and get them the ball as a starting point. But, the conversations continue every 3 to 6 months for a couple years as it is a long process and the hardest position on the court offensively. Terrell Allen was a point guard and did just this. Dante Harris is a really good point and does just this. Beard coming is is quite good, but will need to adjust to D1 play. Berger has the ball IQ and passing, but lacks quickness to get out of jams as well as the handles. Amino isn't a point, is an insanely good wing (guard / very small forward) who can shoot but is also insanely crafty on the offensive glass. He has high ball IQ and passes well, but is more transition and off ball. If you have a really good point he can focus on what he is great at and be really special. Mac left to be a point, but didn't didn't have a lot of the foundation for it. He was about the level of a player who is about a year in learning to be point guard, but not really wanting to be one. He didn't create to set up others well and wasn't seeing the floor for others one or two moves ahead of what was happening. He had Terrell to do that, but his skills improved a bit on offense with improved passing, but took the move to go to Texas Tech to learn that, but Tech had two really good point guards and Mac didn't really change his game much other than improve his 3 point shooting. He occasionally would run point in games where the opposing team didn't have a good defensive guard to play against a point. A point and be most any size, but is is controlling pace, creating opportunities to score for their own team as well as themself, but also keeping the ball moving and running the floor. They also should be a solid defender (often good offensive points who aren't good on defense shift more to shooting guard as if a point can defend and disrupt the other teams point like Dante destroyed Zegarowski that means they have ruined how the other team runs. Dante owns it on both sides and as a freshman showed hands down he knows the mental part and skills part of running a team as a point. He and Gillespie may be the best two in the Big East. The quarterback metaphor is a long worn metaphor usually used by people who don't quite understand basketball. There is an incredible amount to point mentally and with skills. Watching good points with really good footwork, which is what sets up a lot of what they do is a pleasure to watch. Often those players are the ones to watch on defense too. Dante puts on clinics on how a guard or wing should defend with their feet and stay tight (if a player has good footwork and insanely good foot speed with great weight distribution they can stay tight and not get blown by) and Dante put on master classes last year doing that. It was what a lot of coaches were calling out to their travel team's players to watch as it is insanely good. Good post. How would you assess Mark Jackson (st John’s/ knicks/ pacers) as a point guard? Mark Jackson was a really good point. He also had a really good shot and ability to get to the rim and he looked for himself. He was incredibly good floor general changing things up as needed. He was one who was really good at the pass to assist (particularly on the Pacers). His PG skills and IQ improved the longer he was in the league and the second tour with the Knicks and paired with Allan Houston I thought was a really good pairing. His first stint with the Knicks he really was a combo guard as his PG IQ wasn't the greatest, but his value was as a tough off ball guard. One of my favorite point guards was Tim Hardaway in Golden State's Run TMC years, but also in Miami. Also Magic who saw the court amazingly well and has insanely good passes that his teammates in perfect shooting motion ready to go up as well as leading them to the correct side to roll off a defender easily.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Apr 16, 2021 8:20:37 GMT -5
I think Jason Clark might be the best comp...about the same size (6'2/long and lean) an athletic scorer, good defender and handled it enough to be a solid contributor as a ball handler/passer when needed without being the primary point guard... Size and skills a decent comparison, but Beard has much better on ball IQ and sees the court as a point guard, that wasn't something Clark had, Clark was good off ball and could drive and kick, but not run the team on the court.
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smokeyjack
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Post by smokeyjack on Apr 16, 2021 8:36:30 GMT -5
I think Jason Clark might be the best comp...about the same size (6'2/long and lean) an athletic scorer, good defender and handled it enough to be a solid contributor as a ball handler/passer when needed without being the primary point guard... Size and skills a decent comparison, but Beard has much better on ball IQ and sees the court as a point guard, that wasn't something Clark had, Clark was good off ball and could drive and kick, but not run the team on the court. And Clark was freakishly long for a guy his size. He had wingspan of a 7-footer. Looked like he could tie his shoes without bending over. Sadly, that never translated into the kind of defensive prowess that seemed possible for him. Beard is way more of a standard off-the-rack combo in terms of measurables and skills. Really needs to work on his shot if he wants to see significant minutes on Hilltop.
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