TC
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Post by TC on Jan 22, 2020 16:05:25 GMT -5
I'm not 100% sure but I thought Ewing signed a 4 or 5-year deal when he was hired if so isn't it time for PE & Gtown to start talking extension? When your Coach has yet to make the tournament?
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Jan 22, 2020 16:10:16 GMT -5
I just don't see how missing the tournament in your first four or five years doesn't count as "wheels falling off," unless you have a monster class coming in, or something of that nature. I mean, wasn't the reason we made a change in the first place because our team missed the tournament in 3 of 4 years? I mean, isn't that the reason the "wheels came off"? The fact that fans are using wildly different standards now than they did in 2016/2017 probably should not surprise me. I just thought many of the gripes with the previous regime were that we weren't making the tournament, and when we did (regardless of the high seeds), we flamed out in the first round. If we don't make the tournament by the end of 2021, I think pressure, etc. will be a lot different than it is today. Hopefully, we never see that day, because we make the tournament. It's just a difference in perception, I guess. It is certainly true that JTIII's inability to get into the tournament was a factor, but there was also a sense that things were falling apart and that the direction of the program was south. I also recall rumblings that his dismissal was actually a close call and that he might have survived had he been able to hang on to Waters. In other words, I think in GU's world stability matters as much as winning. If Patrick can hold steady, he has a puncher's chance of surviving regardless of what happens with the tournament. I would hope that GU would aim for better than stable mediocrity. That’s the best case scenario for the rest of this season and next. We have some sports where that is fine (I played one of them) but those are also sports where we invest virtually zero so expecting more is not reasonable. Clearly men’s basketball should be held to a much higher standard..
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 22, 2020 16:23:36 GMT -5
I'm not 100% sure but I thought Ewing signed a 4 or 5-year deal when he was hired if so isn't it time for PE & Gtown to start talking extension? When your Coach has yet to make the tournament? This was the 1st year that making the tourney was realistic from the start so one missed year isn't crazy to me but on the other hand, it looks like the program is in a rebuild for next year. The bottom line is If you're not talking extension, then he'll be a lame-duck pretty soon. Hard to coach & recruit in that situation. My point is Gtown needs to start thinking longterm some if you feel he's your guy show the world, if not move on.
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Post by bicentennial on Jan 23, 2020 0:06:56 GMT -5
I would like to apologize for my fascist bully boy comment. I meant it in gest. It was meant to be a ridiculous insult. I got it from a hilarious BBC show called the young ones. If anyone took it as a serious insult, I am very sorry. I agree with those who are disheartened by our season so far. I feel it is unfair for anyone to argue that Patrick Ewing is to blame for all of the 4 student athletes leaving the program. You can either have a head coach who upholds Georgetown's standards and strives for excellence and is given time to rebuild the program or you can doom the program forever to the bottom of the Big East. Anyone unwilling to give Ewing 5 years has an unreasonable expectation. Such unreasonable expectations doomed DePaul to mediocrity for more than 20 years. Hopefully, Georgetown will learn from other programs and follow a better path by giving the coach adequate time to rebuild.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Jan 23, 2020 0:29:41 GMT -5
When your Coach has yet to make the tournament? This was the 1st year that making the tourney was realistic from the start so one missed year isn't crazy to me but on the other hand, it looks like the program is in a rebuild for next year. The bottom line is If you're not talking extension, then he'll be a lame-duck pretty soon. Hard to coach & recruit in that situation. My point is Gtown needs to start thinking longterm some if you feel he's your guy show the world, if not move on. The team last year was better than this team right now. Most everyone agrees that 9-9 would get us in. We weren’t that far off last year from getting in and went 9-9. The reason we didn’t make the tournament last year was because of the OOC schedule and that falls squarely on Ewing. I realize there weren’t tournament hopes going into last year but that was no excuse to put the team behind the 8 ball before the season started. If we make the tournament last year Ewing has a long runway. Now I think it perfectly fair to say if he doesn’t make it this year or next it’s time to start looking elsewhere. I will admit that I think the defections this year are on him so I’m not giving him a do-over. He should be given next year obviously and there should not be any talk about making the change after this year.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Jan 23, 2020 0:44:11 GMT -5
I will admit that I think the defections this year are on him so I’m not giving him a do-over. This is really the most basic question regarding the future isn't it? With the possible exception of Akinjo, I don't see holding Patrick responsible and have started to view this year as irrelevant in a lot of ways. The talent is simply not there. But, sure, if you think LeBlanc, Gardner, and Alexander are on Pat, it becomes a different picture.
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hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Jan 23, 2020 0:55:41 GMT -5
I will admit that I think the defections this year are on him so I’m not giving him a do-over. This is really the most basic question regarding the future isn't it? With the possible exception of Akinjo, I don't see holding Patrick responsible and have started to view this year as irrelevant in a lot of ways. The talent is simply not there. But, sure, if you think LeBlanc, Gardner, and Alexander are on Pat, it becomes a different picture. I think the way Pat handled Josh this year led to him and James leaving which eventually led to the other two being asked to leave. If Josh is put back in the starting lineup after his one game punishment I don’t think any of this happens. I’m sure Pat defenders will say if those 3 never do whatever they allegedly did than that part never happens. Regardless Pat handled it terribly. Now that being said he had another huge problem on his hands that he didn’t seem to be willing to fix. That could’ve ultimately led to them leaving eventually as that was a fire keg waiting to blow up and maybe it did after the UNCG game. That one worked itself out with Josh and James leaving.
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guru
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Post by guru on Jan 23, 2020 7:54:17 GMT -5
When your Coach has yet to make the tournament? At this point it is debatable whether he is the best GU coach in this Century whose last name begins with the letter E; so yes, I think talks of extension are premature right now. You keep using this line. It’s not clever.
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Post by HoyaRejuveNation85 on Jan 23, 2020 9:36:09 GMT -5
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Mine is that although I was hopeful that Patrick would become a good coach and lead us back to being an impactful program, which by the time JT3 left we were not and the team and fans were reeling, I was concerned about the hiring. I would have preferred a "safer" choice of someone with demonstrated head coaching experience and AAU/HS connections. I expected this to be on the job training to a significant degree and it has been. Patrick, in my view, is still evolving as a coach. He's better than he was his first year and last year. Other coaches and commentators have made positive comments about his ability. The team and program was a train wreck when he came on board. We are way more competitive now than then. He hasn't landed the big fish per se in recruiting, but he's got a great eye for talent. To some degree, that's hurt him as the gems he uncovers early tend to blow up and attract the attention of teams with more recent success. I had no illusions that this was anything but a major rebuilding project. Just because my expectations this year were raised by last year's recruiting class, I'm not willing to forget that, especially when we suffered a setback in losing the 4 players. I'm not so sure any of them could have made it to next year as the internal disciplinary processes unfolded (or that James would be willing to share the ball more as the coaches demanded). The professors' uninformed letter which was leaked to the press did not help anything. This was compounded by recruiting losses -- not landing RJ Davis and "losing" Terrance Williams. They hurt badly and were salt on an open wound. Next year could be tough too -- no denying it, but I'm in it for the long haul. Many good/great coaches today, even those at blue bloods experienced their own growing pains in building or rebuilding programs (Coach K, etc.). Shoot, Seton Hall appears to be the class of this strong conference this year and its coach Kevin Willard came within an inch of being dismissed several years ago. He had a roster filled with division, etc., but the Hall kept him and he got better in all facets. He won some big recruits, others became more than anyone dreamed of (Powell for instance) and now he has a program that makes the tournament regularly and plays the type of ball we old-time Hoya fans appreciate (tough defense). My point is I think we have the hard-working coach we need and now we just need to support him and the team and prove that no one is bigger than the program. And, in my view, Patrick has been the perfect person to respectfully transition the program from old Georgetown to new Georgetown.
I'm in his corner and I think that he deserves a long leash, and yes the fact that he's the most important player in the history of the program does come into play. The possibility of another Shaka or a coach at Mt. St. Mary's isn't going to make me make join a chorus of naysayers with their own agendas, who seek his premature dismissal and undermine his prospects almost daily, and most assuredly after any loss.
Hoya Saxa!
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 23, 2020 11:14:02 GMT -5
I would like to apologize for my fascist bully boy comment. I meant it in gest. It was meant to be a ridiculous insult. I got it from a hilarious BBC show called the young ones. If anyone took it as a serious insult, I am very sorry. I agree with those who are disheartened by our season so far. I feel it is unfair for anyone to argue that Patrick Ewing is to blame for all of the 4 student athletes leaving the program. You can either have a head coach who upholds Georgetown's standards and strives for excellence and is given time to rebuild the program or you can doom the program forever to the bottom of the Big East. I want a coach that upholds Georgetown's standards, and I find it weird that people give Patrick Ewing credit for upholding standards in the case of the transfers this year when all signs point to the opposite. Josh LeBlanc sat for one game, and then played before transferring, and Alexander and Gardner played every game. How is that upholding standards? I generally think that people are probably right that the faculty letter forced Georgetown's (not Patrick Ewing's, but Georgetown's) hand here, and you seem to credit Patrick Ewing for upholding something when it doesn't seem like he was the decision maker and seemed perfectly content to play all of those kids.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 23, 2020 11:34:13 GMT -5
As I have said elsewhere, I think it would be unreasonable to expect any changes after this year at the top. Perhaps Ewing will decide to make changes to his own staff, and I think that could be a good idea, but ultimately, it's hard to know whether that will make a significant impact anyway. That said, I think as fans we are doing a disservice if we do not look at things as they are.
First, the roster next year returns scholarship players Blair, Pickett, McClung, Wahab, Ighoefe, Wilson. Six guys. And we bring in freshman Dante Harris, and Sibley. So, that's 8 scholarship players, and three of them are centers (two of whom are largely projects). That makes this year's squad look deep. We all know Ewing is out there, trying really hard to recruit, and I truly hope he's successful, but even if he adds some nice pieces, we are likely looking at a roster with less talent than this year's roster. If we don't make the tournament this year, it's hard to see us making it next year unless Ewing knocks recruiting out of the park in the spring. So, next year looks tough.
Second, on the departures, no doubt the off-court stuff led to LeBlanc, Alexander, and Gardner leaving. All that said, I think it is important to note that even though guys like Chris Sodom and Antwan Walker were "dismissed" from the program, those three were not. And, it seems at least in Gardner's case, that he likely could have stayed if he chose to. And, as far as the public knows, Akinjo, the Big East Player of the Year decided to leave his team and coach in the middle of the season to go elsewhere. I've said this before, but I will say it again: that is extremely, extremely uncommon. The roster upheaval and churn we have seen over the last couple of years is not normal. Now, fans on HoyaTalk clearly differ on whether Ewing is responsible. I lean toward the camp that does hold him responsible, after all, it's his team and he's effectively the general manager and coach. Others blame the guys more and hold Ewing less accountable.
Third, I think most people agree that Ewing is an extremely hard working guy. He flies all over the country getting recruits, he seems to put a lot of effort into the program, he does a good job of representing the university. And, by all accounts, he strives to run a clean program. This is a positive.
Fourth, Ewing is a Georgetown legend. Regardless of how we all felt when he was hired, the fact is the guy is extremely respected, helped to put Georgetown basketball on the map, and is absolutely beloved by the fans, and for good reason. For that reason, you have to give the guy a chance. I think that's at least four years. Chris Mullin was, by far, a worse coach than Ewing, and St. Johns gave him 4 years. And even then Mullin was largely let go because of the lack of hope/prospects for the future.
Fifth, the product on the court has been mediocre, at best. Definitely some good moments here and there, but also bad ones. I really don't think this is debatable. Obviously, Ewing started with the remains of JT3's roster, so you have to give the guy time to forge his own path, recruit his own guys, etc. Year 1 wasn't great, but that was to be expected. On paper, Year 2 looked better, in that we went 9-9, but it was a down year in the conference. Nonetheless, we made the NIT, so I can see this. Still, there were red flags - notably, most of the advanced metrics did not show that the 2019 team was better than the 2018 team. Fast forward to 2020, and the team definitely appears to be better overall compared to last season (even if our record ends up worse in the Big East, it's a tougher conference by far), and we've had some good moments, but also a lot of head scratching ones. Realistically, I think making the tournament was a legitimate goal for us, because it would have shown an upward trajectory. I still hope it happens, but if it doesn't, that means the progress is stalled, with next year looking even more bleak.
Sixth, again, I don't think it's debatable that Coach Ewing has not demonstrated he can coach a good defense. For those thinking I am picking on Ewing, JT3 did a very bad job of coaching defense after the rules changed after 2013, too, and he never figured it out. This is not just a depth issue, as our defense was bad before the defections this season, and also last year. And, Ewing talked a lot about improving defense, yet we aren't seeing that. I am not sure what the solution is, but if I were Ewing I would look for an assistant coach defensive guru and bring that person in this off season. It's crucial to future success.
Lastly, it is clear, at least to me, that the overall best outcome for Georgetown is for Ewing to succeed. He's the most famous basketball name to play at Georgetown. He's our coach. It's in everybody's interest for him to succeed. We are just at the point now where the window for success is getting shorter, and frankly, it worries me that it may be difficult.
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Post by wrestlemania on Jan 23, 2020 11:55:40 GMT -5
As I have said elsewhere, I think it would be unreasonable to expect any changes after this year at the top. Perhaps Ewing will decide to make changes to his own staff, and I think that could be a good idea, but ultimately, it's hard to know whether that will make a significant impact anyway. That said, I think as fans we are doing a disservice if we do not look at things as they are. First, the roster next year returns scholarship players Blair, Pickett, McClung, Wahab, Ighoefe, Wilson. Six guys. And we bring in freshman Dante Harris, and Sibley. So, that's 8 scholarship players, and three of them are centers (two of whom are largely projects). That makes this year's squad look deep. We all know Ewing is out there, trying really hard to recruit, and I truly hope he's successful, but even if he adds some nice pieces, we are likely looking at a roster with less talent than this year's roster. If we don't make the tournament this year, it's hard to see us making it next year unless Ewing knocks recruiting out of the park in the spring. So, next year looks tough. Second, on the departures, no doubt the off-court stuff led to LeBlanc, Alexander, and Gardner leaving. All that said, I think it is important to note that even though guys like Chris Sodom and Antwan Walker were "dismissed" from the program, those three were not. And, it seems at least in Gardner's case, that he likely could have stayed if he chose to. And, as far as the public knows, Akinjo, the Big East Player of the Year decided to leave his team and coach in the middle of the season to go elsewhere. I've said this before, but I will say it again: that is extremely, extremely uncommon. The roster upheaval and churn we have seen over the last couple of years is not normal. Now, fans on HoyaTalk clearly differ on whether Ewing is responsible. I lean toward the camp that does hold him responsible, after all, it's his team and he's effectively the general manager and coach. Others blame the guys more and hold Ewing less accountable. Third, I think most people agree that Ewing is an extremely hard working guy. He flies all over the country getting recruits, he seems to put a lot of effort into the program, he does a good job of representing the university. And, by all accounts, he strives to run a clean program. This is a positive. Fourth, Ewing is a Georgetown legend. Regardless of how we all felt when he was hired, the fact is the guy is extremely respected, helped to put Georgetown basketball on the map, and is absolutely beloved by the fans, and for good reason. For that reason, you have to give the guy a chance. I think that's at least four years. Chris Mullin was, by far, a worse coach than Ewing, and St. Johns gave him 4 years. And even then Mullin was largely let go because of the lack of hope/prospects for the future. Fifth, the product on the court has been mediocre, at best. Definitely some good moments here and there, but also bad ones. I really don't think this is debatable. Obviously, Ewing started with the remains of JT3's roster, so you have to give the guy time to forge his own path, recruit his own guys, etc. Year 1 wasn't great, but that was to be expected. On paper, Year 2 looked better, in that we went 9-9, but it was a down year in the conference. Nonetheless, we made the NIT, so I can see this. Still, there were red flags - notably, most of the advanced metrics did not show that the 2019 team was better than the 2018 team. Fast forward to 2020, and the team definitely appears to be better overall compared to last season (even if our record ends up worse in the Big East, it's a tougher conference by far), and we've had some good moments, but also a lot of head scratching ones. Realistically, I think making the tournament was a legitimate goal for us, because it would have shown an upward trajectory. I still hope it happens, but if it doesn't, that means the progress is stalled, with next year looking even more bleak. Sixth, again, I don't think it's debatable that Coach Ewing has not demonstrated he can coach a good defense. For those thinking I am picking on Ewing, JT3 did a very bad job of coaching defense after the rules changed after 2013, too, and he never figured it out. This is not just a depth issue, as our defense was bad before the defections this season, and also last year. And, Ewing talked a lot about improving defense, yet we aren't seeing that. I am not sure what the solution is, but if I were Ewing I would look for an assistant coach defensive guru and bring that person in this off season. It's crucial to future success. Lastly, it is clear, at least to me, that the overall best outcome for Georgetown is for Ewing to succeed. He's the most famous basketball name to play at Georgetown. He's our coach. It's in everybody's interest for him to succeed. We are just at the point now where the window for success is getting shorter, and frankly, it worries me that it may be difficult. Well put. I'd add that there is also an institutional problem here, to the point where it's debatable whether GU would be motivated to remove Patrick even if the program falls flat next year. The issue isn't tolerance for mediocrity -- it's more about internal politics and shifting priorities. Win or lose, the basketball program's place in student life has changed, and it's naïve to think that the decisionmakers haven't noticed this.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Jan 23, 2020 12:02:38 GMT -5
I would debate and take issue with the notion that Ewing is a bad defensive coach.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2020 12:06:13 GMT -5
I would debate and take issue with the notion that Ewing is a bad defensive coach. You could, I suppose, but I'd stay away from numbers to back up your argument.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 23, 2020 12:27:59 GMT -5
This was the 1st year that making the tourney was realistic from the start so one missed year isn't crazy to me but on the other hand, it looks like the program is in a rebuild for next year. The bottom line is If you're not talking extension, then he'll be a lame-duck pretty soon. Hard to coach & recruit in that situation. My point is Gtown needs to start thinking longterm some if you feel he's your guy show the world, if not move on. The team last year was better than this team right now. Most everyone agrees that 9-9 would get us in. We weren’t that far off last year from getting in and went 9-9. The reason we didn’t make the tournament last year was because of the OOC schedule and that falls squarely on Ewing. I realize there weren’t tournament hopes going into last year but that was no excuse to put the team behind the 8 ball before the season started. If we make the tournament last year Ewing has a long runway. Now I think it perfectly fair to say if he doesn’t make it this year or next it’s time to start looking elsewhere. I will admit that I think the defections this year are on him so I’m not giving him a do-over. He should be given next year obviously and there should not be any talk about making the change after this year. This is the point I think the writers from The Hoya were trying to make, if Gtown misses the tournament this season then a lot of folks will have PE on notice for next season.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Jan 23, 2020 13:02:21 GMT -5
I would debate and take issue with the notion that Ewing is a bad defensive coach. I'm sure your case will be very strong as long as you avoid any stats or observations.
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madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Jan 23, 2020 13:20:40 GMT -5
I would debate and take issue with the notion that Ewing is a bad defensive coach. I am not sure if Ewing is a bad defensive coach, but we are certainly a bad defensive team. what is your position? 1. We are a bad defensive team despite good defensive coaching, because the talent isn't there----bad defensive players. 2. We are a good defensive team with good defensive coaching and any objective measurable analytics or statistics that suggest otherwise do not tell the story.
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rhw485
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Post by rhw485 on Jan 23, 2020 13:23:13 GMT -5
The team last year was better than this team right now. Most everyone agrees that 9-9 would get us in. We weren’t that far off last year from getting in and went 9-9. The reason we didn’t make the tournament last year was because of the OOC schedule and that falls squarely on Ewing. I realize there weren’t tournament hopes going into last year but that was no excuse to put the team behind the 8 ball before the season started. If we make the tournament last year Ewing has a long runway. Now I think it perfectly fair to say if he doesn’t make it this year or next it’s time to start looking elsewhere. I will admit that I think the defections this year are on him so I’m not giving him a do-over. He should be given next year obviously and there should not be any talk about making the change after this year. This is the point I think the writers from The Hoya was trying to make, if Gtown misses the tournament this season then a lot of folks will have PE on notice for next season. Agree with this. And the whole thing boils down to really whether that was necessary to say on January 17th, as opposed to after the season plays out. After the season, I think it will be more interesting to look at other major conference programs who replaced a coach and are in year 3. Off the top of my head that's NC State, LSU, Illinois, Oklahoma St etc. Texas Tech made finals in year 3 last year, Penny looks ahead of schedule in year 2 at Memphis, tbd on where you think UConn is but we're a year ahead of them. Then I think we can properly evaluate how Ewing is doing if we're not more optimistic about our future than those other programs who were in similar spots. They're not all perfect comparisons but it's the closest I can think of
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madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Jan 23, 2020 13:28:33 GMT -5
This is the point I think the writers from The Hoya was trying to make, if Gtown misses the tournament this season then a lot of folks will have PE on notice for next season. Agree with this. And the whole thing boils down to really whether that was necessary to say on January 17th, as opposed to after the season plays out. After the season, I think it will be more interesting to look at other major conference programs who replaced a coach and are in year 3. Off the top of my head that's NC State, LSU, Illinois, Oklahoma St etc. Texas Tech made finals in year 3 last year, Penny looks ahead of schedule in year 2 at Memphis, tbd on where you think UConn is but we're a year ahead of them. Then I think we can properly evaluate how Ewing is doing if we're not more optimistic about our future than those other programs who were in similar spots. They're not all perfect comparisons but it's the closest I can think of I think need to add Indiana and Georgia-- think Miller and Crean were both hired same year as Ewing.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Jan 23, 2020 13:36:33 GMT -5
Agree with this. And the whole thing boils down to really whether that was necessary to say on January 17th, as opposed to after the season plays out. After the season, I think it will be more interesting to look at other major conference programs who replaced a coach and are in year 3. Off the top of my head that's NC State, LSU, Illinois, Oklahoma St etc. Texas Tech made finals in year 3 last year, Penny looks ahead of schedule in year 2 at Memphis, tbd on where you think UConn is but we're a year ahead of them. Then I think we can properly evaluate how Ewing is doing if we're not more optimistic about our future than those other programs who were in similar spots. They're not all perfect comparisons but it's the closest I can think of I think need to add Indiana and Georgia-- think Miller and Crean were both hired same year as Ewing. I think it's very fair and reasonable to make these comparisons - and unless something drastically changes in the next 1.5 months, it's not going to be pretty for Ewing when benchmarking his program vs. the others on this list. I also believe that the time to have this discussion is after the season, not during it. But the trend lines are not looking good... Additionally for all these people talking about grad transfers and decommits for the recruiting class, I think it's important to remember that Georgetown will likely be lower on the pecking order than many programs when the grad transfers and decommits consider their options. Each spring, scholarships open up at places like Duke, Kentucky, etc. when underclassmen go pro early. Those are the programs that typically get the pick of the litter for grad transfers and decommits. As such, Georgtown needs to lock up recruits right now, before the better programs have openings. If you're Seth Towns from Harvard, are you really very likely to choose Georgetown over hometown Ohio State or interested top programs like Kentucky? Particularly going into Ewing's fourth year when from any objective measure he's likely to be on the hot seat?
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