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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 19, 2020 18:42:15 GMT -5
I think you are underestimating the times it gets "beat" per game. Getting beat does not just mean either the dribbler or the screener getting to the basket for a chippie. It also means other defenders having to help because the hedge guy does not recover quickly enough, leaving their man open on the perimeter. That happened multiple times yesterday. Yurtseven and particularly Wahab (which is not surprising for a freshman) are actually not that good at recovering which is the key, although Yurt has shown improvement.
And spend a few moments on a Syracuse forum and see how many of their fans beg Boeheim to at least throw in some man defense.
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Post by gatormcclusky on Jan 19, 2020 18:48:09 GMT -5
I'm confused by this discussion. What adjustments should have been made? Everyone knows what this team was lacking last year, defensive stoppers. coach adressed the issue by bringing in defensive players with size to play against the Howard's of the BE...update: those guys transferred out. yeah, this team's wins have come mainly on great offensive execution, smart play and overall effort (which wasn't quite there Saturday). Howard is a great player and couldn't miss - I feel like there weren't many defensive adjustments that were going to stop him the way he was shooting it, short of going box and one with Mosely faceguarding him everywhere he went.
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on Jan 19, 2020 19:14:45 GMT -5
If anyone is at the game today and can pick up one of the Commemorative Soccer T shirts for Harry, I would be happy to reimburse and cover shipping. Please message me if you can. Thanks.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 19, 2020 19:35:40 GMT -5
I think you are underestimating the times it gets "beat" per game. Getting beat does not just mean either the dribbler or the screener getting to the basket for a chippie. It also means other defenders having to help because the hedge guy does not recover quickly enough, leaving their man open on the perimeter. That happened multiple times yesterday. Yurtseven and particularly Wahab (which is not surprising for a freshman) are actually not that good at recovering which is the key, although Yurt has shown improvement. And spend a few moments on a Syracuse forum and see how many of their fans beg Boeheim to at least throw in some man defense. Actually watch it run and listen to Patrick (or find coaches who know it well) you don't help on the hard hedge as that causes other problems and the Hoyas don't help on it. The big gets beat either when too high, on the wrong side of the guard, or don't have the right line for their two stops to get in position. While they are getting into position on the the opposing big their hands are up and are denying a pass. The Hoya big just needs to be in the line between their guard and big, and the Hoya guard's job is to keep the guard from going too wide. But, the change from the big to in position is around one seconds. I watch this play tightly as the Hoyas sucked the first few games with it, but now mostly nail it. About 4/5ths of the time it leads to the opposing team resetting into another play by passing to another guard or wing up top, who is covered or the corner player coming up to reset. Occasionally the opposing team will push a pass to their big and they try to get a shot and get denied, but most often they kick it out for a reset on the wing. Hoyas usually get a couple turnover each game or more with tems trying to push the ball to the big or the guard driving (Howard isn't going to be that player turning it over). One of the first Big East games this season the other team had four or five turnovers trying to force things against a successful hard hedge. Most of the times when we are getting beat on help plays it isn't hard hegde it is a protecting against a guard driving hard off another guard setting the pick on motion or skip pass and drive and then kick back to where the ball came from as the player that had the did the skip pass had their defender over help or they rotate and the defender loses them trying to shift to the middle on weak side coverage. It isn't hard hedge that the over help gets beat on (not to say it has never happened as there is no never in basketball).
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 19, 2020 20:00:17 GMT -5
I think you are underestimating the times it gets "beat" per game. Getting beat does not just mean either the dribbler or the screener getting to the basket for a chippie. It also means other defenders having to help because the hedge guy does not recover quickly enough, leaving their man open on the perimeter. That happened multiple times yesterday. Yurtseven and particularly Wahab (which is not surprising for a freshman) are actually not that good at recovering which is the key, although Yurt has shown improvement. And spend a few moments on a Syracuse forum and see how many of their fans beg Boeheim to at least throw in some man defense. Actually watch it run and listen to Patrick (or find coaches who know it well) you don't help on the hard hedge as that causes other problems and the Hoyas don't help on it. The big gets beat either when too high, on the wrong side of the guard, or don't have the right line for their two stops to get in position. While they are getting into position on the the opposing big their hands are up and are denying a pass. The Hoya big just needs to be in the line between their guard and big, and the Hoya guard's job is to keep the guard from going too wide. But, the change from the big to in position is around one seconds. I watch this play tightly as the Hoyas sucked the first few games with it, but now mostly nail it. About 4/5ths of the time it leads to the opposing team resetting into another play by passing to another guard or wing up top, who is covered or the corner player coming up to reset. Occasionally the opposing team will push a pass to their big and they try to get a shot and get denied, but most often they kick it out for a reset on the wing. Hoyas usually get a couple turnover each game or more with tems trying to push the ball to the big or the guard driving (Howard isn't going to be that player turning it over). One of the first Big East games this season the other team had four or five turnovers trying to force things against a successful hard hedge. Most of the times when we are getting beat on help plays it isn't hard hegde it is a protecting against a guard driving hard off another guard setting the pick on motion or skip pass and drive and then kick back to where the ball came from as the player that had the did the skip pass had their defender over help or they rotate and the defender loses them trying to shift to the middle on weak side coverage. It isn't hard hedge that the over help gets beat on (not to say it has never happened as there is no never in basketball). You're defending a big part of the team's defensive game plan of a team that's last or close to it in defense in the BE. They're last in scoring defense, last in FG% defense & last in 3pt FG% defense. I get that the staff is working with a very shorthand but to me, it's hard to defend the defense that's being played over the last 6 games.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Jan 19, 2020 20:04:49 GMT -5
Six games? The defense has been atrocious the past three seasons.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 19, 2020 20:52:29 GMT -5
Actually watch it run and listen to Patrick (or find coaches who know it well) you don't help on the hard hedge as that causes other problems and the Hoyas don't help on it. The big gets beat either when too high, on the wrong side of the guard, or don't have the right line for their two stops to get in position. While they are getting into position on the the opposing big their hands are up and are denying a pass. The Hoya big just needs to be in the line between their guard and big, and the Hoya guard's job is to keep the guard from going too wide. But, the change from the big to in position is around one seconds. I watch this play tightly as the Hoyas sucked the first few games with it, but now mostly nail it. About 4/5ths of the time it leads to the opposing team resetting into another play by passing to another guard or wing up top, who is covered or the corner player coming up to reset. Occasionally the opposing team will push a pass to their big and they try to get a shot and get denied, but most often they kick it out for a reset on the wing. Hoyas usually get a couple turnover each game or more with tems trying to push the ball to the big or the guard driving (Howard isn't going to be that player turning it over). One of the first Big East games this season the other team had four or five turnovers trying to force things against a successful hard hedge. Most of the times when we are getting beat on help plays it isn't hard hegde it is a protecting against a guard driving hard off another guard setting the pick on motion or skip pass and drive and then kick back to where the ball came from as the player that had the did the skip pass had their defender over help or they rotate and the defender loses them trying to shift to the middle on weak side coverage. It isn't hard hedge that the over help gets beat on (not to say it has never happened as there is no never in basketball). You're defending a big part of the team's defensive game plan of a team that's last or close to it in defense in the BE. They're last in scoring defense, last in FG% defense & last in 3pt FG% defense. I get that the staff is working with a very shorthand but to me, it's hard to defend the defense that's being played over the last 6 games. Wow, I think you like many others don't know what hard hedge is nor how it is used. It is not a full possession defense, Hoyas mostly use man often with easing up on weakside, but not often. Hard hedge is used on a offensive team setting up a pick and roll and it is a pick and roll defense primarily, when that part of the play is over it is back to other defensive schemes, mostly man. People on the board are freaking out about 4 to 5 seconds of defense that mostly works and are blaming other defense issues on the hard hedge, which the hard hedge portion of the defense is long over and done with. Hard hedge is pick and roll focussed, but can be used in other situations but I haven't seen Georgetown use it that way at all (and that is a good thing). I'm defending the hard hedge not the whole defense. The defense biggest issue is player roles that Hoyas are now short with. Other teams are beating the Hoyas with a lot of movement and shifts to wear down Georgetown players. Hoyas have been doing a great job defending and often the only way to defend tighter means there are going to me more fouls, which isn't really an option with a short bench. Hoyas are a bit stuck and defensive schemes aren't going to really solve it, particularly without having one or two more long athletic wings.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 19, 2020 21:03:33 GMT -5
With hard hedge there is an offensive scheme that can work two to four times a game against it with a soft / fake pick and roll, but I've not seen a college team run it. It takes a good skills and smart team that knows each other well and all players have good basketball IQs. A handful of NBA teams run it (mostly Celtics and Spurs) and quite a few top European team. So far Hoyas get hurt by bigs occasionally not getting the perfection needed to execute. But, the Hoyas get it to work a vast majority of the time.
Also other teams don't seem to be running pick and roll to score based on the reads and reactions, it seems to be run to just put the hurt on and wear down Hoya guards. The hard hedge often softens the picks by the other team's big a they see the open lane, which is a ruse becuse as they dive / roll to get to the lane the Hoya big denies the passing lane and gets in place. It also keeps the Hoya guard in good position to defend the oppositions guard. On some occasions the Hoya big will cover the guard but staying with a wide stance and out stretched arms that deny the gaurd from taking advantage of the big on Hoya guard advantage. As soon as the opposing guard passes the Hoyas reset as the other team shift to their next scheme.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jan 19, 2020 21:20:19 GMT -5
If anyone is at the game today and can pick up one of the Commemorative Soccer T shirts for Harry, I would be happy to reimburse and cover shipping. Please message me if you can. Thanks. Thanks. Was able to get him one last night.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 19, 2020 22:55:48 GMT -5
I could not watch this game live, hence the late commentary. That said, I don't see how anybody could blame the offense (with one caveat, I'll state in a moment). We scored 1.21 points per possession on offense. That's really good.
The difference is that our defensive was putrid in every way, giving up 1.27 points per possession. Yes, Howard torched us. And yes, he's a great player. But, everybody else on their team killed us too. Here are their guys and in-game O efficiency ratings:
Amin: 135 McEwen: 110 Howard: 121 Bailey: 161 John: 142 Johnson: 142
So they had 6 guys that absolutely destroyed us on offense. If this was the type of game where Howard crushed us, but we otherwise did okay, then fine. But that's absolutely not what happened here. The defense, as a whole, was atrocious.
I don't have many complaints on offense, other than this game shows why we cannot continually trade 2's for 3's. They had 64 shot attempts to our 59. So while they took more shots, that's not a big differential. But, we took 18 threes, they took 27. It's a problem.
The other related problem is our guys taking too many long twos, game after game, and it never stops.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 19, 2020 22:58:26 GMT -5
Does anybody else think there should be some type of rule that keeps teams from fouling up 3 at the end of the game? As a fan, I do not want to see that smart but very lame strategy at the end of games. For what it's worth, some analytical studies have examined this closely, and whether you foul or not is really irrelevant long-term, as the results are almost identical. Basically, the team ahead usually wins either way. If you foul in this situation, you actually lose slightly more often (which makes sense because if you're ahead by 3 and don't foul under 30 seconds, you basically cannot lose, but rather tie), than if you just allow the three to be shot. The one exception is short shot clocks, in which case fouling makes a bit more sense.
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Jan 20, 2020 1:28:52 GMT -5
With hard hedge there is an offensive scheme that can work two to four times a game against it with a soft / fake pick and roll, but I've not seen a college team run it. It takes a good skills and smart team that knows each other well and all players have good basketball IQs. A handful of NBA teams run it (mostly Celtics and Spurs) and quite a few top European team. So far Hoyas get hurt by bigs occasionally not getting the perfection needed to execute. But, the Hoyas get it to work a vast majority of the time. Also other teams don't seem to be running pick and roll to score based on the reads and reactions, it seems to be run to just put the hurt on and wear down Hoya guards. The hard hedge often softens the picks by the other team's big a they see the open lane, which is a ruse becuse as they dive / roll to get to the lane the Hoya big denies the passing lane and gets in place. It also keeps the Hoya guard in good position to defend the oppositions guard. On some occasions the Hoya big will cover the guard but staying with a wide stance and out stretched arms that deny the gaurd from taking advantage of the big on Hoya guard advantage. As soon as the opposing guard passes the Hoyas reset as the other team shift to their next scheme. Just going to respond here as I don't want to completely clog the thread. (EDIT: That didn't work, sorry) The Hoyas don't run the hedge successfully 10-20 times a game. It's not successful. The defense isn't always successful even if the shooter misses if he's open and misses you just caught a break. It doesn't mean it was great defense. I haven't kept track of an amount, though Seton Hall and Marquette exploited it just about every single play. It wasn't run too much against Creighton as you have to worry about their shooters and can't rotate, so coach limited it there to success. Howard torched it, Seton Hall game-planned perfectly for it and ran a set which is perfect film on how to beat it. Also, the wings/corner defenders have to help. These guys prevent the big from an easy catch and finish after the screen is set or at least get a hand up while the big is in recovery. The easiest way to beat the hard hedge is to have the big slip the screen. That's how Gill scored most of his points, and that's how SMU (a team we played and beat handily) came back and beat handily. It's most commonly used to stop the big from popping and hitting the three. The hedge defender is in the passing lane to get the ball from the guard to the big in a pop scenario and if the ball gets to the big who's popping, the guard in defense or the big can rotate back and easily contest the shot. That's the main use. If the big is to roll, the guard has an opening either with the big who's open on the roll and has a 2-3 step advantage on his defender (being generous for our team) or has an easy skip pass to the corner. The very first play Marquette ran exploited the skip pass to Anim who if I recall correctly missed his first three then hit his second in the exact same spot off of the exact same play. Marquette had 2 main counters. One was the give Markus Howard half of the floor to operate set off of dribble handoffs which I went in-depth on earlier and the other was this play, leading to a skip pass to either Anim, Bailey or McEwen who were wide open for the shot. That's why the three-point defense is so bad. Len Elmore spoke about this in the Seton Hall game and was ragging Pickett about it, and he had a point. Pickett wasn't effectively rotating because he was worried (rightly so) about a Myles Cale three-pointer. But the hedge requires him to rotate inside and limit the easy passing lane for a second or two while the big recovers. Instead, he's in no man's land trying to defend as no matter what he did, Willard exploited it. He's trying to play mind games and trick the ball handler into making a mistake, but McKnight is a very good facilitator who read him very well and made the right call. He had 10 assists and I think 9 of them were off of the hard hedge. That's probably an embellishment but you get the point. Teams are getting open looks as a result of the hard hedge. The rotations are a part of the pick and roll defense. Pick and roll defense isn't just the two guys involved, it's everybody. Your goal is to stop the habit pass (the guy one pass away from the guard) and make a play. The hard hedge leaves an opening in the habit pass or wide open from the corner. The perimeter rotations on the hard hedge are very important. In a four out one in set, the corner defender would have to rotate inside, the wing defender closest to him would have to rotate to the corner and another defender would have to pick up his guy in the hard hedge, maybe even guarding two people in the process until everyone can fully recover. If all five guys are effective in running the hard hedge, it can work. In our case, the big needs to recover faster, the corner defender needs to rotate in and out faster, the guy guarding the ball handler needs to stay in between the hard hedging big and the screener to get back to his man before he is capable of getting around the big and into the lane. The hard hedge is most effective when there is very good interior help available to guard the roll man so in case he does roll, his shot is made difficult. If the five-man is setting the screen, the four-man needs to be a very good interior defender and not be leaving a shooter open. In most cases, Pickett is leaving good shooters open who can make a play. That's why Myles Cale hitting open looks, or Sacar Anim hitting his shots early on which really threw off our defense. The guys had to worry about their shooter and he opened up space for the big or the guard to make a play. That's why the common theme of "the random shooter always goes off on Georgetown" is a thing. These shooters are being left open by the hedge and their coach trusts them to hit these shots and create havoc for our defense. If the shooter is having an off game, it plays into the Hoyas hand and gives them a clear advantage. I'm linking two videos I just found which explain the hedge pretty well in terms of the NBA and how it's run. There are some differences on our terms such as the big man who sets the screen against us is typically the five-man who isn't a threat to shoot from outside, making the hedge more pointless. I think the hedge works better in spots. For example, if Bailey or in the next game Carter was to set a screen, Pickett could hard hedge leaving better interior defenders in Omer of Qudus to make a play that they could if Carter is to roll/slip. Plus, Pickett would be faster and more capable of completing the hedge successfully. I think Omer and Qudus would be better off soft hedging or dropping and trusting our guards to get around the screen and contest the guards three. If Howard wants to win solely by shooting over our guys, you let him. If Omer in this game would've used a soft hedge, it would've been more capable of getting a hand up on Howard who was getting around the screen when the main worry was him shooting a three. The hedge could've worked in this case though, best explained in the first video I linked on how the Pistons use the hard hedge and the example was Steph Curry at the 4:15 mark. The second video links to how the Rockets beat the hard hedge. Overall, I think the hard hedge is best used in spots when the four-man is setting the screen. The fours in CBB are typically faster and more capable of sitting outside and hitting a three and if they were to roll don't leave us at a real disadvantage inside. The hard hedge on the five-man leaves the Hoyas defense very susceptible to an inside man having a mismatch or a shooter being left open as a result of the three. The four-man is better at recovering and would make this system work, so long as he and the guard make the right reads.
Here's a video I found just before posting this on college coach (now at St. Louis) Travis Ford explaining his hard hedge in an open practice setting. If I made any errors, please excuse me as I'm writing this pretty late and am writing a lot, just trying to get everything down so I don't forget to mention something.
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Jan 20, 2020 8:31:31 GMT -5
I watched the entire game and I was impressed with how much effort the guys played with, but even early in the game it seemed like some of the them might have been tired/sick. I am not sure if that has been reported anywhere or not. It seemed like the guys wanted to make the effort plays but sometimes they just did not respond quick enough, which will happen if guys are sick or tired. Other teams understand the depth issues the Hoyas have and they run stuff all game that makes them work hard in an attempt to take their legs away for the end of the game. Defending that high pick and roll all game requires tremendous effort from a guy the size of Yurt, and you add that to the effort he needs to expend in the post all game on offense and you can understand some of the late struggles. Yurt played a really good game, but he looked out of gas toward the end and some of those shots that he normally makes were just off, as it looked like he had lost some lift in his legs. Mac played hard and attacked all game, but even on TV you could see him coughing and struggling to get his breath at times. I have to believe he is still not completely over his sickness.
These are not excuses, and I am glad Coach Ewing did not use them as excuses, because they are going to have to find a way to make it work with what they have now, but the margin for error is so small for them now. Keep working hard and hopefully they get a few breaks in the next few weeks.
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daveg023
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Post by daveg023 on Jan 20, 2020 8:56:34 GMT -5
Lots of talk on the hard hedge strategy following this game. I don’t think it’s been as bad as last year with Govan, but it certainly has had moments where it’s been exposed.
One thing I have been thinking is I wonder if Ewing has had any conversations with his NBA mentors regarding this or anything else strategy-wise. I know every coach wants to be their own man, but given our assistants don’t strike me as top Xs and Os guys, it would be a positive in my mind if Ewing was tapping into his NBA network as a sounding board.
JVG and SVG have some spare time, let’s get them down here for a practice!
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Jan 20, 2020 9:41:28 GMT -5
Lots of talk on the hard hedge strategy following this game. I don’t think it’s been as bad as last year with Govan, but it certainly has had moments where it’s been exposed. One thing I have been thinking is I wonder if Ewing has had any conversations with his NBA mentors regarding this or anything else strategy-wise. I know every coach wants to be their own man, but given our assistants don’t strike me as top Xs and Os guys, it would be a positive in my mind if Ewing was tapping into his NBA network as a sounding board. JVG and SVG have some spare time, let’s get them down here for a practice! The one strategy thing I would like to see Coach Ewing employ a little more for the rest of the season is the use of some zone defense. Even if it was just as a change of base that he threw out there for a few possessions each half to change the momentum and pace of the games. It would give some of his big guys some rest (not having to chase guys on the high pick and roll every possession) and hopefully protect them from foul trouble. I don't think the Hoyas would be a good zone team if they tried to do it for extended periods because they lack length at the guard position, but sticking to the same man to man defensive principles all game against Marquette and Howard was not working. I realize playing zone against a team with a long distance shooter like Howard can be a problem but I would have liked to see if they could have made it work for a few minutes each half.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 20, 2020 10:46:56 GMT -5
With hard hedge there is an offensive scheme that can work two to four times a game against it with a soft / fake pick and roll, but I've not seen a college team run it. It takes a good skills and smart team that knows each other well and all players have good basketball IQs. A handful of NBA teams run it (mostly Celtics and Spurs) and quite a few top European team. So far Hoyas get hurt by bigs occasionally not getting the perfection needed to execute. But, the Hoyas get it to work a vast majority of the time. Also other teams don't seem to be running pick and roll to score based on the reads and reactions, it seems to be run to just put the hurt on and wear down Hoya guards. The hard hedge often softens the picks by the other team's big a they see the open lane, which is a ruse becuse as they dive / roll to get to the lane the Hoya big denies the passing lane and gets in place. It also keeps the Hoya guard in good position to defend the oppositions guard. On some occasions the Hoya big will cover the guard but staying with a wide stance and out stretched arms that deny the gaurd from taking advantage of the big on Hoya guard advantage. As soon as the opposing guard passes the Hoyas reset as the other team shift to their next scheme. Just going to respond here as I don't want to completely clog the thread. (EDIT: That didn't work, sorry) The Hoyas don't run the hedge successfully 10-20 times a game. It's not successful. The defense isn't always successful even if the shooter misses if he's open and misses you just caught a break. It doesn't mean it was great defense. I haven't kept track of an amount, though Seton Hall and Marquette exploited it just about every single play. It wasn't run too much against Creighton as you have to worry about their shooters and can't rotate, so coach limited it there to success. Howard torched it, Seton Hall game-planned perfectly for it and ran a set which is perfect film on how to beat it. Also, the wings/corner defenders have to help. These guys prevent the big from an easy catch and finish after the screen is set or at least get a hand up while the big is in recovery. The easiest way to beat the hard hedge is to have the big slip the screen. That's how Gill scored most of his points, and that's how SMU (a team we played and beat handily) came back and beat handily. It's most commonly used to stop the big from popping and hitting the three. The hedge defender is in the passing lane to get the ball from the guard to the big in a pop scenario and if the ball gets to the big who's popping, the guard in defense or the big can rotate back and easily contest the shot. That's the main use. If the big is to roll, the guard has an opening either with the big who's open on the roll and has a 2-3 step advantage on his defender (being generous for our team) or has an easy skip pass to the corner. The very first play Marquette ran exploited the skip pass to Anim who if I recall correctly missed his first three then hit his second in the exact same spot off of the exact same play. Marquette had 2 main counters. One was the give Markus Howard half of the floor to operate set off of dribble handoffs which I went in-depth on earlier and the other was this play, leading to a skip pass to either Anim, Bailey or McEwen who were wide open for the shot. That's why the three-point defense is so bad. Len Elmore spoke about this in the Seton Hall game and was ragging Pickett about it, and he had a point. Pickett wasn't effectively rotating because he was worried (rightly so) about a Myles Cale three-pointer. But the hedge requires him to rotate inside and limit the easy passing lane for a second or two while the big recovers. Instead, he's in no man's land trying to defend as no matter what he did, Willard exploited it. He's trying to play mind games and trick the ball handler into making a mistake, but McKnight is a very good facilitator who read him very well and made the right call. He had 10 assists and I think 9 of them were off of the hard hedge. That's probably an embellishment but you get the point. Teams are getting open looks as a result of the hard hedge. The rotations are a part of the pick and roll defense. Pick and roll defense isn't just the two guys involved, it's everybody. Your goal is to stop the habit pass (the guy one pass away from the guard) and make a play. The hard hedge leaves an opening in the habit pass or wide open from the corner. The perimeter rotations on the hard hedge are very important. In a four out one in set, the corner defender would have to rotate inside, the wing defender closest to him would have to rotate to the corner and another defender would have to pick up his guy in the hard hedge, maybe even guarding two people in the process until everyone can fully recover. If all five guys are effective in running the hard hedge, it can work. In our case, the big needs to recover faster, the corner defender needs to rotate in and out faster, the guy guarding the ball handler needs to stay in between the hard hedging big and the screener to get back to his man before he is capable of getting around the big and into the lane. The hard hedge is most effective when there is very good interior help available to guard the roll man so in case he does roll, his shot is made difficult. If the five-man is setting the screen, the four-man needs to be a very good interior defender and not be leaving a shooter open. In most cases, Pickett is leaving good shooters open who can make a play. That's why Myles Cale hitting open looks, or Sacar Anim hitting his shots early on which really threw off our defense. The guys had to worry about their shooter and he opened up space for the big or the guard to make a play. That's why the common theme of "the random shooter always goes off on Georgetown" is a thing. These shooters are being left open by the hedge and their coach trusts them to hit these shots and create havoc for our defense. If the shooter is having an off game, it plays into the Hoyas hand and gives them a clear advantage. I'm linking two videos I just found which explain the hedge pretty well in terms of the NBA and how it's run. There are some differences on our terms such as the big man who sets the screen against us is typically the five-man who isn't a threat to shoot from outside, making the hedge more pointless. I think the hedge works better in spots. For example, if Bailey or in the next game Carter was to set a screen, Pickett could hard hedge leaving better interior defenders in Omer of Qudus to make a play that they could if Carter is to roll/slip. Plus, Pickett would be faster and more capable of completing the hedge successfully. I think Omer and Qudus would be better off soft hedging or dropping and trusting our guards to get around the screen and contest the guards three. If Howard wants to win solely by shooting over our guys, you let him. If Omer in this game would've used a soft hedge, it would've been more capable of getting a hand up on Howard who was getting around the screen when the main worry was him shooting a three. The hedge could've worked in this case though, best explained in the first video I linked on how the Pistons use the hard hedge and the example was Steph Curry at the 4:15 mark. The second video links to how the Rockets beat the hard hedge. Overall, I think the hard hedge is best used in spots when the four-man is setting the screen. The fours in CBB are typically faster and more capable of sitting outside and hitting a three and if they were to roll don't leave us at a real disadvantage inside. The hard hedge on the five-man leaves the Hoyas defense very susceptible to an inside man having a mismatch or a shooter being left open as a result of the three. The four-man is better at recovering and would make this system work, so long as he and the guard make the right reads.
Here's a video I found just before posting this on college coach (now at St. Louis) Travis Ford explaining his hard hedge in an open practice setting. If I made any errors, please excuse me as I'm writing this pretty late and am writing a lot, just trying to get everything down so I don't forget to mention something. I was going to point to the same videos. While the hard hedge is more than just defending the two players in the pick and roll, the other 3 defenders are meant to be covering man and staying home on their man. The videos are really good, but also the same guy in the first video also is the one who breaks down how the Celtics bail on the pick and do a soft roll to beat a hard hedge, which works on a few occasions each game, but mostly because of Kemba's abilities reading and creating that Stephens put in play. The hard hedge isn't the whole possession which most in this board keep trying to say it is, it is. Other rotations are part of the next setup. Marquette beat with Howard because of defensive breakdowns and the hedge not really being run well. But, Howard is hard to stop. Period. Hedge or not. Georgetown used the hard hedge a lot in prior games and didn't get burned much and it stopped the pick and roll as well as the options that were run after them. Most buckets against the Hoyas aren't happening because of the hard hedge as they happen much later in the possession. Also Ewing was one of the NBA coaches who leaned on and coach the use of the hard hedge a lot. Orlando was one of the teams to use it the most. Agreeing with the hard hedge on the four, which Hoyas somewhat lack. Both Yurtseven and Wahab run it well enough with the same success. It takes good players (bigs) to run it, but when defending the pick and roll it is far better than a lot of other options. With other teams running pick and roll heavily to wear a team down there needs to be a good defense for it to stop it and make them beat you another way. Villanova game they abandoned pick and roll early and relied on a hot Bey shooting over tight covering Mosely or getting around Pickett. Hard hedge lead to dead postions for Villanova so Wright shifted away from pick and roll and moved to high screens with guards, where the hard hedge isn't useful and Georgetown didn't run it.
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saxagael
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Post by saxagael on Jan 20, 2020 10:50:34 GMT -5
Lots of talk on the hard hedge strategy following this game. I don’t think it’s been as bad as last year with Govan, but it certainly has had moments where it’s been exposed. One thing I have been thinking is I wonder if Ewing has had any conversations with his NBA mentors regarding this or anything else strategy-wise. I know every coach wants to be their own man, but given our assistants don’t strike me as top Xs and Os guys, it would be a positive in my mind if Ewing was tapping into his NBA network as a sounding board. JVG and SVG have some spare time, let’s get them down here for a practice! The one strategy thing I would like to see Coach Ewing employ a little more for the rest of the season is the use of some zone defense. Even if it was just as a change of base that he threw out there for a few possessions each half to change the momentum and pace of the games. It would give some of his big guys some rest (not having to chase guys on the high pick and roll every possession) and hopefully protect them from foul trouble. I don't think the Hoyas would be a good zone team if they tried to do it for extended periods because they lack length at the guard position, but sticking to the same man to man defensive principles all game against Marquette and Howard was not working. I realize playing zone against a team with a long distance shooter like Howard can be a problem but I would have liked to see if they could have made it work for a few minutes each half. Patrick does run 2-3 a bit, as well as 3-2. He rotates looks. But, Mosely and Pickett, and Allen have been able to run man well enough to use it much of the time. Patrick's preferred defense is a full court pressure / press the whole game. But that takes a good and somewhat deep bench with long athletic players. That vaporized. So we are at plan B.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Jan 20, 2020 11:30:06 GMT -5
Getting back to the Marquette game. I recall seeing Marquette play someone (Nova/Butler?) and every time Howard touched the ball he was double teamed. Might have led to easy baskets but definitely reduced his scoring and you could see frustrated him into taking some terrible shots. I'm pretty sure Marquette lost that game too. I guess we don't have that luxury with limited bench but next time I'd do it anyway. Watching the game at Cap One surrounded by Marquette fans it was just humiliating. Howard could score at will.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Jan 20, 2020 11:39:34 GMT -5
Getting back to the Marquette game. I recall seeing Marquette play someone (Nova/Butler?) and every time Howard touched the ball he was double teamed. Might have led to easy baskets but definitely reduced his scoring and you could see frustrated him into taking some terrible shots. I'm pretty sure Marquette lost that game too. I guess we don't have that luxury with limited bench but next time I'd do it anyway. Watching the game at Cap One surrounded by Marquette fans it was just humiliating. Howard could score at will. I agree with DrQ in trying to double Howard next time we play Quette...it can't be worse....also if we cut their O rebs in half we win the game...too many times when someone other than Howard shot they got 2nd chances off of misses...
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Jan 20, 2020 13:02:02 GMT -5
Just scroll up to see my first post, it's too long and would make this thread almost unreadable if I left it here I was going to point to the same videos. While the hard hedge is more than just defending the two players in the pick and roll, the other 3 defenders are meant to be covering man and staying home on their man. The videos are really good, but also the same guy in the first video also is the one who breaks down how the Celtics bail on the pick and do a soft roll to beat a hard hedge, which works on a few occasions each game, but mostly because of Kemba's abilities reading and creating that Stephens put in play. The hard hedge isn't the whole possession which most in this board keep trying to say it is, it is. Other rotations are part of the next setup. Marquette beat with Howard because of defensive breakdowns and the hedge not really being run well. But, Howard is hard to stop. Period. Hedge or not. Georgetown used the hard hedge a lot in prior games and didn't get burned much and it stopped the pick and roll as well as the options that were run after them. Most buckets against the Hoyas aren't happening because of the hard hedge as they happen much later in the possession. Also Ewing was one of the NBA coaches who leaned on and coach the use of the hard hedge a lot. Orlando was one of the teams to use it the most. Agreeing with the hard hedge on the four, which Hoyas somewhat lack. Both Yurtseven and Wahab run it well enough with the same success. It takes good players (bigs) to run it, but when defending the pick and roll it is far better than a lot of other options. With other teams running pick and roll heavily to wear a team down there needs to be a good defense for it to stop it and make them beat you another way. Villanova game they abandoned pick and roll early and relied on a hot Bey shooting over tight covering Mosely or getting around Pickett. Hard hedge lead to dead postions for Villanova so Wright shifted away from pick and roll and moved to high screens with guards, where the hard hedge isn't useful and Georgetown didn't run it. In the hard hedge, most of the time it requires the guys in the corner to rotate down and help on the big man. The pick and roll coverage is more than the two guys involved. Help side defense is a huge part of the game, especially in pick and roll coverage, no matter how it's defended, but especially in a double/hard hedge scenario. Help has to be ready for if the man rolls/slips and has open space. The video explaining the Pistons offense details this and how Andre Drummond is always in help when the 1-4 screen is run. In our case it's a 1-5 screen and Pickett or Mosely needs to be able to help. The problem here is the bigs in the conference should be able to score over Pickett and Mosely with very good success, causing extra inside help which leads to an open shooter. And in this case, the hard hedge can cause another player to have to rotate onto Mosely/Pickett's man in the corner which leaves another player open, causing the hard hedge to lead to a bunch of scramble rotations. The slip is an easy way to beat the hedge as you have an easy advantage over the hard hedging defender and even if baseline help is ready, the slip man has a huge advantage in a two on one. Howard beat it because we ran the same thing the same way at an excellent player and he's Markus Howard. I would've liked to have seen a full double or a softer hedge where the defender id there just to make Howard give up the ball. Instead, he was able to take 31 relatively open shots. Plus the big man stepping out was doing nothing in stopping Howard as he got around the big super easy every time he wanted to. If he didn't get around the big, it was an easy split. With Theo John not being a threat from outside, why run a hard hedge? The hard hedge is designed to prevent the pick and pop, so when the guy can't pop, it puts you in so many different disadvantages. This Nova roster doesn't run many pick and rolls much and when they do, JRE is a threat to shoot it from outside and it makes sense to hard hedge. This Nova roster runs a pretty simple, yet effective motion offense that doesn't have too many on-ball screen and rolls. In the Xavier game, Tyrique Jones won't shoot a shot from outside the paint. So, why hard hedge with him? He's strong enough to easily score over Mosely and Pickett so using the hard hedge puts you in a gigantic disadvantage if he's the screener. However, the fours in this conference can shoot it and our 4, Pickett, has better recovery speed and has better inside help to make this work. Omer or Wahab can help inside and contest a shot if that's what the four-man decides to do. In the case of Xavier, Jason Carter is an outside threat. Carter, while only shooting 28.6% from three, can still hit that shot and a step in mid-range jumper. He'd be much better at that than he would in a roll situation where he has to go inside against Omer/Qudus. So there it makes total sense to prevent his jump shot. Yurtseven and Wahab aren't quick enough to run it successfully against most Big East bigs. I don't think any Big East 5 is quick enough to run it effectively. Plus, they are putting the rest of the defense at a disadvantage leaving paint protectors who aren't really preventing a shot from a big man from going in. They may make that big man's shot more difficult, but not by enough to where it's effective. Leaving Yurt/Wahab at home would make their recovery much easier and could even prevent a pass inside which is a big problem for this defense without a typical four-man who can defend the paint.
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