DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 14, 2020 20:35:22 GMT -5
I'm proud to be a GU, SFS, grad but wish that we had eschewed the fancy dorms and dining facilities, as well as the celebrity professors, and stuck to the basics. Where are these fancy dorms you're mentioning? Certainly not at Georgetown, whose spartan accomodations are a frequent complaint of Gen-Z-ers on online forums. No one will accuse New South, Harbin, or Darnall as being fancy. At many schools, residence life is a admissions tool. Santa Clara advertises its "University Villas" as "all equipped with gourmet kitchens that feature granite counters, stainless appliances, and cherry cabinets. All of the apartments are fully furnished and the student beds are full-sized. Each townhouse is also equipped with an in-unit washer & dryer." How about Drexel? One article touts dorm living with "stunning views of the Philadelphia skyline, full-size beds, and some duplex units, its residents will have access to a private gym with a golf-course simulation room and a 30-seat screening room." Or try University Village at Syracuse, with fully furnished apartments, an on-site movie theater, and access to a private fitness center. "Each apartment includes high-speed Internet, TV package with HD channels and HBO, and a full-sized washer and dryer," the web site reads. "Your bedrooms and bathrooms are private and your kitchen is fully equipped with modern appliances." Or how about dorm eating at Brown, which advertises " a variety of quality entrees and sides crafted from scratch-made recipes, locally grown produce, quality meats from our in-house Butcher Shop, and Pinterest-worthy desserts from our in-house Bakeshop." (Try selling cheeseburger night at New South to that audience!) A 2013 New Republic article reported that "So many American kids have grown up cocooned in their own bedrooms, often with their own bathroom, that the idea of sharing a tiny room with a stranger seems deeply unpleasant. These singletons are even less keen on trekking down the hallway to the common bathroom (especially now that so many are gender-neutral). College officials estimate that 60 percent of their applicants have never shared a bedroom. So when they commission new student housing, the goal is bigger units, more private bedrooms and a lot more social space. Very few new dorms are being built with common showers, even though it’s the more economical way to go. In the typical dorm suite, one bathroom for every two students is now the standard ratio." Or hear it from the students themselves: "Georgetown freshman dorms are cramped and old. Just about everyone I knew had rodents in their room for an extended period of time freshman year, and the building interiors are gross in general. We even had a facilities worker who had to take medical leave and eventually quit because she became ill due to mold in the buildings." talk.collegeconfidential.com/georgetown-university/1982108-my-advice-as-an-undergrad-do-not-come-to-georgetown.html
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Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 14, 2020 21:15:58 GMT -5
I was in New North, no air conditioning! Bathrooms and showers on each end of the hall.
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Post by reformation on Jan 14, 2020 22:17:48 GMT -5
happyhoya1979 said: When I went to my Ivy League MBA program in the early 1980s after having graduated from SFS, the academic rigor of the SFS program was superior to that of virtually all my Ivy League peers. At SFS I had to take five courses per term all of which required the same workload -20 page research paper, mid-term and final as that of the undergrad classes of my grad school classmates from other institutions. ONLY at Georgetown you had to complete five classes and not four each term. Additionally, SFS had the do or die (no degree if you failed which led to several of my friends transferring to the college) language proficiency examination which no other school had. Only Yale and Columbia College matched the depth of Georgetown's academic demands and some schools were downright embarassing in what they required(Brown, for instance, in that era required only 28 pass-fail classes to graduate).
While this may not be the case today, when I went to Georgetown, it was one of the most demanding places around.
I can confirm the lack of rigor at Brown. I use to give my sister (Class of '82) grief about it. I also believe students could drop a course anytime before the final and not have it reflected on your official transcript.
If you want to really compare academics at different programs you'd have to compare like programs. I had dinner with the parents of my daughter's classmate over the break. They went to Gtwn MSFS and MBA out of Cornell and Penn undergrad. Both thought their undergrad institution was much better than Gtwn. Both you and they are probably right but its kind of irrelevant because the comparisons are for very different programs. . Comparing Wharton undergrad for example to Gtwn undergrad business or even the SFS(Wharton undergrad has some SFS type programs) would make some sense.(I doubt many would say Gtwn is better) From my own observation a lot of Wharton undergrads do joint degrees in things like engineering, statistics etc which would be rare at Gtwn. I know a couple of recent grads from Wharton who did those joint degrees and now respectively run analytics for an NFL team + set the betting odds at a major vegas casino. I'm sure Gtwn has some advantages too and undergrad bus majors doing great things but that is the point of doing real comparisons and making changes where it makes sense to give gtown grads more opportunities like what the kids I cited from Wharton are doing.
As far as Brown comparison goes, I think you'd be surprised to see the shift in students taking hard degrees(Engr/comp sic/stats) at places like Harvard/Brown over the last 5-10 years. Gtown has not seen a similar shift. To make a real comparison you'd have to look at both the distribution of degrees + quality of degree e.g., econ vs econ, math vs math govt vs govt etc. . Assuming that we are ahead of everybody else based on old data is probably not the way to go
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 14, 2020 23:03:01 GMT -5
There is an online data set with degrees awarded in 2017, with some interesting facts--three majors account for a third of degree recipients, while chemistry and foreign languages have literally fallen off the map.
International Relations 241 Finance 240 Government 210 Economics 136 English 101 Science, Technology, & Society 80 Psychology 77 Marketing 75 International Business 69 Management 69 Accounting 67 Political Economy 67 Information Management 63 International Economics 59 Mathematics 49 History 37 Computer Science 35 Biology 34 Sociology 33 Liberal Arts 32 Health Administration 30 Linguistics 29 Neurobiology 29 Biomedical Sciences 28 Biological Sciences 28 Nursing 27 Peace Studies 26 Philosophy 24 Int'l Health 23 Spanish 20 American Studies 19 Art History 18 French 18 Classics 13 Women's Studies 12 Anthropology 12 Biochemistry 11 Physics 10 Theology 10 Music 8 Art Studies 8 Drama & Theater Arts 8 Chinese 6 Chemistry 6 Environmental Biology 6 German 5 Arabic 5 Russian 4 Italian 3 Comparative Literature 2 Japanese 2 Biophysics 2 African-American Studies 1 Humanistic Studies 1 Portuguese 0 Medieval & Renaissance Studies 0
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 14, 2020 23:17:01 GMT -5
You’ve got to be able pay back your student loans. 😉
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Jan 14, 2020 23:34:29 GMT -5
When I went to my Ivy League MBA program in the early 1980s after having graduated from SFS, the academic rigor of the SFS program was superior to that of virtually all my Ivy League peers. At SFS I had to take five courses per term all of which required the same workload -20 page research paper, mid-term and final as that of the undergrad classes of my grad school classmates from other institutions. ONLY at Georgetown you had to complete five classes and not four each term. Additionally, SFS had the do or die (no degree if you failed which led to several of my friends transferring to the college) language proficiency examination which no other school had. Only Yale and Columbia College matched the depth of Georgetown's academic demands and some schools were downright embarassing in what they required(Brown, for instance, in that era required only 28 pass-fail classes to graduate). While this may not be the case today, when I went to Georgetown, it was one of the most demanding places around. And look how you turned out. So, who knows if academic rigor really matters.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Jan 15, 2020 7:59:31 GMT -5
When I went to my Ivy League MBA program in the early 1980s after having graduated from SFS, the academic rigor of the SFS program was superior to that of virtually all my Ivy League peers. At SFS I had to take five courses per term all of which required the same workload -20 page research paper, mid-term and final as that of the undergrad classes of my grad school classmates from other institutions. ONLY at Georgetown you had to complete five classes and not four each term. Additionally, SFS had the do or die (no degree if you failed which led to several of my friends transferring to the college) language proficiency examination which no other school had. Only Yale and Columbia College matched the depth of Georgetown's academic demands and some schools were downright embarassing in what they required(Brown, for instance, in that era required only 28 pass-fail classes to graduate). While this may not be the case today, when I went to Georgetown, it was one of the most demanding places around. And look how you turned out. So, who knows if academic rigor really matters. And what I am most satisfied about is the relatively high moral standard I have maintained (for which I give Georgetown a lot of credit). While I do not think I will be a direct admit to heaven, I anticipate that I will not be spending an inordinate time in purgatory.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Jan 15, 2020 9:01:15 GMT -5
And look how you turned out. So, who knows if academic rigor really matters. And what I am most satisfied about is the relatively high moral standard I have maintained (for which I give Georgetown a lot of credit). While I do not think I will be a direct admit to heaven, I anticipate that I will not be spending an inordinate time in purgatory. Your Trump support calls this moral standard very much into question. And, don’t worry about heaven or purgatory- they don’t exist so you need to max out your time here. It’s all you’ve got.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Jan 15, 2020 10:34:08 GMT -5
I'm proud to be a GU, SFS, grad but wish that we had eschewed the fancy dorms and dining facilities, as well as the celebrity professors, and stuck to the basics. Where are these fancy dorms you're mentioning? Certainly not at Georgetown, whose spartan accomodations are a frequent complaint of Gen-Z-ers on online forums. No one will accuse New South, Harbin, or Darnall as being fancy. At many schools, residence life is a admissions tool. Santa Clara advertises its "University Villas" as "all equipped with gourmet kitchens that feature granite counters, stainless appliances, and cherry cabinets. All of the apartments are fully furnished and the student beds are full-sized. Each townhouse is also equipped with an in-unit washer & dryer." How about Drexel? One article touts dorm living with "stunning views of the Philadelphia skyline, full-size beds, and some duplex units, its residents will have access to a private gym with a golf-course simulation room and a 30-seat screening room." Or try University Village at Syracuse, with fully furnished apartments, an on-site movie theater, and access to a private fitness center. "Each apartment includes high-speed Internet, TV package with HD channels and HBO, and a full-sized washer and dryer," the web site reads. "Your bedrooms and bathrooms are private and your kitchen is fully equipped with modern appliances." Or how about dorm eating at Brown, which advertises " a variety of quality entrees and sides crafted from scratch-made recipes, locally grown produce, quality meats from our in-house Butcher Shop, and Pinterest-worthy desserts from our in-house Bakeshop." (Try selling cheeseburger night at New South to that audience!) A 2013 New Republic article reported that "So many American kids have grown up cocooned in their own bedrooms, often with their own bathroom, that the idea of sharing a tiny room with a stranger seems deeply unpleasant. These singletons are even less keen on trekking down the hallway to the common bathroom (especially now that so many are gender-neutral). College officials estimate that 60 percent of their applicants have never shared a bedroom. So when they commission new student housing, the goal is bigger units, more private bedrooms and a lot more social space. Very few new dorms are being built with common showers, even though it’s the more economical way to go. In the typical dorm suite, one bathroom for every two students is now the standard ratio." Or hear it from the students themselves: "Georgetown freshman dorms are cramped and old. Just about everyone I knew had rodents in their room for an extended period of time freshman year, and the building interiors are gross in general. We even had a facilities worker who had to take medical leave and eventually quit because she became ill due to mold in the buildings." talk.collegeconfidential.com/georgetown-university/1982108-my-advice-as-an-undergrad-do-not-come-to-georgetown.htmlI can only compare from a SFS '68 perspective. Lived in Loyola freshman year. 20 years ago I went back to help a friends child move in. Completely different. Attached bathrooms, cable connection. And you can't compare New South cafeteria back in the 60's to the elaborate "cafe" that is there today. Hey, I agree that compared to our competitors some of our facilities are lacking. But overall the quality of life on campus has improved dramatically. Which brings me to the issue of requiring all students to live on campus. Back in the day, and I bet even today, a few students could get together and find an apartment for a lot less than an on campus room would cost. Also, with a kitchen it was a lot cheaper to cook for yourself than participate in the existing food plan. I keep hearing that today's students want the luxuries that are now common. But I have to wonder how the parents of those students would feel if they knew their kids were getting an "elite" education at $10,000 - $20,000 less than other "elite" schools. Or have we just created a self perpetuating system where the children of rich parents (who already have a leg up due to access the private or upscale public high schools) benefit from the obstacle that high tuition poses to the children of middle class families who also want their children to get an elite education.
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Post by reformation on Jan 15, 2020 10:45:53 GMT -5
Just for comparison #'s per DFW post above re distribution of Georgetown majors versus Harvard:
Gtwn Har Math/Stats 49 185 Chemistry 6 27 Computer Sci 35 139 Romance lang 41 9 Govt& IR 518 129 Econ 195 224 English 101 50(note Har also has a Hist & lit major with 49) Neuro/Bio Sci 96 267 Slavic Languages 4 2 Germanic languages 5 1 Finance 240 0
Interesting info when thinking about comparing schools + allocating resources within schools
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C86
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by C86 on Jan 15, 2020 11:11:06 GMT -5
Can I take this slightly off topic. . . I believe that one thing GU urgently needs to do is revamp its admissions process. GU is not on the common app, unlike almost all of its peers. It requires three SAT subject matter tests, which very few schools require (although very recently they have announced that they will accept three AP scores in lieu of subject matter tests). I understand that the school wants to get a clear picture of the prospective students, but other schools seem to find quality applicants without putting up these hurdles. Moreover, the communication from the school is lousy. Georgetown has an incredible story to tell-- service-driven, internationally focused, in Washington, Catholic. George Washington spoke from Old North, for heaven's sake! Once a student expresses interest in GU, however, the school sends a brochure, and then communication ends. Other schools constantly reach out to prospective students to try to convince them to come (Vandy is a master at that). GU gives the impression that it's doing everybody a favor.
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Post by reformation on Jan 15, 2020 11:11:46 GMT -5
Similar #'s for major concentrations at Brown since others were using that as a comparison--Delta vs gtwn is pretty striking--not saying its bad really but deserves some thought re direction of univ../resources etc. In some ways har + probably Columbia would be better comps but I think interesting info anyway.
Math/Stats 161 Computer Sci 144 Govt 59 Econ 150 English 40 Neuro/Bio Sci 268
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Post by reformation on Jan 15, 2020 12:51:33 GMT -5
Just to finish off with Columbia Columbia Math/Stats 148 Computer Sci 207 Romance lang 38 Govt& IR 205 Econ 296 English 111 Neuro/Bio Sci 219 Hist 97 Art Hist 46
I looked at a couple of others-Stanford obviously had even bigger comp sci and much smaller social science. Columbia is probably most similar to Gtwn but it still has much higher #'s doing "hard degrees". I suspect Penn might also be closer but did not have recent data. On the humanities front several of the other schools had much bigger history enrollments than Gtwn which is interesting because Gtwn has a very well regarded Hist dept. Languauges were generally below Gtwn, some by a lot with closest being Columbia. At most of our peers there has been a very big swing towards mat/science etc. Gtwn has seen the trend a little but not surprising given location/focus and other issues but it is now more of an outlier than 10-20+ years ago. These #'s might even understate the quant trend elsewhere as places like Harvard/Stan/Prin/ even Dart have meaningfully sized quant tracks in Econ/Govt/Psych which Gtwn really does not have.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 15, 2020 13:41:03 GMT -5
I will say there is no shortage of brilliant high school students applying to GU. I am often blown away during interviews.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jan 15, 2020 14:16:22 GMT -5
I will say there is no shortage of brilliant high school students applying to GU. I am often blown away during interviews. Agreed. Some of the acceptances/rejections are baffling but the quality of Candidates remains top level.
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Post by badgerhoya on Jan 15, 2020 14:31:51 GMT -5
I will say there is no shortage of brilliant high school students applying to GU. I am often blown away during interviews. Agreed. Some of the acceptances/rejections are baffling but the quality of Candidates remains top level. Co-sign on this. And just a bit more color on this, making some of the comps on here a little less concerning. In a given year, at least 50% of the students I interview are interested in Government / IR - either as a conduit to a career in politics / policy, or to jump them to a career in law. To a T, beyond the quality of the program, everyone cites GU's location in DC as a primary competitive advantage and a reason it's their "top choice." Put another way, these students want to be near "the room where it happens," which they can't get in RI or Philly, which is why DFW's concern about Hopkins stepping into DC is something that needs to be responded to / watched. As for the fundraising aspect of this, every donor gives because there's a story that resonates with them. I'm sure all of us here can point to something -- but was it something planted by a GU fundraiser, or something that you inherently knew you were interested in? Who's developing those stories now - and more important - are they resonating?
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on Jan 15, 2020 14:44:09 GMT -5
There is an online data set with degrees awarded in 2017, with some interesting facts--three majors account for a third of degree recipients, while chemistry and foreign languages have literally fallen off the map. International Relations 241 Finance 240 Government 210 Economics 136 English 101 Science, Technology, & Society 80 Psychology 77 Marketing 75 International Business 69 Management 69 Accounting 67 Political Economy 67 Information Management 63 International Economics 59 Mathematics 49 History 37 Computer Science 35Biology 34 Sociology 33 Liberal Arts 32 Health Administration 30 Linguistics 29 Neurobiology 29 Biomedical Sciences 28 Biological Sciences 28 Nursing 27 Peace Studies 26 Philosophy 24 Int'l Health 23 Spanish 20 American Studies 19 Art History 18 French 18 Classics 13 Women's Studies 12 Anthropology 12 Biochemistry 11 Physics 10 Theology 10 Music 8 Art Studies 8 Drama & Theater Arts 8 Chinese 6 Chemistry 6 Environmental Biology 6 German 5 Arabic 5 Russian 4 Italian 3 Comparative Literature 2 Japanese 2 Biophysics 2 African-American Studies 1 Humanistic Studies 1 Portuguese 0 Medieval & Renaissance Studies 0 While the computer science number might seem small, the department has grown a lot since I was part of a graduating class of about 6 or 7 computer science majors in 2005. Some of that could have been timing, since I've heard that computer science enrollment dropped after the dot com bubble in 2000. But still, 7 to 35 in fifteen years is pretty decent growth. One area that would seemingly be an easy strategic priority is a business analytics major. Something similar to STIA in SFS but for the MSB students. Given the focus on the business school and the trend towards technology and data, this would seem pretty obvious. I'm involved with hiring of 5-8 full time or intern positions every year from area campuses, and despite my Georgetown bias (and about 50% of the decision makers are Georgetown grads I helped to hire years ago) most of the positions get filled by students from UVA, UMD, VT, and JMU these days because the candidates are just that much stronger due to the coursework they take at those schools.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 15, 2020 15:37:45 GMT -5
Can I take this slightly off topic. . . I believe that one thing GU urgently needs to do is revamp its admissions process. GU is not on the common app, unlike almost all of its peers. It requires three SAT subject matter tests, which very few schools require (although very recently they have announced that they will accept three AP scores in lieu of subject matter tests). I understand that the school wants to get a clear picture of the prospective students, but other schools seem to find quality applicants without putting up these hurdles. Moreover, the communication from the school is lousy. Georgetown has an incredible story to tell-- service-driven, internationally focused, in Washington, Catholic. George Washington spoke from Old North, for heaven's sake! Once a student expresses interest in GU, however, the school sends a brochure, and then communication ends. Other schools constantly reach out to prospective students to try to convince them to come (Vandy is a master at that). GU gives the impression that it's doing everybody a favor. I'm going to disagree. Georgetown admissions is the gold standard in the business and one of the things Geoergetown does very, very well. Georgetown is not a Common App school, to which I support this 110%. What does the Common App bring? Very little. If a school wants lots of applications, sure, but does it bring better applicants? Georgetown could drop its acceptance rate to 7-8% overnight with the Common app, but what it would be getting is thousands of outright rejections; namely, the applicant that is going down the list...George Mason, George Washington, Georgia Tech...and throwing in an extra $35 for Georgetown--no harm, no foul. Well, that's a lot of wasted effort in the process for some kid with a 1000 SAT, would make personal alumni interviews for 40,000 applicants impractical, and becomes more about getting a low acceptance rate than really providing an holistic process to identify a talented class they can build each year. So why do schools do it? At 95% of schools, admissions officers earn their keep by growth. If a college admissions staff increased applications by 10 percent, it must be doing its job well. The Common App involves very little work from a school. By contrast, if application numbers were flat, that's a huge problem at some schools. So when Fordham pushes its numbers to get to 47,865 applicants (over twice that of Georgetown), is Fordham twice as successful? No. Are they getting twice the caliber of applicants? Definitely not. They have to get more and more applications just to fill the class. Why is this? Fordham needs to accept 46% because only one in nine (11%) of the accepted students actually choose to go there. By comparison, nearly half of Georgetown's admits accept its offer, which is nothing short of remarkable in that most are likely also accepted to Duke, Penn, Columbia, etc. and must turn those offers down in the process. Yes, Georgetown has a great story to tell and gets outstanding applicants drawn to the University each year. In the end it's still quality over quantity and the quality is there.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 15, 2020 16:26:53 GMT -5
I had multiple classmates who selected GU over Duke and Penn. I had a classmate who selected GU over multiple Ivies, as the school offered him the best financial package. Hard to believe. He was valedictorian if CAS my year.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 15, 2020 16:49:45 GMT -5
I think Gtown should work to partner with Amazon and establish a math/systems/tech-forward school in Northern Virginia, perhaps in Alexandria. I think Amazon is looking for more pliant institutions, ones willing to take the risk of getting into bed with a company with rather questionable labor practices: Come on, are you seriously arguing that a school that's willing to partner with Saudi Arabia wouldn't consider working with Amazon? Mason and NOVA CC are way better fits for what Amazon is looking to do there (2 year program, skills focus rather than theory, teaching AWS-centric stuff, basically vendor locked education).
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