hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Dec 6, 2019 11:29:42 GMT -5
I keep hearing the word "assault" in the context of the allegations. I think we need to be careful with how we perceive this. I have no legal experience and in my mind when I heard "assault" it immediately brought to mind physical harm being done: a punch, a kick, a push, or something else involving physical contact being made. Then when you take original language that was floating around the internet after this all surfaced, "sexual assault", obviously even more dire scenarios came to mind. Since then, "sexual" and "assault" have been separated (harm already done unfortunately), and now we hear "sexual harassment" and "assault" alone. After looking into it a tiny bit it seems in DC "assault" can involve a threat of force alone, with no physical contact. From what I've read it seems like the assault in this case might refer to the alleged threat that was made. Clearly threats are serious and can be a criminal matter but I'm guessing that the nuance of the way "assault" is used in this matter is lost on many people, and that most casual readers will think the accusation involve players beating the accusers in some way, when it doesn't actually seem to. The situation is serious, and if proven there should be consequences. But I think when we discuss and think about the allegations it is important to keep the actual definition of "assault" in mind. THANK YOU! You nailed it CenterCourt400s. I've been trying to get these same points across via multiple threads. I think we can all agree that we love the Hoyas, which is why we care and spend time on this board. However, if we're seriously debating the legal definition of "assault" related to currrent and former Hoyas basketball players, it's pretty obvious that something has gone very, very wrong.
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Post by gatormcclusky on Dec 6, 2019 11:46:26 GMT -5
there are only allegations that these guys did anything wrong - there have been no arrests and no charges. According to the lawyers I've seen talking about this stuff online (and as we all know, the internet is never wrong), temporary restraining orders are generally granted with very little determination in these cases because the court wants to err on the side of caution and protecting the claimant from any potential harm.
then take into account that FERPA federal law is extremely restrictive on what a university can and cannot divulge about its students, so any public statements are going to have to be very limited.
if the allegations are proven to be true and charges are filed, then of course there should be some significant punishments coming down, but at this point I don't think the situation has been mishandled. Sure, they could have suspended all the players immediately from the point the allegations were made all the way until the legal process is complete, but I think that's setting a terrible precedent for the burden of proof in these cases.
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Post by strummer8526 on Dec 6, 2019 12:58:51 GMT -5
THANK YOU! You nailed it CenterCourt400s. I've been trying to get these same points across via multiple threads. I think we can all agree that we love the Hoyas, which is why we care and spend time on this board. However, if we're seriously debating the legal definition of "assault" related to currrent and former Hoyas basketball players, it's pretty obvious that something has gone very, very wrong. It’s not obvious at all. If we’re talking about the appropriate way to respond to allegations, I can’t think of anything more important than defining what the allegations are. There’s nothing wrong—much less very, very wrong—with expecting clarity about what the players are accused of doing.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Dec 6, 2019 16:30:06 GMT -5
I think we can all agree that we love the Hoyas, which is why we care and spend time on this board. However, if we're seriously debating the legal definition of "assault" related to currrent and former Hoyas basketball players, it's pretty obvious that something has gone very, very wrong. I think the opposite may be true - it shows that something has gone right. Patrick and the school shouldn’t punish kids absent compelling evidence of some offense. Doing so would trigger a whole different set of issues. But, under the scenario being described, Coach would have gotten rid of the real offender without exposing anything or damaging reputations, he would have reason to keep an eye on the other two alleged but relatively minor miscreants, but no more unless and unt the allegations are proven and he would have kept the team otherwise intact. The team would have rallied together to steal a great road win, all in like 3 days. We all knew Josh was in the doghouse. Seems quite clear that his head was not in the right place. Coach has now dealt with it and players have shown the ability to rise above and even thrive. James seems to have taken what I would call the wrong side.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Dec 6, 2019 16:40:36 GMT -5
Okay, let's all be perfectly honest and ask ourselves if we would be as "understanding" if this mess was occurring at Syracuse, UCONN or some football powerhouse. In my mind we would be saying that, at the least, the players named in the TRO should be suspended until the matter is resolved.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 6, 2019 16:54:51 GMT -5
To be perfectly honest? When an initial determination is made that criminal charges are appropriate, then it is time to do something.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Dec 6, 2019 18:21:18 GMT -5
Okay, let's all be perfectly honest and ask ourselves if we would be as "understanding" if this mess was occurring at Syracuse, UCONN or some football powerhouse. In my mind we would be saying that, at the least, the players named in the TRO should be suspended until the matter is resolved. You are absolutely right and we would be absolutely wrong in feeling that way. Due process has to retain some meaning in this whole situation. A system where punishment is handed out prior to an investigation being completed would be grossly unfair. It should not be too much to expect from the fans and the school that the process be allowed to play out. Its now been a couple of months and to my knowledge we have TROs, civil complaints and an investigation ongoing and 2 of the 3 accused players still on the team, with the 3rd player having left the program for unspecified reasons. If there are facts other than those, I apologize. Until there are more facts, I am going to try like hell to withhold judgment--and I acknowledge that it is difficult when the accusations are this serious.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Dec 6, 2019 18:35:16 GMT -5
Possibly repetitive, but I don't buy that Patrick sat Josh LeBlanc for a game for "basketball reasons." Yes, I understand the responses--we don't know, we'll never really know, etc. Call it circumstantial evidence if you wish, but the spectre of unequal discipline/change in discipline is there.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Dec 6, 2019 18:39:28 GMT -5
Okay, let's all be perfectly honest and ask ourselves if we would be as "understanding" if this mess was occurring at Syracuse, UCONN or some football powerhouse. In my mind we would be saying that, at the least, the players named in the TRO should be suspended until the matter is resolved. You are absolutely right and we would be absolutely wrong in feeling that way. Due process has to retain some meaning in this whole situation. A system where punishment is handed out prior to an investigation being completed would be grossly unfair. It should not be too much to expect from the fans and the school that the process be allowed to play out. Its now been a couple of months and to my knowledge we have TROs, civil complaints and an investigation ongoing and 2 of the 3 accused players still on the team, with the 3rd player having left the program for unspecified reasons. If there are facts other than those, I apologize. Until there are more facts, I am going to try like hell to withhold judgment--and I acknowledge that it is difficult when the accusations are this serious. I'm not saying kick them off the team. All I'm saying is that the players should be suspended until we can clearly determine whether they committed the acts alleged in the TRO. We'd be screaming bloody murder if next weekend Syracuse suited up players accused of what our players are accused of. Hey, I want to see our Bball program turn around. But how will we feel if these guys suit up, play the next 2-3 games all of which we win, and then we find that they are guilty of what the women claim in the TRO.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 6, 2019 18:55:23 GMT -5
Here's how Texas Tech handled a similar situation very recently, not trying to say suspending is the right way to go in anyway just giving a different account... bleacherreport.com/articles/2842779-texas-tech-suspends-forward-deshawn-corprew-after-assault-allegationsTexas Tech has suspended basketball player Deshawn Corprew after allegations of assault, according to Scott Phillips of NBC Sports.
"Once Coach Beard was made aware of Title IX allegations against Deshawn Corprew, the men’s basketball student-athlete was immediately suspended from all team activities, pending a full investigation. Further comment will be withheld until the appropriate time," the school said in a statement Monday.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Dec 6, 2019 19:27:42 GMT -5
Here's how Texas Tech handled a similar situation very recently, not trying to say suspending is the right way to go in anyway just giving a different account... bleacherreport.com/articles/2842779-texas-tech-suspends-forward-deshawn-corprew-after-assault-allegationsTexas Tech has suspended basketball player Deshawn Corprew after allegations of assault, according to Scott Phillips of NBC Sports.
"Once Coach Beard was made aware of Title IX allegations against Deshawn Corprew, the men’s basketball student-athlete was immediately suspended from all team activities, pending a full investigation. Further comment will be withheld until the appropriate time," the school said in a statement Monday.Exactly.
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Post by centercourt400s on Dec 6, 2019 19:44:51 GMT -5
Here's how Texas Tech handled a similar situation very recently, not trying to say suspending is the right way to go in anyway just giving a different account... bleacherreport.com/articles/2842779-texas-tech-suspends-forward-deshawn-corprew-after-assault-allegationsTexas Tech has suspended basketball player Deshawn Corprew after allegations of assault, according to Scott Phillips of NBC Sports.
"Once Coach Beard was made aware of Title IX allegations against Deshawn Corprew, the men’s basketball student-athlete was immediately suspended from all team activities, pending a full investigation. Further comment will be withheld until the appropriate time," the school said in a statement Monday.Exactly. The linked article actually says "Little information is currently known about Corprew's allegations". For all we know he could have beaten someone unconscious without provocation. Not saying that happened but since we don't know and presumably the staff at Texas Tech does know, the punishment could be commensurate with the seriousness of the act and the likelihood of his guilt. Again, we don't know. Unless the actual circumstances of both situations are known, making the comparison is next to useless.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 6, 2019 19:55:29 GMT -5
The linked article actually says "Little information is currently known about Corprew's allegations". For all we know he could have beaten someone unconscious without provocation. Not saying that happened but since we don't know and presumably the staff at Texas Tech does know, the punishment could be commensurate with the seriousness of the act and the likelihood of his guilt. Again, we don't know. Unless the actual circumstances of both situations are known, making the comparison is next to useless. Again, I'm just playing devil advocate here... If the allegations were what you described they wouldn't be calling it a Title IX complaint, this is a term the NCAA uses... This reads like the complaint was lodged with Texas Tech not the police...
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Post by centercourt400s on Dec 6, 2019 20:12:40 GMT -5
The linked article actually says "Little information is currently known about Corprew's allegations". For all we know he could have beaten someone unconscious without provocation. Not saying that happened but since we don't know and presumably the staff at Texas Tech does know, the punishment could be commensurate with the seriousness of the act and the likelihood of his guilt. Again, we don't know. Unless the actual circumstances of both situations are known, making the comparison is next to useless. Again, I'm just playing devil advocate here... If the allegations were what you described they wouldn't be calling it a Title IX complaint, this is a term the NCAA uses... This reads like the complaint was lodged with Texas Tech not the police... Ok but Title IX deals with sexual based harassment, discrimination and sexual violence. All bad but also very different. The first two get you fired/sued/suspended, etc. The third gets you in jail. Without underlying details there isn't a valid comparison to Georgetown's situation.
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iowa80
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Post by iowa80 on Dec 6, 2019 20:31:56 GMT -5
Does the word "suspension" connote a form of "official" disciplinary action? What if Coach Ewing simply sat the two players within his discretion as he did with Josh and the "S" word wasn't used?
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 6, 2019 20:36:07 GMT -5
Again, I'm just playing devil advocate here... If the allegations were what you described they wouldn't be calling it a Title IX complaint, this is a term the NCAA uses... This reads like the complaint was lodged with Texas Tech not the police... Ok but Title IX deals with sexual based harassment, discrimination and sexual violence. All bad but also very different. The first two get you fired/sued/suspended, etc. The third gets you in jail. Without underlying details there isn't a valid comparison to Georgetown's situation. True but in the few articles I've read on this case none of them mentioned any police involvement and Corprew isn't in jail or had any charges filed against him... The two cases look similar to me...
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 6, 2019 21:32:47 GMT -5
Okay, let's all be perfectly honest and ask ourselves if we would be as "understanding" if this mess was occurring at Syracuse, UCONN or some football powerhouse. In my mind we would be saying that, at the least, the players named in the TRO should be suspended until the matter is resolved. OKay, Mike NiFong.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Dec 6, 2019 21:44:29 GMT -5
I keep hearing the word "assault" in the context of the allegations. I think we need to be careful with how we perceive this. I have no legal experience and in my mind when I heard "assault" it immediately brought to mind physical harm being done: a punch, a kick, a push, or something else involving physical contact being made. Then when you take original language that was floating around the internet after this all surfaced, "sexual assault", obviously even more dire scenarios came to mind. Since then, "sexual" and "assault" have been separated (harm already done unfortunately), and now we hear "sexual harassment" and "assault" alone. After looking into it a tiny bit it seems in DC "assault" can involve a threat of force alone, with no physical contact. From what I've read it seems like the assault in this case might refer to the alleged threat that was made. Clearly threats are serious and can be a criminal matter but I'm guessing that the nuance of the way "assault" is used in this matter is lost on many people, and that most casual readers will think the accusation involve players beating the accusers in some way, when it doesn't actually seem to. The situation is serious, and if proven there should be consequences. But I think when we discuss and think about the allegations it is important to keep the actual definition of "assault" in mind. THANK YOU! You nailed it CenterCourt400s. I've been trying to get these same points across via multiple threads. If I remember my torts correctly, assault is the threat, and battery is the actual physical contact.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Dec 6, 2019 21:53:19 GMT -5
Okay, let's all be perfectly honest and ask ourselves if we would be as "understanding" if this mess was occurring at Syracuse, UCONN or some football powerhouse. In my mind we would be saying that, at the least, the players named in the TRO should be suspended until the matter is resolved. OKay, Mike NiFong. ?
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on Dec 7, 2019 0:38:14 GMT -5
The linked article actually says "Little information is currently known about Corprew's allegations". For all we know he could have beaten someone unconscious without provocation. Not saying that happened but since we don't know and presumably the staff at Texas Tech does know, the punishment could be commensurate with the seriousness of the act and the likelihood of his guilt. Again, we don't know. Unless the actual circumstances of both situations are known, making the comparison is next to useless. Again, I'm just playing devil advocate here... If the allegations were what you described they wouldn't be calling it a Title IX complaint, this is a term the NCAA uses... This reads like the complaint was lodged with Texas Tech not the police... I don’t know much about the TTU situation, but just reading the article you linked makes it sound more like the Walker/Sodom situations.
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