RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on May 3, 2023 20:14:58 GMT -5
For one, not a lot of Gtwn kids apply to non-law/bus grad programs. Gtwn's track record on getting the few that do apply to grad programs into top places is also probably a bit weaker than schools you would think of as peers. This is simply not true. You're welcome to look at the data yourself: careercenter.georgetown.edu/about-us/senior-survey-outcomes/
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Post by reformation on May 4, 2023 11:06:23 GMT -5
It Is true --you'd have to look at this data (which Gtwn does a pretty good job of compiling) and compare to other schools. Most other schools also have similar data. I am also making a judgment re the relative quality and volume of the Gtwn grad school admits vs other schools.
Does Gtwn have grads that get into good grad non-bus law etc)--sure. Is Gtwn somewhat underrepresented in this population vs other elite undergrad places--yes. I think if you asked the top admin at Gtwn and the faculty they would agree with what I am saying. It's probably debatable how impt this underrepresentation is, however; it's one of the factors that I think academics would use in judging the academic quality of other institutions.
Georgetown is way overrepresented vs other top schools re Investment Banking e.g., and that's probably a good thing for our grads at some level. The underrepresentation on the grad school thing hurts us in these types of surveys vs schools that one might think Gtwn is on par better than academically.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on May 4, 2023 11:42:24 GMT -5
It Is true --you'd have to look at this data (which Gtwn does a pretty good job of compiling) and compare to other schools. Most other schools also have similar data. I am also making a judgment re the relative quality and volume of the Gtwn grad school admits vs other schools. Does Gtwn have grads that get into good grad non-bus law etc)--sure. Is Gtwn somewhat underrepresented in this population vs other elite undergrad places--yes. I think if you asked the top admin at Gtwn and the faculty they would agree with what I am saying. It's probably debatable how impt this underrepresentation is, however; it's one of the factors that I think academics would use in judging the academic quality of other institutions. Georgetown is way overrepresented vs other top schools re Investment Banking e.g., and that's probably a good thing for our grads at some level. The underrepresentation on the grad school thing hurts us in these types of surveys vs schools that one might think Gtwn is on par better than academically. It's been a little over 10 years at this point, but I did spent 4.5 years working for the University, 3.5 of those for a graduate program. I was in plenty of meetings with "the top admin at Gtwn and the faculty" - Tim Barbari and Gerry Mara as the Grad School deans, Carol Lancaster and Jim Reardon-Anderson as SFS deans, Bob Groves as Provost, various faculty leads, etc. - where this topic was dicussed. There was absolutely no sense, much less a consensus, that "the relative quality and volume of the Gtwn grad school admits vs other schools" was inferior. Those meetings included benchmarking data of the sort you're talking about, copiously put together by a combination of student employees, highly underpaid staff, and the occasional report purchased from CEB or The Advisory Board or the like. The LOE to pull it together is extensive - but worth it, if you're serious about measuring yourself against others in the field.
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Post by reformation on May 4, 2023 12:09:51 GMT -5
Russky, just as a follow on I took a look randomly at Williams vs Gtwn for one major-Physics(I chose this because I am helping out a friend of mine's kid who is doing Physics at Willaims and was curious what most of their grads do) Willams and Gtwn probably have comparable depts in Physics-maybe Gtwn is a bit better. However, one would notice looking at grad outcomes both that Gtwn has very few Physics grads compared to Williams(not even adjusting for size) and less interesting grad school outcomes. Williams had consistently sent a couple of kids to Harvard and Stanford for grad programs over several years and also sent kids to Oxford/Cambridge etc. Gtwn sent a kid to Penn Phd which is certainly good but certainly I might expect more tbh. Williams Physics also sent kids to advanced math programs and history of science at Oxford. They also had people do trading and consulting like Gtwn.
I'd bet if you surveyed people at Stanford or Harvard Physics who has a better academic program Williams vs Gtwn they'd probably say Williams based on the fact that they don't see Gtwn grads--neither place does the volume of research to make on its own to make a difference. Conversely if you surveyed people at Goldman Sachs which is a more impt place to recruit from Gtwn Vs Williams--they'll almost certainly say Gtwn. I'd bet I could do a similar analysis at many schools/majors and get similar results-places that you'd think Gtwn is comparable to academically like Hopkins Northwestern etc. I actually don't think Gtwn is inferior to these places academically in many regards(though depends how heavily one weights Georgetown's non presence in certain disciplines), however, the lower volume of Gtwn kids taking a grad school route and also doing what are considered hard majors definitely has a negative impact on Gtwn's reputation among other academics.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on May 4, 2023 14:11:23 GMT -5
A lot this has to do with what Georgetown is looking for in recruiting its students. I was an alumni interviewer for over 20 years and as a new interviewer, I remember some 20 years past the Chairman of our local committee addressing all the newly admitted students who were deciding whether they would attend Georgetown at the May 1 reply date. He was asked the question, why did Georgetown reject a majority of the class valedictorians who applied and was Georgetown not fulfilling the mission of being a top academic school by doing so. His response was enlightening. He said that if your goal was to be an accounting major and be the highest scorer on the CPA exam, you could certainly do that at Georgetown as well as anywhere else, but that Georgetown wanted to train the leader in the profession who would be the National President of the AICPA or AGA; if you were a prospective doctor, Georgetown would want you want you to become not only be a fine physician, but be the President of the State Medical Association or lead your discipline's accrediting body or the board of the research hospital; if you were an aspiring diplomat, Georgetown wanted the future Ambassador. In short, we wanted the best leaders and not necessarily the most brilliant students/practitioners. He said that if the latter was your goal that there were other more strictly academic places that might be a better fit given what Georgetown perceives its mission to be. Georgetown wants, and I paraphrase, the person who would not curl up with his books for 60 hours a week but who may curl up with the books for maybe 45 hours and run track, debate or honcho the wine tasting society as well. Georgetown wanted to train the person who affects the welfare of others and not only the academic discipline. Georgetown has a dual mission as both a leadership academy and an academic institution.
Being over 30 plus years from graduation and seeing the careers of my contemporaries and drawing on the perspective of my encounters with alumni from many schools including all our academic peers at both a top Graduate school and in senior managements of many public and non-public institutions, I have found a very lot of evidence to support the point the local chairman made that evening. In my personal opinion Georgetown should keep with its broader mission of developing men and women for others and not primarily and narrowly the highest level academic achievers.
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Post by LizziebethHoya on May 4, 2023 14:20:03 GMT -5
Russky, just as a follow on I took a look randomly at Williams vs Gtwn for one major-Physics(I chose this because I am helping out a friend of mine's kid who is doing Physics at Willaims and was curious what most of their grads do) Willams and Gtwn probably have comparable depts in Physics-maybe Gtwn is a bit better. However, one would notice looking at grad outcomes both that Gtwn has very few Physics grads compared to Williams(not even adjusting for size) and less interesting grad school outcomes. Williams had consistently sent a couple of kids to Harvard and Stanford for grad programs over several years and also sent kids to Oxford/Cambridge etc. Gtwn sent a kid to Penn Phd which is certainly good but certainly I might expect more tbh. Williams Physics also sent kids to advanced math programs and history of science at Oxford. They also had people do trading and consulting like Gtwn. I'd bet if you surveyed people at Stanford or Harvard Physics who has a better academic program Williams vs Gtwn they'd probably say Williams based on the fact that they don't see Gtwn grads--neither place does the volume of research to make on its own to make a difference. Conversely if you surveyed people at Goldman Sachs which is a more impt place to recruit from Gtwn Vs Williams--they'll almost certainly say Gtwn. I'd bet I could do a similar analysis at many schools/majors and get similar results-places that you'd think Gtwn is comparable to academically like Hopkins Northwestern etc. I actually don't think Gtwn is inferior to these places academically in many regards(though depends how heavily one weights Georgetown's non presence in certain disciplines), however, the lower volume of Gtwn kids taking a grad school route and also doing what are considered hard majors definitely has a negative impact on Gtwn's reputation among other academics. This actually got me curious. Physics is a very small program at Georgetown, and it says it graduates 10-20 people a year. In 2018 (picked random year), 4 self-reported that they were going to grad school: Cornell University Doctorate Physics University of Cambridge Doctorate Psychiatry University of Cambridge Masters Energy Technologies Yale University Doctorate Physics And 4 self-reported they were going to work: Archetype Solutions Group Management Consulting Analyst Georgetown University Higher Education Laboratory Assistant McKinsey & Company Management Consulting Business Analyst U.S. Navy Officer I don't see any red flags here. Seems like amazing educational and employment outcomes.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on May 4, 2023 15:39:22 GMT -5
A lot this has to do with what Georgetown is looking for in recruiting its students. I was an alumni interviewer for over 20 years and as a new interviewer, I remember some 20 years past the Chairman of our local committee addressing all the newly admitted students who were deciding whether they would attend Georgetown at the May 1 reply date. He was asked the question, why did Georgetown reject a majority of the class valedictorians who applied and was Georgetown not fulfilling the mission of being a top academic school. His response was enlightening. He said that if your goal was to be an accounting major and be the highest scorer on the CPA exam, you could certainly do that at Georgetown as well as anywhere else, but that Georgetown wanted to train the leader in the profession who would be the National President of the AICPA or AGA; if you were a prospective doctor, Georgetown would want you want you to become not only be a fine physician, but be the President of the State Medical Association or lead your discipline's accrediting body or the board of the research hospital; if you were an aspiring diplomat, Georgetown wanted the future Ambassador. In short, we wanted the best leaders and not necessarily the most brilliant students/practitioners. He said that if the latter was your goal that there were other more strictly academic places that might be a better fit given what Georgetown perceives its mission to be. Georgetown wants, and I paraphrase the person who would not curl up with his books for 60 hours a week but who may curl up with the books for maybe 45 hours and run track, debate or honcho the wine tasting society as well. Georgetown wanted to train the person who affects the welfare of others and not only the academic discipline, Being over 30 plus years from graduation and seeing the careers of my contemporaries and drawing on the perspective of my encounters with alumni from many schools including all our academic peers at both a top Graduate school and in senior managements of many public and non-public institutions, I have found a very lot of evidence to support the point the local chairman made that evening. In my personal opinion Georgetown should keep with its broader mission of developing men and women for others and not primarily and narrowly the highest level academic achievers. If we went on raw academic prowess alone, we would never achieve the diversity we are looking for.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 4, 2023 16:48:11 GMT -5
If we went on raw academic prowess alone, we would never achieve the diversity we are looking for. What exactly is "the diversity we are looking for"?
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on May 4, 2023 18:07:54 GMT -5
Russky, just as a follow on I took a look randomly at Williams vs Gtwn for one major-Physics(I chose this because I am helping out a friend of mine's kid who is doing Physics at Willaims and was curious what most of their grads do) Willams and Gtwn probably have comparable depts in Physics-maybe Gtwn is a bit better. However, one would notice looking at grad outcomes both that Gtwn has very few Physics grads compared to Williams(not even adjusting for size) and less interesting grad school outcomes. physics.williams.edu/ "We graduate an average of 18 physics or astrophysics majors each year."This actually got me curious. Physics is a very small program at Georgetown, and it says it graduates 10-20 people a year. Come on, man.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on May 4, 2023 22:17:00 GMT -5
If we went on raw academic prowess alone, we would never achieve the diversity we are looking for. What exactly is "the diversity we are looking for"? It’s a sensitive topic. It’s safe to say we’d have a higher percentage of Asian students.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on May 5, 2023 8:29:56 GMT -5
What exactly is "the diversity we are looking for"? It’s a sensitive topic. It’s safe to say we’d have a higher percentage of Asian students. Most recent Common Data Set has undergraduate Asian cohort at 14.3%, which is about double the US population proportion. This is not counting the many international students from Asian countries, most of whom belong to an Asian ethnic group. So I'm not sure why "the diversity we are looking for" would entail becoming less representative of the population as a whole?
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on May 5, 2023 13:39:53 GMT -5
It’s a sensitive topic. It’s safe to say we’d have a higher percentage of Asian students. Most recent Common Data Set has undergraduate Asian cohort at 14.3%, which is about double the US population proportion. This is not counting the many international students from Asian countries, most of whom belong to an Asian ethnic group. So I'm not sure why "the diversity we are looking for" would entail becoming less representative of the population as a whole? The percentage would more than double.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on May 5, 2023 14:29:24 GMT -5
A lot this has to do with what Georgetown is looking for in recruiting its students. I was an alumni interviewer for over 20 years and as a new interviewer, I remember some 20 years past the Chairman of our local committee addressing all the newly admitted students who were deciding whether they would attend Georgetown at the May 1 reply date. He was asked the question, why did Georgetown reject a majority of the class valedictorians who applied and was Georgetown not fulfilling the mission of being a top academic school by doing so. His response was enlightening. He said that if your goal was to be an accounting major and be the highest scorer on the CPA exam, you could certainly do that at Georgetown as well as anywhere else, but that Georgetown wanted to train the leader in the profession who would be the National President of the AICPA or AGA; if you were a prospective doctor, Georgetown would want you want you to become not only be a fine physician, but be the President of the State Medical Association or lead your discipline's accrediting body or the board of the research hospital; if you were an aspiring diplomat, Georgetown wanted the future Ambassador. In short, we wanted the best leaders and not necessarily the most brilliant students/practitioners. He said that if the latter was your goal that there were other more strictly academic places that might be a better fit given what Georgetown perceives its mission to be. Georgetown wants, and I paraphrase, the person who would not curl up with his books for 60 hours a week but who may curl up with the books for maybe 45 hours and run track, debate or honcho the wine tasting society as well. Georgetown wanted to train the person who affects the welfare of others and not only the academic discipline. Georgetown has a dual mission as both a leadership academy and an academic institution. Being over 30 plus years from graduation and seeing the careers of my contemporaries and drawing on the perspective of my encounters with alumni from many schools including all our academic peers at both a top Graduate school and in senior managements of many public and non-public institutions, I have found a very lot of evidence to support the point the local chairman made that evening. In my personal opinion Georgetown should keep with its broader mission of developing men and women for others and not primarily and narrowly the highest level academic achievers. At most high schools, a kid who fit either of those profiles would be valedictorian. In other words, I really have a hard time believing that the admissions department can parse between which 4.0/1500 kid is going to be a total bookworm and which is a community leader, or whatever, and is strategically declining valedictorians for that reason. It seems like a nice story to tell ourselves, but come on.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on May 5, 2023 14:48:28 GMT -5
Does GU use admissions algorithms? Consultants? Asking for a friend…
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on May 5, 2023 18:04:19 GMT -5
Most recent Common Data Set has undergraduate Asian cohort at 14.3%, which is about double the US population proportion. This is not counting the many international students from Asian countries, most of whom belong to an Asian ethnic group. So I'm not sure why "the diversity we are looking for" would entail becoming less representative of the population as a whole? The percentage would more than double. You're burying the lede here. Who is it, in your view, whose idea of "the diversity we are looking for" entails having a student body that is 29% Asian-American, four times the proportion of the overall population?
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on May 5, 2023 18:26:02 GMT -5
The percentage would more than double. You're burying the lede here. Who is it, in your view, whose idea of "the diversity we are looking for" entails having a student body that is 29% Asian-American, four times the proportion of the overall population? I think he’s saying that, if we went by academic profile alone, we’d have double the number of Asian students which is not the type of diversity we want. I don’t know if that’s true but that’s how I read it.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on May 5, 2023 18:57:49 GMT -5
You're burying the lede here. Who is it, in your view, whose idea of "the diversity we are looking for" entails having a student body that is 29% Asian-American, four times the proportion of the overall population? I think he’s saying that, if we went by academic profile alone, we’d have double the number of Asian students which is not the type of diversity we want. I don’t know if that’s true but that’s how I read it. This is very odd wording. "The diversity we're looking for" is 2x Asian-American overrepresentation relative to population, as opposed to 4x? Anyway, while the issue of how Asian-Americans are treated in college admissions is indeed a "sensitive" one, it is also a badly misunderstood one. Using generalized average SAT scores and the like is not indicative of deliberate anti-Asian bias or any of the similar claims that have been made.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on May 6, 2023 0:06:52 GMT -5
15% of California’s population is Asian-American, yet around a third of UC Berkeley and UCLA undergraduates are Asian-American.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on May 6, 2023 11:04:06 GMT -5
15% of California’s population is Asian-American, yet around a third of UC Berkeley and UCLA undergraduates are Asian-American. And in California, 'many are saying' (gotta give that phrase the Trump scare quotes) the exact same thing: the system is biased against Asians, they should be even more heavily overrepresented! To whit: California, of course, has famously banned affirmative action in college admissions, so this cannot be laid at the feet of "the diversity we want" (which is starting to feel an awful lot like code for 'those unqualified Black and brown kids taking spots that are rightfully ours').
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on May 11, 2023 16:54:37 GMT -5
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