RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,598
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Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 21, 2018 21:17:19 GMT -5
Even with scholarships, a Patriot League experience can be a pretty hard sell. Not many dream of Easton, PA or Worcester, MA as their home for four years. Outside of their respective regions, many employers don't even recognize the schools. National-level football exposure and glory is almost certainly out of grasp. And even with the many allowances players are given, the Patriot League conceit of being academics-first means that you actually have to, like, go to class and write papers and junk. There's no shortage of schools, even at the FCS level, where you can get away with avoiding all that. I would not agree with this. Not many dream of South Orange, NJ or Hillcrest, Queens either, so let's not be so arrogant as to place Georgetown as above the fray. The Big East isn't exactly teeming with Carnegie Tier I institutions. As for the PL, Lehigh University is ranked higher by US News than nine other Big East schools and Colgate holds its own with a lot of eastern schools academically. If the PL has bottom weight, it's with schools that do not play football, such as American and Loyola. Largely due to Georgetown's institutional mypoia about football, there aren't a lot of choices. The Ivy isn't interested, the NEC is a step below, and the Pioneer is a unwieldy scheduling alliance that is about to bring on the likes of Presbyterian and Augustana (SD) to its ranks. The idea of actually upgrading football to the betterment of Georgetown athletics sends shivers across 2nd Healy, if for no other reason that it would expose decades of benign neglect. When a fellow Hoya told me that "our peers are actually in the ACC now", he wasn't far from the truth. I... don't really know a what to do with this. Yes, Seton Hall and St. John's aren't super great draws either. That certainly acts as a drag on their basketball programs, among others. It's not insurmountable - being in New York City, even if in a distant part of a borough, or in the proximate orbit of NYC does have some appeal. But that's not really relevant to the question of why some of the Patriot League's football programs find themselves on par with poor, pathetic Georgetown. GU is unquestionably in a different academic tier than the rest of the Patriot League, and, for that matter, the new Big East. That's totally fine, and in no way a slam on those institutions, who are no doubt busy being their best selves. Part of that institutional self-actualization for the football-playing Patriots is, yes, attempting to be above the baseline college football fray. What allowances they do or do not make with respect to football is not necessarily fixed to their relative standards for non-athletes. The same is true for those 'ACC peers' right now - as any number of revelations make clear, every one of those schools, including golden children Duke and UNC, have been willing to stretch their general rules to the point of outright cheating for their revenue sports. That doesn't make it any easier for a non-athlete to gain entry to those institutions. The reason Georgetown doesn't have a lot of choices as far as conferences go is that most of those conferences have decided to suspend any and all rules for their football players, justifying it on the basis of tradition and school spirit and 'just the way things work now.' Schools not willing to make that tradeoff need not be ashamed of doing so... but they should be honest with themselves, and their fans, about what they're doing. I wish Georgetown had that level of fortitude.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Oct 21, 2018 23:40:41 GMT -5
"We're not bad we just lack depth" is basically the athletic version of "we're not fat, we're big boned"
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Post by dundermifflinhoya on Oct 22, 2018 10:37:30 GMT -5
I disagree. Think the first 22 on our depth chart compares favorably with most of the other Patriot league teams. The problem is when injury’s start to pile up, there is a big drop off. We have seen this the last few years with the OL and QB positions.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 22, 2018 12:20:54 GMT -5
I... don't really know a what to do with this. Yes, Seton Hall and St. John's aren't super great draws either. That certainly acts as a drag on their basketball programs, among others. It's not insurmountable - being in New York City, even if in a distant part of a borough, or in the proximate orbit of NYC does have some appeal. But that's not really relevant to the question of why some of the Patriot League's football programs find themselves on part with poor, pathetic Georgetown. GU is unquestionably in a different academic tier than the rest of the Patriot League, and, for that matter, the new Big East. That's totally fine, and in no way a slam on those institutions, who are no doubt busy being their best selves. Part of that institutional self-actualization for the football schools is, yes, attempting to be above the baseline college football fray. What allowances they do or do not make with respect to football is not necessarily fixed to their relative standards for non-athletes. The same is true for those 'ACC peers' right now - as any number of revelations make clear, everyone of those schools, including golden children Duke and UNC, have been willing to stretch their general rules to the point of outright cheating for their revenue sports. That doesn't make it any easier for a non-athlete to gain entry to those institutions. The reason Georgetown doesn't have a lot of choices as far as conferences go is that most of those conferences have decided to suspend any and all rules for their football players, justifying it on the basis of tradition and school spirit and 'just the way things work now.' Schools not willing to make that tradeoff need not be ashamed of doing so... but they should be honest with themselves, and their fans, about what they're doing. I wish Georgetown had that level of fortitude. Well, I...don't really know what to do with this either. My original point was that you didn't need to label the Patriot League as some sort of employer backwater. I don't follow your issue with every conference breaking rules--it's a broad brush and doesn't address the overall situation in college athletics. I'm supportive of the Big East, but they're not the academic or admissions peers we once had.
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Post by bearsandbulls on Oct 22, 2018 18:32:30 GMT -5
I am not an avid follower of Georgetown football, and do understand it has been haunted for various reasons with hard times over the years we have had a student there. But reading the thread here makes me caution fans as to what they really want. My BearsandBulls moniker relates to my having gone to Cal and a family member playing WSOC at G'town. I have fallen in love with the Hoyas and follow the soccer and BB programs very closely. It doesn't mean I do not like football I do, but I don't think G'town puts any emphasis on it. But before you do, be careful. Let me describe it from the opposite position.
Cal has played D1 FB for years with many more valleys than peaks. There is an alumni that would love to win, but will not give one inch on the academics. Being the #1 public university in the US is a matter of insistence. We are fully scholar shipped but the academics are so difficult that we generally wind up with one or two 4 star athletes per class, if that. Athletes that come to Cal rarely can participate in the most rigorous, time consuming majors (engineering, for instance) as FB takes just too much time and energy. We have probably had one or two FB players graduate in engineering since the turn of the century. Also, we will rarely if ever get grad transfers as our grad schools with the exception of public health are almost impossible to get into and accommodations are not made for athletes. So we have some grad transfers out, rarely in. If you get the picture you might understand the frustration. Add to that most FB players want to play FB and have a chance for "the league", so even if they are great students their focus may be on their sport and the Cal scholarship is not that great a pull. Further add to that there are so many schools with the same rigorous academics trying to pull the athletes seriously interested in academics---the Ivies (yes, a lower level of play, but great education), Stanfurd, Rice, Northwestern, Duke, Georgia Tech, and even UNC, UCLA, and Vandy. Of those, Stanfurd does it best, although our arch rival. There is a perception of the Stanfurd scholarship as being of high value. They maintain that their admissions process is so rigorous that unless you are a serious deviate, you will graduate and they will support you to that end.
So coming from the picture I describe, what I would like for my Cal Bears is a scenario (league) where everyone declared and adhered to rigid academic standards. We could play two or three OOC games versus the "general population" just to keep goals high, but have a league of the above mentioned schools and let the dice roll. How we compete with the Arizonas, Oregons, and Washington States of the Pac 12 is very, very difficult with the admissions standards so low and acceptance rates so high. Guess who that lets in, and guess who stays in. Recruiting is a battle, and without quality players, as with Georgetown when you get beyond the top 22, it is a thin Blue line.
So as Georgetown sullies forth, be careful of what you wish for. I love that the academic standards of the soccer teams is so high and the awards so many, along with winning. Lacrosse I think the same. So these are not "dumb jocks" that the general student body should look askance at. Anyway, as with Cal, it may be a pick your poison.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Oct 23, 2018 22:26:00 GMT -5
I disagree. Think the first 22 on our depth chart compares favorably with most of the other Patriot league teams. The problem is when injury’s start to pile up, there is a big drop off. We have seen this the last few years with the OL and QB positions. That's just not accurate. There hasn't been a year that's been accurate in a while. Maaaaaybe 2011.
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CTHoya08
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Bring back Izzo!
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Post by CTHoya08 on Oct 25, 2018 7:24:00 GMT -5
And even if true, in football, there are always injuries. Not having depth is pretty much the same thing as not being good.
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RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,598
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Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 25, 2018 21:19:14 GMT -5
Well, I...don't really know what to do with this either. My original point was that you didn't need to label the Patriot League as some sort of employer backwater. I don't follow your issue with every conference breaking rules--it's a broad brush and doesn't address the overall situation in college athletics. I'm supportive of the Big East, but they're not the academic or admissions peers we once had. The point was not that the (rest of the football-playing) Patriot League is "some sort of employer backwater," it's that those schools are not our peers in some ways - Fordham somewhat excepted - while we are not their peer in football, based on institutional decisions we, and they, have made. If the question is "how can Georgetown possibly compete with these schools this season or any season?" then the answer is a somewhat complicated one that really drives home how pointless the notion of 'peer schools' really is at this point for Georgetown. As I've said before, we have no truly comparable peers and no model to follow, so to the extent that we underperform or overperform in any particular area, be it athletic, academic, or otherwise, there are no ready "just copy what that school did!' solutions to be found. To whit... our peers are in the ACC, are they? Setting aside that half of those schools are big public institutions and most of the privates or in Pitt's case private-ish have very different academic profiles (using admit rate as an imperfect proxy... Pitt has a 54% acceptance rate; Syracuse is at 48%; Miami at 38; Wake Forest at 29) - every one of them has a long-standing D-I football program. History and timing matter, and the status quo is always easier to maintain for as slow-moving of institutions as universities. Were Duke or BC in Georgetown's shoes, given their current institutional profiles, I really rather doubt they would make the jump to scholarship football, much less D-I, either. More to the immediate point: when it comes to football, the Patriot League schools are much more our peers from an "academic or admissions" perspective than any ACC school is, even the ones whose overall academic profile is much closer to ours. Ain't no other way if you wanna go I-A (unless you, like Stanford, have more money than God. And even then...). The tradeoffs those schools have made for the sake of the status quo are very different from the ones we have, because our status quos are very different. It cuts both ways. The reason you see lots of recent big banners hanging down from the Cameron Indoor rafters and not from ours is the same reason why Duke shows up in Bill Self's self-justifying text messages while he's 'doing a cheat' and Georgetown's does not.
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Post by bearsandbulls on Oct 25, 2018 22:38:40 GMT -5
Russky, I love your posts, and I agree with you most often and your are intuitive as hell in most sports. But some of the comments in your last post do not compute. As much as I despise the Stanfurd Cardinal, it should be a prototype of what Georgetown does as opposed to putting it down. They have probably the most rigorous academic admissions standards in the US, and yes, I know we have Harvard, Yale and Princeton. I think many of their kudos come from history, legacy, and east coast bias. Being a West Coaster, Harvard is the Stanfurd of the East, and they are our prime rival at Cal, and respect is usually not accorded thusly. They do it best. You get in with their admission standards and they take care of you unless you are the most total deviate in the world (rape, heavy drugs, murder, etc).
They couple sports excellence, and I mean excellence (Golf, to track, to water polo, to tennis to football, to basketball, to soccer (mens and womens), etc., etc.....The Ivies cannot and do not do this. They couple this with unbelievable academics and "academic support". So, as I would like to throw stones at our natural rival, it is but with respect that I say to you that the Ivies are a bit short when it comes up to Stanfurd. They support their athletes in all their academic adventures which is totally repectful. You get it, you work, you graduate, and their is major assistance in getting a job. Their grad schools are the best from business to medicine to law. Georgetown may see what they are doing so well, and try to emulate it as a starter. I do not believe there is a lack of socioeconomic validity in the DC area, and yes, I do know that Mr Arriaga at Stanfurd is a gift that keeps giving. Just a thought or two.
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RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,598
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Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 26, 2018 19:40:49 GMT -5
Russky, I love your posts, and I agree with you most often and your are intuitive as hell in most sports. But some of the comments in your last post do not compute. As much as I despise the Stanfurd Cardinal, it should be a prototype of what Georgetown does as opposed to putting it down. They have probably the most rigorous academic admissions standards in the US, and yes, I know we have Harvard, Yale and Princeton. I think many of their kudos come from history, legacy, and east coast bias. Being a West Coaster, Harvard is the Stanfurd of the East, and they are our prime rival at Cal, and respect is usually not accorded thusly. They do it best. You get in with their admission standards and they take care of you unless you are the most total deviate in the world (rape, heavy drugs, murder, etc). They couple sports excellence, and I mean excellence (Golf, to track, to water polo, to tennis to football, to basketball, to soccer (mens and womens), etc., etc.....The Ivies cannot and do not do this. They couple this with unbelievable academics and "academic support". So, as I would like to throw stones at our natural rival, it is but with respect that I say to you that the Ivies are a bit short when it comes up to Stanfurd. They support their athletes in all their academic adventures which is totally repectful. You get it, you work, you graduate, and their is major assistance in getting a job. Their grad schools are the best from business to medicine to law. Georgetown may see what they are doing so well, and try to emulate it as a starter. I do not believe there is a lack of socioeconomic validity in the DC area, and yes, I do know that Mr Arriaga at Stanfurd is a gift that keeps giving. Just a thought or two. Ummm... I mean, yeah, Stanford is probably the model for everyone who wants to do academics *AND* nationally-recognized, TV-worthy athletics. Sure. There's a reason why that was Bernard Muir's ultimate stepping stone (and Chris Miltenberg's, among others), for what it's worth. No shade being thrown here in the direction of The Farm. It's a lovely thing to aspire to. Many apologies if I implied otherwise - Stanford is the golden standard. It's important for all of us Hoya partisans to keep in mind, though, that we ain't Stanford. We can aspire to that sort of Golden Mean while recognizing that there are any number of reasons why we cannot simply will ourselves there. And, so, we tackle them headfirst as best we can. To paraphrase Jack DeGioia: we will never be INSERT OTHER SCHOOL HERE. We can only be the best Georgetown we can be. That "best Georgetown," in our current imagination, looks a hell of a lot like an East Coast version of Stanford. And that's totally cool, and a great thing to shoot for. Just gotta remain flexible - and realistic - along the way.
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RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,598
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Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 27, 2018 17:24:21 GMT -5
On a more tongue-in-cheek note... the way you know that the Patriot League schools are indeed truly our football peers is that they do the same sort of soul searching and existential questioning that we do. For proof, look no further than DFW's "What's Wrong With the Patriot League?" thread on Any Given Saturday: www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?214566-What-s-Wrong-With-the-Patriot-League/33 pages (as of this post) and counting.
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Post by bearsandbulls on Oct 28, 2018 11:14:10 GMT -5
I couldn't agree with you and DeGioia more. That, in fact, is what my own school is really trying to figure out. And in the middle of this discussion, Cal goes out and beats Washington in football, so fan expectations rise. But serious consideration has to be given about "Who are we really?", and that is why I think Cal should be playing in an Ivy like atmosphere, as the school and faculty are not really into totally committing to football. Aside the fact I love FB, I cannot argue with that too much. The faculty does not want to diminish the academic brand that Cal has (many would say Berkeley, but I suggest that is a city). The alums are somewhat split on this. The student participation is games is just above so-so. So I am suggesting do what you do well, and Cal does all the Title nine and Olympic type sports very well (water polo, crew, rugby, tennis, swimming, soccer, etc). Not so much the BB and FB....Well guess what the academics and interest level of the four and five star BB and FB players is? "The league" more than the classroom. So guess who can recruit them more easily? Those with relaxed academic standards.
So I see Georgetown in my four year love for the school as being a private with many of the same dilemmas. That must be defined by the President, the AD, alums, and major donors. How do you wish to play it out. The back door way of expressing what goes on, is that most Olympic type sports have a plethora of 4.0/4.5 GPA students to choose from. It works there. Not so FB and BB, so it makes it a tough call. I know our family member who had great academics entering as an athlete feels she is looked at by the general student body as an underserving admit. So there is a confliction even with those qualified. Imagine if you were a 3.3 GPA FB player wanting in to Georgetown? Is such a thing doable? Not sure.
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