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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 13, 2018 15:48:21 GMT -5
Our starters "won" this game. That's right. I will explain below. So I attended the game, and then I came home and watched a bit of it on TV. I was curious to see how our starters did, and also how the team did with Dickerson on the floor. Starters: Today, our starters were Govan/Derrickson/Johnson/Blair/Mulmore. Our starters played three segments in this game: 20:00 to about 13:13 (first half): In this segment Georgetown 21, Seton Hall 11. 20:00 to about 12:38 (second half): In this segment, Georgetown 15, Seton Hall 14. 5:54 to about 1:00 (second half): In this segment, Georgetown 4, Seton Hall 9. So to add this up, overall, Georgetown's starters were 40-34 against Seton Hall. This is useful because it demonstrates how much better our starters are at the moment than our bench, and how awful some of our bench players are playing at the moment. Lineups with Dickerson: 13:13 to about 6:42 (first half): In this segment, Georgetown 6, Seton Hall 15. 11:48 to about 5:54 (second half): In this segment, Georgetown 10, Seton Hall 8. So to add this up overall, Georgetown with Dickerson on the floor was 16-23. Lineups with Pickett: 12:10 to 7:42 (first half): In this segment, Georgetown 5, Seton Hall 9. 11:48 to 6:18 (second half): In this segment, Georgetown 6, Seton Hall 2. I don't want to place the blame solely on Dickerson (though he is bad), because he was paired in lineups without Govan, and with Walker and Pickett, but this simply demonstrates how our bench kills us. Lineups with Mulmore: I have not done the math from watching and the play by play (as I did above), but I am pretty sure Mulmore/Dickerson were on the floor at all times. So if true, Mulmore's lineups were 45-51. Takeaways: - To win games this year, we are going to have to rely heavily on our starters, with some play from Mosely (though he was also horrible today), and a little Walker. Pickett and Dickerson really should get minimal minutes. - Derrickson only played 28 minutes. Given that he was not in foul trouble, he needs to be on the floor. What are we saving him for? He should be playing 30+ minutes. - Mulmore is significantly better than Dickerson, but all of our guards are. Mulmore is the best ball handler we have. Dickerson simply is not better than Mosely or Blair given that he turns it over so much and makes while drives and misses a ton of shots. - Foul Trouble - Mulmore: I know it's conventional wisdom to sit someone after they get 2 fouls in the first half. I disagree with this, and it killed us today. By taking Mulmore out, you're basically punishing yourself anyway. You have to trust your players to control their fouling. Mulmore ended up only having three anyway, yet his time on the bench sunk us. - Foul Trouble - Govan: I was actually happy that Ewing put Govan back in the second half with 4 fouls. It did lead Govan to play basically no defense, but I think you need to go with your best players - again, we were behind and what are you saving him for? If he sits on the bench longer, he's basically not playing anyway, so let him play. - Substitution Patterns: I generally am trying to give Ewing the benefit of the doubt on everything since he's new, and really only 6-7 games into real competition. That said, we were doing well in the first half with the starters, then he did his normal substitution with Dickerson (and Pickett a few minutes later), and that lineup completely tanked us. If the goal is to win games (and I think it should be). Also, "development" isn't a reason to play Dickerson given that he's a graduate student. So why is he playing? As a final note, of course our talent is extremely limited, and we need more talent. That's a given. But, the goal this year should be to win some games (how big would a win against Seton Hall today have been, even if we have no chance at the post season?). If I were Ewing, I would shorten the rotation, sit Dickerson more, and ride my better players harder. This post is absurd.. lol How is it absurd? The top part simply explains how our lineups did today. Are you denying that Dickerson doesn't hurt the team when he plays? I very much respect your posts on recruiting and I am sure you know plenty about the game, but a post like this that doesn't provide any explanation is not very insightful. And in case you missed it, when I said the starters "won" the game, I wasn't being literal. I was simply making the point that our starting lineup outplayed Seton Hall. That's it. That's a fact. Not sure how that's absurd.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 13, 2018 15:51:11 GMT -5
Our problems are much bigger than Dickerson. He is the new whupping boy of hoyatalk. He has officially joined the ranks of the Brandon "Bad" Bowman & Dajuan "Not smiling" Summers Doghouse club.
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dchoya72
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Post by dchoya72 on Jan 13, 2018 15:51:20 GMT -5
Etomic, neither one would have made the team (of Izzo or Coach K) not even as walk-ons.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 13, 2018 15:54:56 GMT -5
Our problems are much bigger than Dickerson. He is the new whupping boy of hoyatalk. He has officially joined the ranks of the Brandon "Bad" Bowman & Dajuan "Not smiling" Summers Doghouse club. Maybe. I'll grant you that the overall problem is talent. But if the goal is to win games, I would offer that the biggest "problems" we have are that Dickerson and Pickett are playing at all. I realize you need to balance development v. winning in a year where we aren't going to play in the post-season. So in that respect, I can see playing Pickett to some degree, but not Dickerson beyond minimal minutes to rest others. I never got the Summers hate. Even as he was in 2008-2009, he'd be way better than most of our roster.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 15:56:44 GMT -5
This post is absurd.. lol How is it absurd? The top part simply explains how our lineups did today. Are you denying that Dickerson doesn't hurt the team when he plays? I very much respect your posts on recruiting and I am sure you know plenty about the game, but a post like this that doesn't provide any explanation is not very insightful. And in case you missed it, when I said the starters "won" the game, I wasn't being literal. I was simply making the point that our starting lineup outplayed Seton Hall. That's it. That's a fact. Not sure how that's absurd. It's a team game. You don't just get to play only your starters and games aren't 18 minutes long. "Our starters won" is the pretty irrelevant. Our starters aren't better than Seton Hall's starters if we're being honest with ourselves and over a 40 minute game that would likely be proven to be true...
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 13, 2018 15:57:08 GMT -5
Do you think Coack K or Izzo would get more out of Dickerson and Mulmore? Yeah I agree that's more a product of personnel not coaching. Agreed. Not worried about the turnovers. The fact is Mulmore and Dickerson average twice as many turnovers as field goals in conference play. I'll go out on a limb and say most senior pg tandems in the Big East don't have that problem, and we probably won't again either.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 13, 2018 16:00:57 GMT -5
It's a team game. You don't just get to play only your starters and games aren't 18 minutes long. "Our starters won" is the pretty irrelevant and our starters aren't better than Seton Hall's starters if we're being honest with ourselves... Again, I think you missed the point. When I said the starters "won," I was being in part sarcastic (hence, why I put it in quotes). But, the fact is they outplayed Seton Hall when they were on the floor today, which is notable. Of course Seton Hall's starters are better than ours. On average, their starters would beat our starters most of the time. But, today, especially at the beginning, we outplayed them. Of course, it's a team game, and you cannot play your starters 40 minutes. But, history is filled with Final Four and championship teams with tight rotations (including many of Coach K's Duke teams). Again, if you want to write off the season and say who cares, we aren't going to go anywhere this season anyway, then I suppose none of it matters. But, I would like to win a few games this season and maybe steal one or two against the better Big East teams.
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Post by 72hoya on Jan 13, 2018 16:02:49 GMT -5
Seton Hall has 4 seniors who are good to excellent college players. We have two very good juniors. Turnovers by poor ballhandlers killed us. But we got in good places on the floor and missed good shots. The Hall was very physical inside and got away with a lot but still 3-4 footers should be made at a better rate than 33%. So I hope our bigs learn some lessons and improve that play. As has been noted by everyone we do not have a mid major ball handler never mind a player fit for Big East play. As to coaching, you can see the improvement is many players but Pickett and Walker seem gun shy in games. They get in good places but can’t make shots and when pressed throw the ball away. These are issues that will improve. Finally, that is a ranked team playing at home in a sold out facility so that we gave them a good fight is not something to be upset about.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 16:03:18 GMT -5
This is simply an example of a real talent/experience diferential. The kids try and PE coaches them, but... What is the staff coaching them on? Doesn't appear to be on how to make basic passes in the half court or out of doubles or in transition.. Ron has a video of the press availability with Jagan before the St Johns game where Jagan discusses what players should do when teammates are doubled. If you want to check it out, it's around the 2 min mark.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 13, 2018 16:12:05 GMT -5
Etomic, neither one would have made the team (of Izzo or Coach K) not even as walk-ons. They might have during their first seasons as coach😉
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 13, 2018 16:16:53 GMT -5
It's a team game. You don't just get to play only your starters and games aren't 18 minutes long. "Our starters won" is the pretty irrelevant and our starters aren't better than Seton Hall's starters if we're being honest with ourselves... Again, I think you missed the point. When I said the starters "won," I was being in part sarcastic (hence, why I put it in quotes). But, the fact is they outplayed Seton Hall when they were on the floor today, which is notable. Of course Seton Hall's starters are better than ours. On average, their starters would beat our starters most of the time. But, today, especially at the beginning, we outplayed them. Of course, it's a team game, and you cannot play your starters 40 minutes. But, history is filled with Final Four and championship teams with tight rotations (including many of Coach K's Duke teams). Again, if you want to write off the season and say who cares, we aren't going to go anywhere this season anyway, then I suppose none of it matters. But, I would like to win a few games this season and maybe steal one or two against the better Big East teams. The rotation was pretty tight today. Pickett only got nine minutes, and I think given where we are, we don't want him getting zero time. 5-10 mins sounds right. And who would his minutes go to? Kaleb already played almost 30. Could you tweak it a bit? Sure, but we are talking about one possession on each end. Same with Walker -- I want him getting some time. I'm good with Marcus taking five of his minutes, but it would be hard for Marcus or Jesse to give you much more than 33. So that just leaves Dickerson. It would be hard to play Mulmore or Blair much more. I'd be fine giving all his time to Moseley, but that's really my only significant critique of the rotation. The others are tweaks.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 13, 2018 16:17:23 GMT -5
Nope.. Do you think they'd get more out of this Team? Edit - Actually I do think they'd get more out of them because they're better & more experienced coaches.. They wouldn't. Ewing is maximizing the talent on this team. He is playing guys who he probably wouldn't want to play, but has no choice. He has played guys more minutes to get experience. It has worked out for Blair, not yet for Pickett. Mulmore is limited, but Ewing understands he has great heart and is a great athlete to at least push the ball and hound guards on the defensive end. Dickerson has to play to spell Mulmore at times. He has Mulmore's flaws, but also lacks Mulmore's defensive skills and athleticism. He could use Jagan instead but Jagan has to also spell the frontcourt when we go small because Sodom is gone and Jessie and Marcus can't play the entire game. Walker is as raw as Pickett. Ewing has bodies, but very few ballplayers right now. It is pretty much Marcus and Jessie with Blair gradually coming along. That is it. Johnson and Jagan are role players at best right now. Coack K or Izzo would be struggling as hard as Ewing right now. Your post is telling the same story many other posters are telling in this thread and that story is that Gtown lacks talent which I agree with.. But to me the lack of talent doesn't excuse the lazy turnovers that has plagued this team all season long.. This pronounced problem tells me the staff isn't maximizing this teams potential..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 16:21:29 GMT -5
It's a team game. You don't just get to play only your starters and games aren't 18 minutes long. "Our starters won" is the pretty irrelevant and our starters aren't better than Seton Hall's starters if we're being honest with ourselves... Again, I think you missed the point. When I said the starters "won," I was being in part sarcastic (hence, why I put it in quotes). But, the fact is they outplayed Seton Hall when they were on the floor today, which is notable. Of course Seton Hall's starters are better than ours. On average, their starters would beat our starters most of the time. But, today, especially at the beginning, we outplayed them. Of course, it's a team game, and you cannot play your starters 40 minutes. But, history is filled with Final Four and championship teams with tight rotations (including many of Coach K's Duke teams). Again, if you want to write off the season and say who cares, we aren't going to go anywhere this season anyway, then I suppose none of it matters. But, I would like to win a few games this season and maybe steal one or two against the better Big East teams. I don't really think it is, today's game wasn't close.. You seem to have quite a few critiques of the coach but getting out to a 20-11 lead is a sign of good coaching as it shows the team was well prepared and our gameplan was sound. Seton Hall leveled up and we couldn't match. That was the game. Whenever they ratcheted up their intensity, they wen't on a run, and they controlled the game for the last 30 minutes of play. We're not close to a final four or championship team so I don't see how that's relevant. To do that with a team that has legit title aspirations, or even NCAA aspirations is fine, but even if coach dished out minutes and strategized exactly how you want him to what do you think this teams ceiling is?
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 13, 2018 16:28:13 GMT -5
Our problems are much bigger than Dickerson. He is the new whupping boy of hoyatalk. He has officially joined the ranks of the Brandon "Bad" Bowman & Dajuan "Not smiling" Summers Doghouse club. Amen to this. Not saying that Dickerson is not a problem and a significant one, but anyone watching today who is zeroing in on Dickerson is tunnel-visioned. Mosley was bad, once again making careless and lazy turnovers, Kaleb was bad except for about 8 garbage time points which made his final stats look good, the play of Pickett continues to deteriorate due to a lack of a handle and confidence and Blair was careless at times with the ball and with some shots. Govan had a poor game and one which could be anticipated against a stronger post and with the officials letting a lot go. It is so much more than Dickerson.
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bamahoya11
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Post by bamahoya11 on Jan 13, 2018 16:36:05 GMT -5
This team has so many problems it's really hard to know where to start. I actually think today's game wasn't that bad. We lost to a very good Seton Hall team with a lot of veteran players on the road. We played well at the start and played well in phases of the second half. Over the final 20 minutes of the game, we played Seton Hall to a draw. If we keep it together and don't get our heads down, I think we could actually give them a game in a few weeks in Washington. Given the way the game went, I'm honestly a bit surprised by the general tone on the board. Yes, it's frustrating to lose, and, of course, we did our usual frustrating things in losing, but we also did show some toughness in stretches of the game. Govan did well playing with four fouls. Derrickson played well again. I actually thought Mulmore and Johnson both had moments. Blair did ok in his first game as a starter.
That said, I do come back to my first sentence -- this team has many problems. Coach Ewing isn't going to "coach" his way out of that problem this season. You can't win basketball games with just a starting five. You need, at a minimum, 7 or 8 players to field a competitive basketball team, and you have to combine those players into various rotations. We really can't play, especially against good competition, without both Derrickson and Govan in the game. We need them both so that all the pressure isn't on the one of them in the game. Today, we had to play without them for large stretches due to foul trouble. Beyond those two, the players who are "on" differ from day to day. Mulmore was ok today, but he's frequently awful. Blair and Jagan usually show promise. Blair was ok today, and I thought Jagan was awful. There's no way that our coach can prepare our team for consistent rotations because the players play completely differently from game to game. I seriously doubt that Coach Ewing truly knows what to expect until he goes out there to see them play.
I will say that the careless turnovers are frustrating. To my untrained eye, it looks like we are just throwing away the ball to places where people aren't. I think it's a consequence of trying to run a new system and convince players to play faster. Ewing wants players to run. He wants guards to drive. When we run and drive, we make mistakes. Lots of mistakes. So, he could either give up on teaching these guys anything, or continue to teach them and work through mistakes. He has chosen the latter path, but it doesn't make the turnovers less agonizing at times.
I'm not happy with the game today, but I do think this team actually deserves some credit. For me, the Creighton game was a low point. That day, the opposing team could just name their score and we did everything wrong. Today we did a lot of things wrong, but we did some things right against a very good team on the road. We also didn't give up, as evinced by the second half score and the fact that several times we cut it to 8 points and had opportunities to cut the lead further and just couldn't.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 13, 2018 16:45:23 GMT -5
They wouldn't. Ewing is maximizing the talent on this team. He is playing guys who he probably wouldn't want to play, but has no choice. He has played guys more minutes to get experience. It has worked out for Blair, not yet for Pickett. Mulmore is limited, but Ewing understands he has great heart and is a great athlete to at least push the ball and hound guards on the defensive end. Dickerson has to play to spell Mulmore at times. He has Mulmore's flaws, but also lacks Mulmore's defensive skills and athleticism. He could use Jagan instead but Jagan has to also spell the frontcourt when we go small because Sodom is gone and Jessie and Marcus can't play the entire game. Walker is as raw as Pickett. Ewing has bodies, but very few ballplayers right now. It is pretty much Marcus and Jessie with Blair gradually coming along. That is it. Johnson and Jagan are role players at best right now. Coack K or Izzo would be struggling as hard as Ewing right now. I am not going to break down all the reason because they have been broken down in the same threads but K and Izzo would have at the very least 2 less losses with this team. To think that Pat has coached as well as can be done with this team means you have some very tinted Hoyas glasses. He's shown some signs of improvement while still doing some really head shaking things. He still has a long way to go and hopefully he gets there. Is this response for real?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 16:55:18 GMT -5
I am not going to break down all the reason because they have been broken down in the same threads but K and Izzo would have at the very least 2 less losses with this team. To think that Pat has coached as well as can be done with this team means you have some very tinted Hoyas glasses. He's shown some signs of improvement while still doing some really head shaking things. He still has a long way to go and hopefully he gets there. Is this response for real? Yeah idk... Coach K has 2 lottery picks and 4 first rounders on his team and he still lost to BC and NC State. They're both great coaches but that's just the way the ball bounces sometimes.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 13, 2018 17:03:31 GMT -5
What is the staff coaching them on? Doesn't appear to be on how to make basic passes in the half court or out of doubles or in transition.. Ron has a video of the press availability with Jagan before the St Johns game where Jagan discusses what players should do when teammates are doubled. If you want to check it out, it's around the 2 min mark. I saw that clip, I liked his answer but unfortunately it's not being executed on the court right now..
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mdtd
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Post by mdtd on Jan 13, 2018 17:04:16 GMT -5
I personally think that the problem with Pickett is that he is overly tentative and does not drive. He seems lacking in confidence and slow at times. He needs this playing time to develop and work inside. With him driving more and not only shooting threes his confidence should go up and make defense respect the drive allowing him for a higher three point percentage too. Dickerson has not nearly played to my expectations. He seems to know the game well at sometimes, then seems to be lacking at other times. He did average 11 points on 33% shooting from three last year so i was expecting an alright bench player who could change the pace. He has lost all confidence and is not shooting when we need him to. If he is more aggressive defenders can't double off of him and our bigs can work with him. If these guys can do this, we could win games against teams that we would not be favored in. Blair has been so beneficial for hiss aggressiveness, we need these two to be aggressive. Now, Villanova isn't very winnable but after that if these guys are aggressive starting against St.John's we can compete in this league.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Jan 13, 2018 17:13:15 GMT -5
No accountability until it was too late. This team should have Copeland, White, LJ, and Tre. That's a 5*, 2-4*, and a 3*. Not to mention a 5* pg thats currently in the SEC. You can't blame 3s recruiting. Player development of that class can be questioned.... I still remember that group being the greatest recruiting class, ever. You are mentioning a lot of swing/combo guys who don't dominate the ball unless you play them out of position and none are a PG. Campbell appeared to be a shooting guard in a PG's body, but I think everyone can agree that Campbell was a miss. The biggest recruit coming in this year was Tremont Waters as a PG, you think Waters would have made the team NCAAT eligible?
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