EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Oct 15, 2019 11:38:16 GMT -5
It’s a slippery slope leading to fairly compensating the people generating the billions in revenue. It will not and should not be an equal distribution between the schools or the players. I can’t for the life of me understand why people find this so objectionable. These guys create tens of billions of dollars every year and yet we’re supposed to pretend like they just a bunch of guys doing this on the side for fun? That notion was antiquated 50 years ago and it’s an absurd joke today. This topic has been discussed a ton, but a few quick points: - While players clearly help to generate revenue, the universities bring a ton of value too because most people are ultimately fans of the teams, not the players. There are a few exceptions, but that's really it. Now, that doesn't mean universities should get all the money, but I think this aspect is often lost among the "pay the players" crowd. - After expenses, nobody is earning "billions" and when you do spread the profit among the 4,500 or so Divison I basketball players, it actually doesn't end up being all that much. And, frankly, probably 4,000 of the 4,500 or so Division I players market value is probably de minimus in monetary terms. We tend to look at things through the Big East/Georgetown lens, but it's easy to forget there are a ton of D1 conferences that really do not make much, if any, money.
- I have no problem with guys being compensated for use of their likeness, jerseys, etc. I do not think there should be an open market. I think there are lots of things that can be done in between, and I would be open to that if it can be done in a fair way. - College basketball is a university based system, based on scholarships, which do add value to the students, even though many people don't view it that way. I think any system that fails to account for that benefit ignores one of the realities of the system. It simply is not a professional league, and will never work effectively as one. The rules on compensation will affect every single player obviously but we all know only the HM will be able to get anything out of the new rules, it's always like that so this change won't be any different... www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2015/05/22/cost-of-attendance-stipends-show-which-sports-colleges-want-to-spend-on/In and around Washington, how colleges are handling the stipends provides a microcosm of how this change is playing out across Division I, the financially disparate top tier of college athletics that includes wealthy powerhouses such as Texas and smaller institutions such as Howard. Many big schools in the so-called “power five conferences” are giving the extra spending money to all scholarship athletes, while some schools in smaller conferences are providing the stipends only to basketball players, or are declining to offer them altogether.
In this region, Virginia and Maryland — both members of financially flush power conferences — are giving stipends to all scholarship athletes. Georgetown, George Washington and George Mason will give the stipends only to men’s and women’s basketball players. And Howard and American, the smallest local schools in Division I, are not adding the stipends for any of their athletes, although American Athletics Director Billy Walker said his school was “exploring our options.”To me you can't try to hide behind the "majority of players aren't worth anything" argument... I also think the NCAA could get all kids some extra loot if they just allowed sponsors of pre-season tourneys to kick in some money to the players that participate the same way it's done in CFB. www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/10-ways-college-athletes-can-get-paid-and-remain-eligible-for-their-sport/?irgwc=1 Bowl gifts/postseason awards. If a booster gives a player a gift, that's an NCAA no-no. If a bowl game gives a player a gift, this is called a postseason award. A football player can get gifts valued up to $550 from a bowl and up to $400 by his school. There are even bowl gift suites and Visa gift cards for players. In all sports, the NCAA allows schools to give awards to underclassmen (maximum value $225 each) and seniors ($425) for annual participation. There are awards for winning a national championship ($415 maximum per player) or winning a conference regular season/postseason championship ($325). If you win a national award such as the Heisman Trophy, that award is worth up to $325. If you're the MVP of a bowl game or all-star contest, you can get up to $350 in an award. And if you make special contributions to your team's season -- examples cited by the NCAA rulebook are best scholar-athlete, most improved player, most minutes played and most valuable player -- your max award value is $175.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 15, 2019 12:13:00 GMT -5
The way you reign in coaches salaries is to pay the players. Why would that make a difference? It's not like Alabama would cut Saban's salary to cover Tua. It's like those politicians who want to cut CEO salaries. They don't set their salaries, their boards do.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Oct 15, 2019 12:28:55 GMT -5
The way you reign in coaches salaries is to pay the players. Why would that make a difference? It's not like Alabama would cut Saban's salary to cover Tua. It's like those politicians who want to cut CEO salaries. They don't set their salaries, their boards do. Of course they would. Assuming the amount of money available does not change, if they have to pay the players, they'd reallocate out of coaches and admin and to the players.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 15, 2019 12:35:46 GMT -5
Why would that make a difference? It's not like Alabama would cut Saban's salary to cover Tua. It's like those politicians who want to cut CEO salaries. They don't set their salaries, their boards do. Of course they would. Assuming the amount of money available does not change, if they have to pay the players, they'd reallocate out of coaches and admin and to the players. Have you been to Alabama?
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Oct 15, 2019 12:48:37 GMT -5
Then they have to make the size of the pie bigger. Maybe that works at Alabama but it is not the macro solution. On the whole, coaches and admins will be paid less as players are paid more.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Oct 15, 2019 13:08:41 GMT -5
To me you can't try to hide behind the "majority of players aren't worth anything" argument... I also think the NCAA could get all kids some extra loot if they just allowed sponsors of pre-season tourneys to kick in some money to the players that participate the same way it's done in CFB. www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/10-ways-college-athletes-can-get-paid-and-remain-eligible-for-their-sport/?irgwc=1 Bowl gifts/postseason awards. If a booster gives a player a gift, that's an NCAA no-no. If a bowl game gives a player a gift, this is called a postseason award. A football player can get gifts valued up to $550 from a bowl and up to $400 by his school. There are even bowl gift suites and Visa gift cards for players. In all sports, the NCAA allows schools to give awards to underclassmen (maximum value $225 each) and seniors ($425) for annual participation. There are awards for winning a national championship ($415 maximum per player) or winning a conference regular season/postseason championship ($325). If you win a national award such as the Heisman Trophy, that award is worth up to $325. If you're the MVP of a bowl game or all-star contest, you can get up to $350 in an award. And if you make special contributions to your team's season -- examples cited by the NCAA rulebook are best scholar-athlete, most improved player, most minutes played and most valuable player -- your max award value is $175.
I think that's a fair point, and would have no problem with this. I would have to think about it a bit more, but on initially thinking about it, I have no problem with the November tournaments and/or the NCAA tournament throwing some cash in the direction of the players. Really, most of the money for college basketball comes from TV. And then, there are two different sources: (1) the massive NCAA contract with CBS/TNT/TBS/TruTV, and (2) the deals that the conferences get with ESPN/FS1, etc., such as the Big East's contract and the lucrative ESPN contracts (which are often intertwined with the football contracts). So really, the issue is, do the players get some of that money. I think Etomic's suggestion is one that would get them some of that money in a fair manner.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Oct 15, 2019 19:36:20 GMT -5
Okay so here's the Doctor's take on all this. Demand the NBA create a real minor league basketball system. Model it on MLB and the way MLB handles college baseball players. Meanwhile, re-institute the freshman ineligible rule and require players complete 3 years of college before becoming draft eligible (although allow a hardship exception after 2 years). In short, return college basketball to what it is supposed to be and provide kids who want to play professionally and have no desire to go to college an avenue to realize their desire. Face it, this whole mess is due to the fact that the NBA, like the NFL, has been using college as a free minor league with the whole-hearted, greed fueled cooperation of colleges and the NCAA. Anything short of this will create all sorts of absurd player pay proposals and further corrupt the sport.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Oct 15, 2019 19:44:26 GMT -5
Does this also means the schools and NCAA give up the giant TV contracts and stop selling tickets to the games? Do the coaches go back to teaching classes and coaching the team on the side for a stipend and the love of the game?
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Oct 16, 2019 5:06:06 GMT -5
I wish college basketball could go back to a more pure and innocent time. My fear is that it will only get worse and sports betting will be the next catalyst. There is so much money involved and everyone on the food chain has got their hands out. States are going to get involved with sports betting, which includes college sports. Oregon is about to launch a sports betting app for its residents. Coaches and players will be paid to influence scores.
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Post by bigelephant on Oct 16, 2019 7:02:55 GMT -5
I wish college basketball could go back to a more pure and innocent time. My fear is that it will only get worse and sports betting will be the next catalyst. There is so much money involved and everyone on the food chain has got their hands out. States are going to get involved with sports betting, which includes college sports. Oregon is about to launch a sports betting app for its residents. Coaches and players will be paid to influence scores. I fear you are right. The game will never be the same as it was. How are you going to get coaches and kids on the same page and ignore the money? Not going to happen.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Oct 16, 2019 7:32:02 GMT -5
I wish college basketball could go back to a more pure and innocent time. My fear is that it will only get worse and sports betting will be the next catalyst. There is so much money involved and everyone on the food chain has got their hands out. States are going to get involved with sports betting, which includes college sports. Oregon is about to launch a sports betting app for its residents. Coaches and players will be paid to influence scores. When exactly was this pure and innocent time? There was a very famous point shaving incident back in 1950 (CCNY) so I guess before that? You have good memories of WWII era college basketball?
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Oct 16, 2019 7:47:41 GMT -5
Yeah, peach basket on the side of my barn.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Oct 16, 2019 10:00:09 GMT -5
I wish college basketball could go back to a more pure and innocent time. My fear is that it will only get worse and sports betting will be the next catalyst. There is so much money involved and everyone on the food chain has got their hands out. States are going to get involved with sports betting, which includes college sports. Oregon is about to launch a sports betting app for its residents. Coaches and players will be paid to influence scores. I fear you are right. The game will never be the same as it was. How are you going to get coaches and kids on the same page and ignore the money? Not going to happen. Betting on sports has been legal in Nevada for decades, and it has been up and running in New Jersey for a bit now. Betting on the NCAA tournament and other basketball games has been legal in Las Vegas for a long time. And in the northeast, the mob ran illegal sports betting for decades, even before it was legal. There's nothing new here, it's just more widespread, and sports betting is here to stay. The best way to handle these issues is to regulate it, and have strict controls in place to deal with corruption when it does occur.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Oct 16, 2019 15:17:25 GMT -5
I wish college basketball could go back to a more pure and innocent time. My fear is that it will only get worse and sports betting will be the next catalyst. There is so much money involved and everyone on the food chain has got their hands out. States are going to get involved with sports betting, which includes college sports. Oregon is about to launch a sports betting app for its residents. Coaches and players will be paid to influence scores. When exactly was this pure and innocent time? There was a very famous point shaving incident back in 1950 (CCNY) so I guess before that? You have good memories of WWII era college basketball? The point isn't that college basketball was ever "innocent" The point is that the sport has never been as totally corrupt as it is now and unless we adopt a model like the one I propose (and I believe Booby Knight has proposed) we can kiss college basketball goodbye. BTW, as a card carrying democratic socialist, I hope everyone sees this mess as a classic example of what our capitalist inspired greed will always produce. As Karl Marx wrote, "The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to...It has converted the he physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into paid wage laborers." Now add to the list college athletes.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Oct 16, 2019 15:19:41 GMT -5
I wish college basketball could go back to a more pure and innocent time. My fear is that it will only get worse and sports betting will be the next catalyst. There is so much money involved and everyone on the food chain has got their hands out. States are going to get involved with sports betting, which includes college sports. Oregon is about to launch a sports betting app for its residents. Coaches and players will be paid to influence scores. When exactly was this pure and innocent time? There was a very famous point shaving incident back in 1950 (CCNY) so I guess before that? You have good memories of WWII era college basketball? That point shaving scandal came right on the heels of being the only team ever to win NIT and NCAA the same year. And that was when the NIT was the much bigger deal.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Oct 16, 2019 16:34:32 GMT -5
When exactly was this pure and innocent time? There was a very famous point shaving incident back in 1950 (CCNY) so I guess before that? You have good memories of WWII era college basketball? The point isn't that college basketball was ever "innocent" The point is that the sport has never been as totally corrupt as it is now and unless we adopt a model like the one I propose (and I believe Booby Knight has proposed) we can kiss college basketball goodbye. BTW, as a card carrying democratic socialist, I hope everyone sees this mess as a classic example of what our capitalist inspired greed will always produce. As Karl Marx wrote, "The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to...It has converted the he physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into paid wage laborers." Now add to the list college athletes. I don't see how this can be a true statement in any way, there have been many scandals in college basketball going back decades... I believe the only difference between now & then is the 24-hour news cycle... Tell us what era of CBB was scandal-free? Show us a blue Blood program that's scandal-free, even the great UCLA run with John Wooden has skeletons... www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-jun-08-la-sp-0609-wooden-gilbert-20100609-story.htmlHe forged bonds with many Bruins who helped hang 10 national championship banners from 1964 to 1975, the year Wooden retired.
Gilbert held dinners at his home, provided UCLA players with advice, counsel and much, much more. He was “Papa Sam” to UCLA’s parade of All-Americans — he even negotiated contracts, usually taking only a dollar, when the NBA beckoned various Bruins.
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hoya9797
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Post by hoya9797 on Oct 16, 2019 17:20:17 GMT -5
Fixing the outcome of games is corrupt. Paying players some fraction of what they are worth is not.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Oct 16, 2019 18:09:09 GMT -5
Fixing the outcome of games is corrupt. Paying players some fraction of what they are worth is not. For as long as the schools want to remain NCAA members it is quite corrupt. Either change the rules or obey them.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Oct 16, 2019 19:56:28 GMT -5
The rules are not being obeyed. The problem is the lack of strict enforcement, accountability and punishment.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Oct 16, 2019 22:06:34 GMT -5
The point isn't that college basketball was ever "innocent" The point is that the sport has never been as totally corrupt as it is now and unless we adopt a model like the one I propose (and I believe Booby Knight has proposed) we can kiss college basketball goodbye. BTW, as a card carrying democratic socialist, I hope everyone sees this mess as a classic example of what our capitalist inspired greed will always produce. As Karl Marx wrote, "The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to...It has converted the he physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into paid wage laborers." Now add to the list college athletes. I don't see how this can be a true statement in any way, there have been many scandals in college basketball going back decades... I believe the only difference between now & then is the 24-hour news cycle... Tell us what era of CBB was scandal-free? Show us a blue Blood program that's scandal-free, even the great UCLA run with John Wooden has skeletons... www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2010-jun-08-la-sp-0609-wooden-gilbert-20100609-story.htmlHe forged bonds with many Bruins who helped hang 10 national championship banners from 1964 to 1975, the year Wooden retired.
Gilbert held dinners at his home, provided UCLA players with advice, counsel and much, much more. He was “Papa Sam” to UCLA’s parade of All-Americans — he even negotiated contracts, usually taking only a dollar, when the NBA beckoned various Bruins.Wow. I assumed most posters were GU grads. If you guys can't tell the difference between some goombas bribing kids to point shave or a booster giving players walking around money and the wholesale corruption of college bball by corporate America I think the Jesuits need to work harder. Yes there have been scandals in college bball over the years but once the sport became a multi-million/billion dollar business corruption became endemic. Anything short of returning it to its pre national TV origins just allows the corrupted NCAA to prolong the charade.
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