This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
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Post by This Just In on Apr 7, 2017 8:10:30 GMT -5
In the end recruitment of talent and coaching the talent up on the roster fell off to an unacceptable level. I rate: DePaul a 1 St. Johns a 4 Gtown a 3 as far as where the program is... Which means on a scale of 1 to 10 of how hard a rebuilding job the Hoyas' are with 10 being the hardest, the rebuilding job is a 7. This is not even close to being true....every single person in the media and coaching industry I've personally spoken to has said this is an easy rebuilding job, if done correctly. Not one - and I've spoken to plenty of people - said this is a difficult rebuilding job. They have their opinion and I have mine... The team is coming off of back to back 18 games losing seasons The coaches I have spoken to have informed me that the program is in bad shape We disagree on what shape the program is in and for how long the slide has occurred. Overall Record Since NBE: 69 -62 (52%), 7 gms above .500 Overall NBE Record: 34-44 (43%), 10 gms below .500 I will be more than happy to discuss with you our various views as the seasons progress thru the years. Below are the teams that have owned the Hoyas for 4 years in the NBE (which goes beyond the last 2 losing seasons): Record Vs. Villanova: 1-7 (.125) Record Vs. Providence: 1-7 (.125) Record Vs. Xavier: 2-6 (.250) Record vs Seton Hall: 2-6 (.250) Combined Record 6-26 (.187) My expectation of the new coach is: Year 1- Above .500 Year 2- NIT Bid Year 3- NCAA Bid How long do you believe the rebuild will take (preferably give a solid number of years)?
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,465
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Post by TC on Apr 7, 2017 8:23:11 GMT -5
The whole 80's nostalgia has to be kept in check. Over in the assistant coaching thread they want to put the whole gang back together.... be a bunch of 6 foot nine inch guys with gray hair, all smelling like Ben Gay. Please. Our head coach is old; the staff has to be balanced with youth and energy. Yes I understand that there needs to be a guide to the college/recruiting world. But that could be a younger guy. Sounds like the search may have been a farce as many suspected all along. The good thing is, hopefully by the time of the NEXT search, the whole cast (Pops, Tagliabue, Reed, and especially DeG) will be off the stage. I don't think "Hoya" = Latin for "job for life." I think there's two camps there in the assistant coach thread : - the "we should employ one older former head coach who has experience coaching and can help Patrick Ewing out, and young recruiting assistants" camp - the "our coaching staff should consist of every Hoya we can remember from the 1980's" camp
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,592
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Post by This Just In on Apr 7, 2017 8:36:05 GMT -5
More trickles of information about the "search." Sounds more like behind the scenes lobbying of key influencers and getting the nod from the Godfather drove decision-making than anything else. www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/5/patrick-ewing-takes-over-georgetown/ theundefeated.com/features/patrick-ewing-restore-georgetowns-glory-days/So the most obvious 'gettable' candidates (Hurley, Rice, Crean, etc.) were either not contacted or never seriously considered. The aspirational contacts outside of the "family" were for guys firmly entrenched elsewhere (Smart, Brey, Cooley, Mack) and unlikely to leave. Tommy Amaker, an uninspired but competent candidate was the only other name under serious consideration but likely only because he was a JT2-approved Falk client. That's what you call a high major D1 coaching search? This sort of insular, narrow process is anything but healthy. No wonder some coaches didn't want anything to do with Georgetown. This is not how a high major program should operate. Is it possible to be both happy for Pat but disappointed in how Georgetown hoops is administered? I hope we luck out and Pat is some kind of college hoops coaching master ready to emerge, but the way this played out is disheartening. Maybe Georgetown admins should worry less about recreating 1982 photo ops and worry more about winning some Big East games in 2018. The whole 80's nostalgia has to be kept in check. Over in the assistant coaching thread they want to put the whole gang back together.... be a bunch of 6 foot nine inch guys with gray hair, all smelling like Ben Gay. Please. Our head coach is old; the staff has to be balanced with youth and energy. Yes I understand that there needs to be a guide to the college/recruiting world. But that could be a younger guy. Sounds like the search may have been a farce as many suspected all along. The good thing is, hopefully by the time of the NEXT search, the whole cast (Pops, Tagliabue, Reed, and especially DeG) will be off the stage. I don't think "Hoya" = Latin for "job for life." This is roughly how things occured: 1. JTIII gets fired 2. Search firm is hired 2. Feelers are sent out to Smart, Brey, Amaker and others 3. Patrick Ewing debates if he is interested in job after the firing as feelers are sent out 4. Ewing decides he is interested in the job and either himself or David Falk makes the phone call 5. Once Ewing expresses interest via the phone call, shortly after the search is closed A. Ewing appeases the President, A.D., & JTII who did not want to fire JTIII B. It keeps the coaching job within the Thompson Tree C. It appeases portions of the fan base and The Board by hearkening back to the glory years of the 80's D. Ewing has NBA coaching experience 6. Ewing is hired
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SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,402
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Post by SaxaCD on Apr 7, 2017 8:37:02 GMT -5
The whole 80's nostalgia has to be kept in check. Over in the assistant coaching thread they want to put the whole gang back together.... be a bunch of 6 foot nine inch guys with gray hair, all smelling like Ben Gay. Please. Our head coach is old; the staff has to be balanced with youth and energy. Yes I understand that there needs to be a guide to the college/recruiting world. But that could be a younger guy. Sounds like the search may have been a farce as many suspected all along. The good thing is, hopefully by the time of the NEXT search, the whole cast (Pops, Tagliabue, Reed, and especially DeG) will be off the stage. I don't think "Hoya" = Latin for "job for life." I think there's two camps there in the assistant coach thread : - the "we should employ one older former head coach who has experience coaching and can help Patrick Ewing out, and young recruiting assistants" camp - the "our coaching staff should consist of every Hoya we can remember from the 1980's" camp Don't forget the "ewwww, yuck, we don't want anything too Georgetowny, it's just so uncoooool" camp.
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jwp91
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,059
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Post by jwp91 on Apr 7, 2017 10:05:26 GMT -5
This search was the first search I have gone through as a Georgetown fan. I wasn't following the team when Georgetown fired Esherick and hired JTIII, so this was my first exposure to it. Having now gone through this search, my view of the program has changed. Before the search, I viewed the Georgetown program as a top 15-20 basketball program. Like most other such programs, the fans had relatively high expectations but also realized that we are a step below the truly elite programs (Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, etc.). Georgetown paid big money for a coach and accordingly expected big results. Moreover, although the program celebrated its past (more than comparable institutions), it was not fully wedded to it. Thus, as the calls for JTIII to be removed grew louder, I figured we would do what other top 20 programs do -- we would hire a trusted, established name to bring a fresh set of eyes to the program and rebuild it. And spare me the notion that absolutely no established name would have come. Although I don't have personal knowledge of the search, I have every confidence that we could have gotten an established current college head coach to lead the Hoyas. Instead, we didn't go that direction. We went with a former player who isn't a natural fit for the position -- NBA assistant, no head coaching experience, no college coaching experience. And, for the most part, this Board supported that decision in full. Folks like me who didn't like this approach were largely dismissed, though we were a vocal minority. That has led me to a simple conclusion -- whatever I might want, Georgetown is firmly within the orbit of the Thompson family, and it will be for the foreseeable future. Although this is a loaded statement on this board, I'm trying to be neutral -- this is just a statement of where things are. The Thompson influence is not just because of JTII's personal exertion of control. It's because a core of the administrative leadership and a significant core of the fan base are more comfortable with that connection to the past than embracing the future. I saw this play out firsthand on this board. The vulnerabilities and weaknesses of other coaches were dissected thoroughly, while Ewing's own weaknesses were either downplayed or ignored outright. Indeed, most folks on here used his lack of a record as positive; it's really hard to prove that someone with no head coaching record can't be an effective head coach. Frankly, I think the administration at Georgetown had a similar conversation. They explored some other options, and then, like the fan base, quickly retreated to what made them comfortable, especially once it became clear that it would be difficult, and possibly messy, to obtain an established head coaching name. Simply put, a critical mass of the fan base and a critical mass of Georgetown's leadership want a program that remains interwoven with its past. Both bases of support are also deeply suspicious of change, of anything that seems to suggest a departure from the program's history. I think that's why you have a few die-hards on here defending even some of the most trivial things to do with Georgetown, like playing outdated music at games or affirmatively supporting a refusal to consider advanced analytics or other new tech that enhances the game for a lot of teams (personally, I'm fine with the outdated music because that's what I listen to anyway, but still). Thus, Patrick Ewing is the hire we have and the only type of hire that the program can currently support. There just isn't enough interest in the program to support the type of wholesale changes that plenty of us want. Now, again, I'm not trying to slam the Ewing hire. The time for arguing about that was before the hire was made, not after. But I think it's a mistake to act like this hire happened and now everyone just retreats to their proverbial corners. The administration was confronted with a clear choice -- choose the quintessential throwback hire, a person who speaks to the greatest days of the program's history, or take a chance on a face of the future. The school opted for the former choice, with the support of a majority of this board. I hope these folks are right, and we can win big with Ewing. For me, that'll be a pleasant surprise. But I will not support these same folks who promoted Ewing wildly on this board coming back in 2-3 years if we are struggling and begging for a change of direction. We had our chance for a change of direction this year. And we didn't take it. We chose to go with the "family" approach, whatever that means. Personally, I hope we win big. But if we lose big, I think that's the program we have chosen and the program the University deserves. Georgetown chose to go all-in on the past, and I think they have to take the good with the bad in that regard. I would not be willing to support any further changes, even if I believed they were necessary, unless I believed that the school and the fan base were actually ready to make them. I would re-frame your observation differently. What you call interwoven with the past, I call understanding the Georgetown 'brand.' If you opened a can of Coke today, and skim milked poured out, you would be disappointed. Skim milk is better for you than Coke, but when you open a Coke, you want a Coke. Georgetown basketball's brand has a tremendous amount of meaning - as much or more than any other Division 1 basketball school. We needed a search that at the minimum respected the brand. And that brand is about more than just winning. It includes a deflated basketball on the desk among many other brand attributes. You hire some guy like Bennet from St. Mary's and you basically flush the brand....even if you start winning games. Patrick Ewing embodies the brand more than anyone. And you know what? When you start evaluating his background and what he brings to the job, he is a phenomenal candidate. Is he 'can't miss?' No. But apparently, neither is Shaka. Just ask Texas. Does he have challenges? Yes, he has to become a killer recruiter and assemble a top notch team. He also has to adapt to the college game. But Patrick Freaking Ewing is going to walk into living rooms and work with AAU teams to try to land that top recruits in the country. It is worth an experiment to see if it works. Meanwhile, not a single person who has played with him or worked with him has said anything but glowing compliments about him. Let's get on board and excited about this hire.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 7, 2017 10:21:38 GMT -5
Georgetown basketball's brand has a tremendous amount of meaning - as much or more than any other Division 1 basketball school. We needed a search that at the minimum respected the brand. And that brand is about more than just winning. It includes a deflated basketball on the desk among many other brand attributes. You hire some guy like Bennet from St. Mary's and you basically flush the brand....even if you start winning games. Patrick Ewing embodies the brand more than anyone. And you know what? When you start evaluating his background and what he brings to the job, he is a phenomenal candidate. Is he 'can't miss?' No. But apparently, neither is Shaka. Just ask Texas. Does he have challenges? Yes, he has to become a killer recruiter and assemble a top notch team. He also has to adapt to the college game. But Patrick Freaking Ewing is going to walk into living rooms and work with AAU teams to try to land that top recruits in the country. It is worth an experiment to see if it works. Meanwhile, not a single person who has played with him or worked with him has said anything but glowing compliments about him. Let's get on board and excited about this hire. I will preface this by saying I am "on board" and I am cautiously optimistic that this hire could turn out well. I certainly hope it does, as it is now the best possible result for the program and the university. As far as Georgetown's brand, I agree with you that it's important, but the problem with your description above is that it basically means that whenever we have a coaching job to fill, it needs to go to someone closely associated with the Thompsons or the university. Now, if there is someone qualified to do so, that's one thing, but it's very conceivable that whenever there is another coaching search (and hopefully that's a long time from now, because it means Ewing will likely have succeeded) that there will not be anybody fitting those parameters. What I don't quite understand is why people were totally fine with someone like Shaka Smart, who has absolutely no connection whatsoever to the university, but they were uncomfortable with people like Crean or Hurley? None of the three have any connection to Georgetown. Yes, I get that Smart is more of a hot name than Crean or Hurley, but still - there is no guarantee that Smart, or even Mike Brey, would have been good for the "brand" of basketball that is associated with Georgetown, yet it seems like many people would have been satisfied with them? I mean, let's say Billy Donovan wanted to come here, would people have turned him down because he didn't have the "brand" association of Ewing? The brand is all well and good, but ultimately, a coaching change is really about wanting to win. If all we cared about was Georgetown's brand and having an honorable man who represents the university well, we would have never fired JT3. We are moving on because we want to win.
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Post by professorhoya on Apr 7, 2017 10:36:54 GMT -5
This search was the first search I have gone through as a Georgetown fan. Â I wasn't following the team when Georgetown fired Esherick and hired JTIII, so this was my first exposure to it. Â Having now gone through this search, my view of the program has changed. Â Before the search, I viewed the Georgetown program as a top 15-20 basketball program. Â Like most other such programs, the fans had relatively high expectations but also realized that we are a step below the truly elite programs (Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, etc.). Â Georgetown paid big money for a coach and accordingly expected big results. Â Moreover, although the program celebrated its past (more than comparable institutions), it was not fully wedded to it. Â Thus, as the calls for JTIII to be removed grew louder, I figured we would do what other top 20 programs do -- we would hire a trusted, established name to bring a fresh set of eyes to the program and rebuild it. Â And spare me the notion that absolutely no established name would have come. Â Although I don't have personal knowledge of the search, I have every confidence that we could have gotten an established current college head coach to lead the Hoyas. Â Instead, we didn't go that direction. Â We went with a former player who isn't a natural fit for the position -- NBA assistant, no head coaching experience, no college coaching experience. Â And, for the most part, this Board supported that decision in full. Â Folks like me who didn't like this approach were largely dismissed, though we were a vocal minority. Â That has led me to a simple conclusion -- whatever I might want, Georgetown is firmly within the orbit of the Thompson family, and it will be for the foreseeable future. Â Although this is a loaded statement on this board, I'm trying to be neutral -- this is just a statement of where things are. Â The Thompson influence is not just because of JTII's personal exertion of control. Â It's because a core of the administrative leadership and a significant core of the fan base are more comfortable with that connection to the past than embracing the future. Â I saw this play out firsthand on this board. Â The vulnerabilities and weaknesses of other coaches were dissected thoroughly, while Ewing's own weaknesses were either downplayed or ignored outright. Â Indeed, most folks on here used his lack of a record as positive; it's really hard to prove that someone with no head coaching record can't be an effective head coach. Â Frankly, I think the administration at Georgetown had a similar conversation. Â They explored some other options, and then, like the fan base, quickly retreated to what made them comfortable, especially once it became clear that it would be difficult, and possibly messy, to obtain an established head coaching name. Â Simply put, a critical mass of the fan base and a critical mass of Georgetown's leadership want a program that remains interwoven with its past. Â Both bases of support are also deeply suspicious of change, of anything that seems to suggest a departure from the program's history. Â I think that's why you have a few die-hards on here defending even some of the most trivial things to do with Georgetown, like playing outdated music at games or affirmatively supporting a refusal to consider advanced analytics or other new tech that enhances the game for a lot of teams (personally, I'm fine with the outdated music because that's what I listen to anyway, but still). Â Thus, Patrick Ewing is the hire we have and the only type of hire that the program can currently support. Â There just isn't enough interest in the program to support the type of wholesale changes that plenty of us want. Â Now, again, I'm not trying to slam the Ewing hire. Â The time for arguing about that was before the hire was made, not after. Â But I think it's a mistake to act like this hire happened and now everyone just retreats to their proverbial corners. Â The administration was confronted with a clear choice -- choose the quintessential throwback hire, a person who speaks to the greatest days of the program's history, or take a chance on a face of the future. Â The school opted for the former choice, with the support of a majority of this board. Â I hope these folks are right, and we can win big with Ewing. Â For me, that'll be a pleasant surprise. But I will not support these same folks who promoted Ewing wildly on this board coming back in 2-3 years if we are struggling and begging for a change of direction. Â We had our chance for a change of direction this year. Â And we didn't take it. Â We chose to go with the "family" approach, whatever that means. Â Personally, I hope we win big. Â But if we lose big, I think that's the program we have chosen and the program the University deserves. Â Georgetown chose to go all-in on the past, and I think they have to take the good with the bad in that regard. Â I would not be willing to support any further changes, even if I believed they were necessary, unless I believed that the school and the fan base were actually ready to make them. Â There in probably lies the problem for you. You do not understand what the Georgetown and Thompson brand mean to the inner city and African Americans across the country during the 80s and 90s when the college basketball landscape was much different.
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jwp91
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,059
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Post by jwp91 on Apr 7, 2017 10:40:46 GMT -5
Georgetown basketball's brand has a tremendous amount of meaning - as much or more than any other Division 1 basketball school. We needed a search that at the minimum respected the brand. And that brand is about more than just winning. It includes a deflated basketball on the desk among many other brand attributes. You hire some guy like Bennet from St. Mary's and you basically flush the brand....even if you start winning games. Patrick Ewing embodies the brand more than anyone. And you know what? When you start evaluating his background and what he brings to the job, he is a phenomenal candidate. Is he 'can't miss?' No. But apparently, neither is Shaka. Just ask Texas. Does he have challenges? Yes, he has to become a killer recruiter and assemble a top notch team. He also has to adapt to the college game. But Patrick Freaking Ewing is going to walk into living rooms and work with AAU teams to try to land that top recruits in the country. It is worth an experiment to see if it works. Meanwhile, not a single person who has played with him or worked with him has said anything but glowing compliments about him. Let's get on board and excited about this hire. I will preface this by saying I am "on board" and I am cautiously optimistic that this hire could turn out well. I certainly hope it does, as it is now the best possible result for the program and the university. As far as Georgetown's brand, I agree with you that it's important, but the problem with your description above is that it basically means that whenever we have a coaching job to fill, it needs to go to someone closely associated with the Thompsons or the university. Now, if there is someone qualified to do so, that's one thing, but it's very conceivable that whenever there is another coaching search (and hopefully that's a long time from now, because it means Ewing will likely have succeeded) that there will not be anybody fitting those parameters. What I don't quite understand is why people were totally fine with someone like Shaka Smart, who has absolutely no connection whatsoever to the university, but they were uncomfortable with people like Crean or Hurley? None of the three have any connection to Georgetown. Yes, I get that Smart is more of a hot name than Crean or Hurley, but still - there is no guarantee that Smart, or even Mike Brey, would have been good for the "brand" of basketball that is associated with Georgetown, yet it seems like many people would have been satisfied with them? I mean, let's say Billy Donovan wanted to come here, would people have turned him down because he didn't have the "brand" association of Ewing? The brand is all well and good, but ultimately, a coaching change is really about wanting to win. If all we cared about was Georgetown's brand and having an honorable man who represents the university well, we would have never fired JT3. We are moving on because we want to win. Yes, at some point we may be forced to make a move away from the brand. That will be a sad day. But come on......you watch Shaka's team's play and you don't see more than a little bit of the JTjr style of play?!!!! JTIII is JTjr's son biologically, but their teams could not be more different.
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,465
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Post by TC on Apr 7, 2017 11:09:36 GMT -5
. But come on......you watch Shaka's team's play and you don't see more than a little bit of the JTjr style of play?!!!! JTIII is JTjr's son biologically, but their teams could not be more different. Right - JT3's teams were fun to watch. Watching a JT Jr offense was like going to the dentist.
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jwp91
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,059
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Post by jwp91 on Apr 7, 2017 11:26:31 GMT -5
. But come on......you watch Shaka's team's play and you don't see more than a little bit of the JTjr style of play?!!!! JTIII is JTjr's son biologically, but their teams could not be more different. Right - JT3's teams were fun to watch. Watching a JT Jr offense was like going to the dentist. I think that was why I was so excited about the beginning with JTIII. The end of the JTjr era was maddening on offense.
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miracles87
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by miracles87 on Apr 7, 2017 11:56:29 GMT -5
. But come on......you watch Shaka's team's play and you don't see more than a little bit of the JTjr style of play?!!!! JTIII is JTjr's son biologically, but their teams could not be more different. Right - JT3's teams were fun to watch. Watching a JT Jr offense was like going to the dentist. Well, watching a good Pops team was like watching the opposition going to the dentist, without the benfit of anesthesia. I do agree though, JTIII's good teams played some beautiful ball.
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SSHoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Apr 7, 2017 11:57:32 GMT -5
Right - JT3's teams were fun to watch. Watching a JT Jr offense was like going to the dentist. I think that was why I was so excited about the beginning with JTIII. The end of the JTjr era was maddening on offense. When the Princeton works, it can be beautiful. See January 21, 2006 v. Duke. When it doesn't work, ughhhh.
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bamahoya11
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,831
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Post by bamahoya11 on Apr 7, 2017 13:04:46 GMT -5
Cool story, brah. This isn't a knock on your lack of experience with the program, but I've been beating a similar drum for a while. The fact is, this is just a different job, you probably haven't been around long enough to appreciate that. GO back and read my posts since the 23rd, I practically called to a T what was going to go down, and I know nothing more than what I read and what I know from years of watching this. But, really, the main difference between you and I, it doesn't bother me. I don't want Tom Crean, who seems like a nice enough guy, but doesn't really have any idea what makes this place special. I don't want Danny Hurley, who is going to use the first Sweet 16 he makes to ask for a raise or bolt to some perceived better job. I don't want Mike Brey, because beyond breaking with the past it would be spitting in its face no matter how good a coach he is. If the fact that we didn't hire a name you liked or wanted has changed your ideas of the program, it says more about you than the program. If the fact that we didn't break from the past like you wanted us to bothers you, you really don't understand this University. So, if you want to go to a game and say We Are Georgetown, it had better Editeding mean something... I have no idea whether this hire will work out, but I certainly am willing to find out. Ditto... brah. I'll resist the temptation to go back and read several weeks of your posts, but I'm sure that they are all at least as illuminating and predictive as this one. What's a bit funny to me is that for me "We are Georgetown" has very little to do with the basketball program. I didn't play basketball. I knew the basketball players only tangentially on a personal level. Georgetown to me is the collection of memories that comes from my own time there. When I cheer it at the games, those are the things I am thinking of. I'll always love Georgetown, whether we have a good basketball program, bad basketball program, or no basketball program. As for basketball, I follow basketball because it's fun. The Georgetown program is fun for me because as a student it was exciting and built a sense of community. As an alum, it's a fun entry point to feel connected to the school. When it comes to Ewing, of course I'll give him a chance. I don't see that I have any choice in the matter. He's the choice for the program, and I support the program. Unlike most on this board, I haven't really been wowed by the hype or the media appearances. I'll be impressed when we put a winning program out on the floor. I also don't see a need for every post about Ewing to be completely, unabashedly positive. There are numerous threads full of that now. I also will not embrace the idea of "brand" that is circulated on this board to essentially mean "the 1980s." Instead, I just accept it as the way things are. That's ok, and perhaps, one day, it'll change.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 7, 2017 13:07:20 GMT -5
There in probably lies the problem for you. You do not understand what the Georgetown and Thompson brand mean to the inner city and African Americans across the country during the 80s and 90s when the college basketball landscape was much different. I don't disagree with you about the impact of the brand in the 1980s and 1990s, but those are times past and largely gone. And, I think it's mistake to try to recapture that because it was a special, unique thing that happened under circumstances that simply do not exist anymore. As you say, the college basketball landscape was much different. We cannot recapture that, even with Ewing at the helm, or even if keep a Thompson or someone associated with him as the head coach into perpetuity. To develop our brand, what we really need is to win games, Big East titles, and make it far into the NCAA tournament.
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bamahoya11
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,831
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Post by bamahoya11 on Apr 7, 2017 13:10:42 GMT -5
There in probably lies the problem for you. You do not understand what the Georgetown and Thompson brand mean to the inner city and African Americans across the country during the 80s and 90s when the college basketball landscape was much different. I don't disagree with you about the impact of the brand in the 1980s and 1990s, but those are times past and largely gone. And, I think it's mistake to try to recapture that because it was a special, unique thing that happened under circumstances that simply do not exist anymore. As you say, the college basketball landscape was much different. We cannot recapture that, even with Ewing at the helm, or even if keep a Thompson or someone associated with him as the head coach into perpetuity. To develop our brand, what we really need is to win games, Big East titles, and make it far into the NCAA tournament. I think I agree with this. To me, we aren't honoring JTII's legacy with the approach we have taken, but I get it's complicated and people feel differently. And it's very clear now where the administration sits on this issue. It just strikes me that we could still honor our past while being more open to new ideas and approaches.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,592
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Post by This Just In on Apr 7, 2017 13:18:16 GMT -5
There in probably lies the problem for you. You do not understand what the Georgetown and Thompson brand mean to the inner city and African Americans across the country during the 80s and 90s when the college basketball landscape was much different. I don't disagree with you about the impact of the brand in the 1980s and 1990s, but those are times past and largely gone. And, I think it's mistake to try to recapture that because it was a special, unique thing that happened under circumstances that simply do not exist anymore. As you say, the college basketball landscape was much different. We cannot recapture that, even with Ewing at the helm, or even if keep a Thompson or someone associated with him as the head coach into perpetuity. To develop our brand, what we really need is to win games, Big East titles, and make it far into the NCAA tournament. We have agreement. The nostalgia and media attention of Ewing will only get the program so far. Winning and accolades will take the brand even farther.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,592
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Post by This Just In on Apr 7, 2017 13:28:05 GMT -5
Interesting that around the 2:10 mark Patrick Ewing admits that John Thompson Jr. called him about applying for the job.
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madgesiq92
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,411
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Post by madgesiq92 on Apr 7, 2017 13:30:12 GMT -5
Cool story, brah. This isn't a knock on your lack of experience with the program, but I've been beating a similar drum for a while. The fact is, this is just a different job, you probably haven't been around long enough to appreciate that. GO back and read my posts since the 23rd, I practically called to a T what was going to go down, and I know nothing more than what I read and what I know from years of watching this. But, really, the main difference between you and I, it doesn't bother me. I don't want Tom Crean, who seems like a nice enough guy, but doesn't really have any idea what makes this place special. I don't want Danny Hurley, who is going to use the first Sweet 16 he makes to ask for a raise or bolt to some perceived better job. I don't want Mike Brey, because beyond breaking with the past it would be spitting in its face no matter how good a coach he is. If the fact that we didn't hire a name you liked or wanted has changed your ideas of the program, it says more about you than the program. If the fact that we didn't break from the past like you wanted us to bothers you, you really don't understand this University. So, if you want to go to a game and say We Are Georgetown, it had better Editeding mean something... I have no idea whether this hire will work out, but I certainly am willing to find out. Ditto... brah. I'll resist the temptation to go back and read several weeks of your posts, but I'm sure that they are all at least as illuminating and predictive as this one. What's a bit funny to me is that for me "We are Georgetown" has very little to do with the basketball program. I didn't play basketball. I knew the basketball players only tangentially on a personal level. Georgetown to me is the collection of memories that comes from my own time there. When I cheer it at the games, those are the things I am thinking of. I'll always love Georgetown, whether we have a good basketball program, bad basketball program, or no basketball program. As for basketball, I follow basketball because it's fun. The Georgetown program is fun for me because as a student it was exciting and built a sense of community. As an alum, it's a fun entry point to feel connected to the school. When it comes to Ewing, of course I'll give him a chance. I don't see that I have any choice in the matter. He's the choice for the program, and I support the program. Unlike most on this board, I haven't really been wowed by the hype or the media appearances. I'll be impressed when we put a winning program out on the floor. I also don't see a need for every post about Ewing to be completely, unabashedly positive. There are numerous threads full of that now. I also will not embrace the idea of "brand" that is circulated on this board to essentially mean "the 1980s." Instead, I just accept it as the way things are. That's ok, and perhaps, one day, it'll change. I would encourage you to learn more about the history of the program by ordering DFWs excellent "The Georgetown Basketball Vault: The History Of The Hoyas." Most of the reasons that the Roey Hadar's of the world are so misguided is that they don't have any understanding of the program's history. And as for your comment on not being around for the previous coaching search, let me tell you something, you didn't miss much. It was <crickets> compared to this. This site was quiet, Casual Hoya didn't exist, and there were maybe a dozen or so active posters that still had any interest in the program at that point, and nobody viewed the program as a top 15-20 program. The program was basically irrelevant. The job search barely attracted local attention from the media, nevermind national attention. The only national attention the program had gotten in the previous 5 years was negative. Those still paying attention were hoping that the program could be competitive again. And no top candidates were rumoured, just mediocre mid-major names like Fran Dunphy from Penn and Willis Wilson from Rice. Billy Packer, the most prominent NCAA basketball media figure at that time commented that "I see no reason why Georgetown basketball can ever be as successful as it was. There's no evidence of that. I think they need a superstar. Why would a superstar go there?" The fact that someone like yourself (and many others) viewed Georgetown as a top 15-20 program going into this job search, says a heck of a lot about what JT3 accomplished at Georgetown to reestablish the program. www.hoyabasketball.com/vault.htm
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Post by upstatesaxa on Apr 7, 2017 15:34:55 GMT -5
Sounds like the search may have been a farce as many suspected all along. The good thing is, hopefully by the time of the NEXT search, the whole cast (Pops, Tagliabue, Reed, and especially DeG) will be off the stage. I don't think "Hoya" = Latin for "job for life." This is roughly how things occured 1. JTIII gets fired 2. Search firm is hired 2. Feelers are sent out to Smart, Brey, Amaker and others 3. Patrick Ewing debates if he is interested in job after the firing as feelers are sent out 4. Ewing decides he is interested in the job and either himself or David Falk makes the phone call 5. Once Ewing expresses interest via the phone call, shortly after the search is closed A. Ewing appeases the President, A.D., & JTII who did not want to fire JTIII B. It keeps the coaching job within the Thompson Tree C. It appeases portions of the fan base and The Board by hearkening back to the glory years of the 80's D. Ewing has NBA coaching experience 6. Ewing is hired Seems to me that a truncated semi-search occurred BEFORE Korn Ferry was retained. I appreciate that you tag them both as "Step 2" Do we KNOW if anybody other than Ewing was actually interviewed? Not (just) felt out but actually met with, face to face? If it turns out that Patrick [Standard Disclaimer: always liked him, want him to succeed now, he is our coach and will receive my support] was the only candidate interviewed, then the athletic director basically lied when he said "After a thorough national search...." Thats what bugs me so much.... we pay so much attention to who our next small forward will be, how our coach coaches, if the "Princeton Offense" remains viable now, etc. Details. But to me, the big thing is whether the leadership of our university has a firm grip on the vision, values and standards to be expected of our most visible -- and formerly, most successful -- athletics program, or if they are instead (a) not knowledgeable enough; or (b) not interested enough; or (c) bedazzled by the past; or (d) enthrall to, or intimidated by the guy who used to run the program which guy, if Mike Wise's reporting is to be believed, was empowered to provide a "blessing" (veto?) on the choice of coach this time around. Add "not candid enough" to that list. And if that leadership doesn't have that firm grip, and/or runs a line of bull on us during these big shakeups, well the problem is a lot bigger than landing the next point guard. Could make you feel like this:
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Post by upstatesaxa on Apr 7, 2017 15:41:36 GMT -5
That has led me to a simple conclusion -- whatever I might want, Georgetown is firmly within the orbit of the Thompson family, and it will be for the foreseeable future. Although this is a loaded statement on this board, I'm trying to be neutral -- this is just a statement of where things are. The Thompson influence is not just because of JTII's personal exertion of control. It's because a core of the administrative leadership and a significant core of the fan base are more comfortable with that connection to the past than embracing the future. I saw this play out firsthand on this board. The vulnerabilities and weaknesses of other coaches were dissected thoroughly, while Ewing's own weaknesses were either downplayed or ignored outright. Indeed, most folks on here used his lack of a record as positive; it's really hard to prove that someone with no head coaching record can't be an effective head coach. Frankly, I think the administration at Georgetown had a similar conversation. They explored some other options, and then, like the fan base, quickly retreated to what made them comfortable, especially once it became clear that it would be difficult, and possibly messy, to obtain an established head coaching name. Simply put, a critical mass of the fan base and a critical mass of Georgetown's leadership want a program that remains interwoven with its past. Both bases of support are also deeply suspicious of change, of anything that seems to suggest a departure from the program's history. I think that's why you have a few die-hards on here defending even some of the most trivial things to do with Georgetown, like playing outdated music at games or affirmatively supporting a refusal to consider advanced analytics or other new tech that enhances the game for a lot of teams (personally, I'm fine with the outdated music because that's what I listen to anyway, but still). Thus, Patrick Ewing is the hire we have and the only type of hire that the program can currently support. There just isn't enough interest in the program to support the type of wholesale changes that plenty of us want. There in probably lies the problem for you. You do not understand what the Georgetown and Thompson brand mean to the inner city and African Americans across the country during the 80s and 90s when the college basketball landscape was much different. Instead of "mean" shouldn't your argument read "You do not understand what the Georgetown and Thompson brand meant to the inner city and African Americans..." and as transcendent a sporting/cultural moment as that was, what does it have to do with who we entrust the program/brand to for 2017-2027?
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