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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 18, 2016 1:12:34 GMT -5
Funny Dan! I also like the Arkansas State being 1-0 against us stat. That's really meaningful. I also like how that counts as an "amazing" stat these days. I posted it in a condensed format for the readers not Dan so give the appropriate credit. As for Ark St being 1-0 against us that is meaningful because we suck and don't ignore the rest of it. I meant it was funny that you plagiarized, nothing in your post was funny. And no I don't think most of the stats in that post are meaningful. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Nov 18, 2016 1:12:36 GMT -5
You have people that agree with your side of things writing kids off three games into their first season. If that's okay with you, fine. I have access to the block feature that I've never used because I prefer to think that I want to be exposed to differing opinions. It's a fact that the "fire JT3" crowd shows up when it fits their narrative and those of us that feel like the status quo is less susceptible to change, regardless of our level of outrage or lack thereof, do that to a much lesser degree. But ripping freshmen 3 games in is over the line. If you don't agree, we're not going to agree on much of anything. I haven't nor do I think the talk on this board is ripping players. The criticism tonight which I've read is about the coach. There may have been someone ripping players in isolation but that's not the tone so to try and bring that in is missing the sentiment of this board. There is a fundamental problem that this program can't get out of its own way now and is spiraling downward. This was a last chance after last year to right it and we are now worse off. Notice, also, that very few, if any, are absolving the coaching staff. Those of us that are perceived as "blindly" pro JT3 are not and, likely, never have been in terms of him as a coach. That part, somehow, conveniently is left out of the conversation when things don't go well on any given night. And there have plenty of them. For all of us. |
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Nov 18, 2016 1:12:37 GMT -5
I haven't nor do I think the talk on this board is ripping players. The criticism tonight which I've read is about the coach. There may have been someone ripping players in isolation but that's not the tone so to try and bring that in is missing the sentiment of this board. There is a fundamental problem that this program can't get out of its own way now and is spiraling downward. This was a last chance after last year to right it and we are now worse off. Then you're selectively reading the parts that support your beliefs. Reread. I'm in this thread and haven't seen anything ripping players. If that's happening somewhere else then point me to it as I'm not condoning the ripping of any players. I think we have talented players evidenced by their status on the recruiting trails. It's about development and coaching of these players. That's the issue. |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Nov 18, 2016 1:14:42 GMT -5
Then you're selectively reading the parts that support your beliefs. Reread. I'm in this thread and haven't seen anything ripping players. If that's happening somewhere else then point me to it as I'm not condoning the ripping of any players. I think we have talented players evidenced by their status on the recruiting trails. It's about development and coaching of these players. That's the issue. Maybe we just have different sensibilities then. When posters are relegating freshmen to "role players" 3 games in, that Editedes me off. |
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Post by hoya2x2010 on Nov 18, 2016 1:23:21 GMT -5
I'm in this thread and haven't seen anything ripping players. If that's happening somewhere else then point me to it as I'm not condoning the ripping of any players. I think we have talented players evidenced by their status on the recruiting trails. It's about development and coaching of these players. That's the issue. Maybe we just have different sensibilities then. When posters are relegating freshmen to "role players" 3 games in, that Editedes me off. Why? I've suggested that our freshman's role be more aligned with his strengths...sorry if this was disrepectful. Not my intention, but sometimes training wheels are needed for a bit. |
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Nov 18, 2016 1:23:32 GMT -5
I'm in this thread and haven't seen anything ripping players. If that's happening somewhere else then point me to it as I'm not condoning the ripping of any players. I think we have talented players evidenced by their status on the recruiting trails. It's about development and coaching of these players. That's the issue. Maybe we just have different sensibilities then. When posters are relegating freshmen to "role players" 3 games in, that Editedes me off. I know what you are talking about but look at my posts and my threads. I haven't come down on players nor have I seen that but I think you must be speaking to a thread I wasn't involved. To me it's a bigger issue on the program. Talking about a freshman under performing isn't relevant to the conversation that matters which is we continually under perform and nothing changes. |
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Nov 18, 2016 1:24:37 GMT -5
I posted it in a condensed format for the readers not Dan so give the appropriate credit. As for Ark St being 1-0 against us that is meaningful because we suck and don't ignore the rest of it. I meant it was funny that you plagiarized, nothing in your post was funny. And no I don't think most of the stats in that post are meaningful. What? |
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Nov 18, 2016 1:26:11 GMT -5
Maybe we just have different sensibilities then. When posters are relegating freshmen to "role players" 3 games in, that Editedes me off. I know what you are talking about but look at my posts and my threads. I haven't come down on players nor have I seen that but I think you must be speaking to a thread I wasn't involved. To me it's a bigger issue on the program. Talking about a freshman under performing isn't relevant to the conversation that matters which is we continually under perform and nothing changes. I neither said nor implied that you were the one doing that. If it came across that way, I apologize. |
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Nov 18, 2016 3:27:07 GMT -5
1) Defense. Our defense tonight was atrocious. We cannot stay in front of our guy. One of the biggest problems on defense is continuously Copeland. He's a pretty good offensive player, but his defense is really, really, really bad for somebody who plays 30+ minutes every game. I'm not even sure if he is pretty good on offense. |
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Nov 18, 2016 5:59:33 GMT -5
Arkansas State should be ashamed of its out of conference schedule. Play a real team.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Nov 18, 2016 7:53:44 GMT -5
While there's no excusing tonight's effort, I'm wondering whether the late game collapse against the Terps carried over into this game, and adversely affected the Hoyas. Again, not looking to make any excuse. . .but they looked numb in the first half. The game was over very early. When Pryor had the put back dunk and there was no carry-over, it was a wrap. Zero energy for the first half and it was over. The posters/poster wondering where the "apologists" were to make "excuses" after the loss is moronic at best. Generally speaking, the fire JT3 crowd are the ones that show up when it fits their narrative. The ones that realize that he's not getting fired 3 games into a season, regardless of their personal feelings about what has transpired, don't post when the Hoyas lose because it's pointless and there's plenty of blame, coaching staff included, to go around. I didn't read all of this thread but I read a good portion. Some of you need to check yourselves with regard to how you talk about a freshman 3 months and 3 games into a college career. Dust off your memory of yourself at that age and picture what it might be like reading some of this BS about yourself from older idiots that don't know you at all. You're Georgetown fans. Rip the coach all you want. Root for the kids. Capping expectations for a freshman after 3 preseason games? Jeez. I respect your opinion but you are undercutting yourself to think coaches shouldn't fairly be criticized and strongly for what is happening with this program. We aren't even an overly young team. And, no offense, I don't hear a lot of people criticizing the horrible play of the 3 freshman, so that's a bit of straw man. |
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Post by aleutianhoya on Nov 18, 2016 8:28:21 GMT -5
I have no problem, of course, with people venting, providing their opinions, etc, but can't we simply all agree on the following:
(1) Losing to that team -- at home -- in McDonough no less -- is simply unacceptable. It is unacceptable after a crushing loss. It would have been unacceptable after a big win. This wasn't Monmouth. This wasn't a team expected to win its conference (which, lets not forget, each of the teams we lost to in the NCAAs at least did). This wasn't truly a "mid major." At this stage, and after last season, the manner of the defeat is almost irrelevant. We need to win.
(2) Everyone is accountable. Obviously, the coaches can't do anything if the players miss wide open shots. Coach K -- with John Wooden beside him -- can't automatically make Moseley's long-range attempts go in. But even if you agree with strategic, personnel, recruiting decisions, etc. in a vacuum (and I know many don't!), ultimately the coaching staff is accountable for the performance on the court.
(3) The season isn't over....but it's close! We can't go to Maui and lose three games (or two games and beat only Chaminade). Obviously even that's not exactly true -- it's conceivable that things will gel later in the year and we have loads of opportunities to beat highly regarded teams. But the only acceptable outcome (in my view) this year is to make the NCAAs. And another couple of losses (even if to well regarded teams) in the next couple of weeks will make achieving that goal very difficult.
(4) Making a move now makes no sense. Sure, go ahead and do it if we lose the next ten games (or something) or if III loses the locker room. But there's no evidence of that. And having someone coach on an interim basis doesn't do us any good. III will have the opportunity to right this ship. But it's a limited opportunity for sure.
(5) It is simply true that we're relying on a bunch of new players (a freshman and three transfers are getting big minutes) and it is also a fact that one key player is injured and another has been suspended. But...it doesn't matter. We need to win. And win now. Looking at this season individually, that may not be wholly fair. But it's the situation this staff has brought on itself over the past several seasons.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Nov 18, 2016 8:44:09 GMT -5
It seems like most people want to address the coaching situation, which has about 4 other threads devoted to it. Instead, I want to focus on the actual game and what I saw, what the problems were, and where we might see improvement: (1) Defense. Our defense tonight was atrocious. We cannot stay in front of our guy. One of the biggest problems on defense is continuously Copeland. He's a pretty good offensive player, but his defense is really, really, really bad for somebody who plays 30+ minutes every game. In the Maryland game, there were several positions where he totally lost his guy leading to a three; at the end where Trimble when coast-to-coast he moved away from Trimble for some unknown reason. The same thing happened tonight. It's like we are playing 4 on 5 on defense. This is a problem. I don't think Copeland really deserves as much time as he is getting if he cannot improve his defense. (2) The press was an abysmal failure tonight. What is the purpose of the press if it yields no turnovers? There were several instances where Arkansas State inbound passed to a corner, yet the second closest defender didn't even try to trap. I realize you cannot trap on every possession but we barely did it, unlike in the USC Upstate game. I know the 1980s fans love pressing, but this team is not doing it effectively. So again, what's the purpose? (3) Jagan Mosely totally killed us on offense tonight. 60 Offensive efficiency rating. 0-6 on threes. Three turnovers. 4 fouls. Yikes. I did like his defense, and I think he can develop into a better player, but he's not there yet. (4) For all we've heard about Pryor, he seems like a pretty good defender and a good spot up shooter, and that's it. Where's the aggression? I know he's been criticized as a ball-hog by some, but he's not really attacking the rim as much as I expected based on descriptions from Kenner. (5) Govan had a good game overall, and Peak was pretty good too. Right now, they are our best two players. We miss Derrickson. I am hoping he didn't play tonight to rest up for Maui, rather than because he's injured worse than he was a few days ago. Overall, we just aren't very good right now. Peak and Govan have been solid. The much-celebrated newcomer guard trio of Mosely, Mulmore, and Pryor really hasn't shown much outside the first game when Pryor was on fire. They are attacking more than last year, which yields more free throws for us, so that's a good thing. And outside of USC Upstate the press hasn't been effective. So it's not surprising we aren't doing better. How do we get better? The defense needs to get better. Copeland either needs to improve substantially or play less. He's just too much of a defensive liability. We need to work better together and stay in front of opponents. On offense, I think we need to work better at getting Pryor some open threes and kick-outs. There were a few times tonight where we had guys open on the perimeter, but nobody was looking for them. Lastly, and this is on the coaches and players, we need to play smarter. At this point, my goal is to get this team into the NCAA tournament. Very much a possibility, but not unless we improve on the current performance. I just wanted to put this post back on top. There are plenty of other threads to talk about the coaching problems. I agree with almost everything in this post and especially agree that: 1. Ike is a liability out there with his lack of defense. It won't happen but I would sit him. 2. The press is useless. It is almost like JTIII is thinking that the consensus is that the team should press, so let's just throw out a press. It is useless if it isn't employed effectively. I was unable to watch this game, but I assume the press was similar to the UMD game. Just a token press with no trapping, which produced no real benefit. Teach it correctly or scrap it. 3. I don't understand how this team can be so bad defensively. Complete lack of fundamentals. That's on the coaching. |
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Nov 18, 2016 8:48:43 GMT -5
They just mentioned this loss on the morning sports talk show in NYC. It was so bad that it's making news outside its local market at a time when almost no one gives one iota of a crap about college basketball. This is worst loss in a long long time.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Nov 18, 2016 9:51:43 GMT -5
Start Kaleb, don't start Ike.
Are Pryor and the Establishment guys not on the same page?
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Nov 18, 2016 10:15:20 GMT -5
It seems like most people want to address the coaching situation, which has about 4 other threads devoted to it. Instead, I want to focus on the actual game and what I saw, what the problems were, and where we might see improvement: (1) Defense. Our defense tonight was atrocious. We cannot stay in front of our guy. One of the biggest problems on defense is continuously Copeland. He's a pretty good offensive player, but his defense is really, really, really bad for somebody who plays 30+ minutes every game. In the Maryland game, there were several positions where he totally lost his guy leading to a three; at the end where Trimble when coast-to-coast he moved away from Trimble for some unknown reason. The same thing happened tonight. It's like we are playing 4 on 5 on defense. This is a problem. I don't think Copeland really deserves as much time as he is getting if he cannot improve his defense. (2) The press was an abysmal failure tonight. What is the purpose of the press if it yields no turnovers? There were several instances where Arkansas State inbound passed to a corner, yet the second closest defender didn't even try to trap. I realize you cannot trap on every possession but we barely did it, unlike in the USC Upstate game. I know the 1980s fans love pressing, but this team is not doing it effectively. So again, what's the purpose? (3) Jagan Mosely totally killed us on offense tonight. 60 Offensive efficiency rating. 0-6 on threes. Three turnovers. 4 fouls. Yikes. I did like his defense, and I think he can develop into a better player, but he's not there yet. (4) For all we've heard about Pryor, he seems like a pretty good defender and a good spot up shooter, and that's it. Where's the aggression? I know he's been criticized as a ball-hog by some, but he's not really attacking the rim as much as I expected based on descriptions from Kenner. (5) Govan had a good game overall, and Peak was pretty good too. Right now, they are our best two players. We miss Derrickson. I am hoping he didn't play tonight to rest up for Maui, rather than because he's injured worse than he was a few days ago. Overall, we just aren't very good right now. Peak and Govan have been solid. The much-celebrated newcomer guard trio of Mosely, Mulmore, and Pryor really hasn't shown much outside the first game when Pryor was on fire. They are attacking more than last year, which yields more free throws for us, so that's a good thing. And outside of USC Upstate the press hasn't been effective. So it's not surprising we aren't doing better. How do we get better? The defense needs to get better. Copeland either needs to improve substantially or play less. He's just too much of a defensive liability. We need to work better together and stay in front of opponents. On offense, I think we need to work better at getting Pryor some open threes and kick-outs. There were a few times tonight where we had guys open on the perimeter, but nobody was looking for them. Lastly, and this is on the coaches and players, we need to play smarter. At this point, my goal is to get this team into the NCAA tournament. Very much a possibility, but not unless we improve on the current performance. I just wanted to put this post back on top. There are plenty of other threads to talk about the coaching problems. I agree with almost everything in this post and especially agree that: 1. Ike is a liability out there with his lack of defense. It won't happen but I would sit him. 2. The press is useless. It is almost like JTIII is thinking that the consensus is that the team should press, so let's just throw out a press. It is useless if it isn't employed effectively. I was unable to watch this game, but I assume the press was similar to the UMD game. Just a token press with no trapping, which produced no real benefit. Teach it correctly or scrap it. 3. I don't understand how this team can be so bad defensively. Complete lack of fundamentals. That's on the coaching. I will give JT3 this--the defense is turning people over now. The Hoyas are 15th overall in turnover percentage, and forced Maryland into turnovers in 20% of their possessions, and forced Arkansas St. into turnovers in 25.6% of their possessions. Of course, if you're giving up open shots on the 75-80% of possessions you don't get a turnover, you're not going to be successful. |
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guru
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Post by guru on Nov 18, 2016 10:21:44 GMT -5
I just wanted to put this post back on top. There are plenty of other threads to talk about the coaching problems. I agree with almost everything in this post and especially agree that: 1. Ike is a liability out there with his lack of defense. It won't happen but I would sit him. 2. The press is useless. It is almost like JTIII is thinking that the consensus is that the team should press, so let's just throw out a press. It is useless if it isn't employed effectively. I was unable to watch this game, but I assume the press was similar to the UMD game. Just a token press with no trapping, which produced no real benefit. Teach it correctly or scrap it. 3. I don't understand how this team can be so bad defensively. Complete lack of fundamentals. That's on the coaching. I will give JT3 this--the defense is turning people over now. The Hoyas are 15th overall in turnover percentage, and forced Maryland into turnovers in 20% of their possessions, and forced Arkansas St. into turnovers in 25.6% of their possessions. Of course, if you're giving up open shots on the 75-80% of possessions you don't get a turnover, you're not going to be successful. The open shots are infuriating and not new. I've been banging the drum on our inability to defend the 3 for years (and now we appear to be unable to defend anything, ugh). The end of the Maryland game was a train wreck, but had Maryland hit any decent percentage of their open shots in that game we would not have had any sort of lead to blow. The main problem with this team in recent seasons has been defense. As in, they play none. I don't see that changing suddenly now. We are in for a very long season. Hopefully if that's the case, it will lead to changes all around. |
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HoyaSC
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Post by HoyaSC on Nov 20, 2016 8:57:36 GMT -5
After several days to think about it, the most troubling thing for me is that we lost in McDonough. And there were empty seats in McDonough. I was in college when we played UTEP in McDonough in the NIT. That game is still one of my fondest sports memories for the atmosphere, crowd, every part of it was what makes basketball...... fun.
Even a bad Hoyas team should be nearly invincible in McDonough--against good competition. But to see the life drained out of it all. No fun. I hate this for the current students. GU already has problems with alumni loyalty, but the basketball team is something that helps keep that connection to the school. If the students aren't forming these bonds and making those memories that lots of us middle-aged+ alums are fortunate to have, it will have ramifications for the university beyond our basketball team.
There's a reason that schools are now firing coaches midseason after terrible losses. It prevents the middling coach from doing just enough to hang on for another season. That's why LSU pulled the trigger on Les Miles this year. That's why Miami fired Al Golden. I grew up in and live in South Carolina and have always been a big Clemson fan. Tommy Bowden always did just enough to save his job by the end of the year after early, inexplicable losses. Firing him midseason and promoting Dabo Swinney was easily the best decision the school ever made. LSU probably has Jimbo Fisher waiting in the wings. I don't know if there's a Dabo lurking on our bench (maybe J-Wall one day?). But getting marginally better and making the NIT this season might be a truly bad thing long-term.
I think with Nova's title, the new BE still has a limited window to maintain its position as a top basketball conference, but it won't happen without Georgetown. If we fail, the conference is likely to fail, and then our program is in a systemic hole from which we might not recover, no matter the coach.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Nov 20, 2016 19:39:30 GMT -5
Arkansas State definitely had a good week in taking down the Hoyas in Bball and beating #25 football power (?) Troy yesterday. They went from unknown to giant killer.   |
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Nov 20, 2016 19:41:10 GMT -5
Arkansas State definitely had a good week in taking down the Hoyas in Bball and beating #25 football power (?) Troy yesterday. They went from unknown to giant killer. We have that effect on teams. |
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