Brexit

[kchoya]

Kind of weird when Lindsay Lohan is one of the leading commentators on a matter of global importance.

[hoyainspirit]

Appears many didn't understand what they were voting for...

[Deleted]

Well, if you're not sure what it is, it's probably safer to vote against it. Right?

What's next? Departugal? Czechout? Outstria? Italeave? Fruckoff?

[DallasHoya]

Jun 24, 2016 14:13:07 GMT -5 @cam said:

Well, if you're not sure what it is, it's probably safer to vote against it. Right?

What's next? Departugal? Czechout? Outstria? Italeave? Fruckoff?

TEXIT

[GUMBA]

Not to mention Swetreat and Exodutch...

[hoyainspirit]

Donald Trump is a Dummy. And some people will vote for this fool? I feel sorry for the fools who will vote for this fool. Actually, such fools frighten me as much as Trump does.

Scotland voted 62%-38% Remain.

[tashoya]

Jun 25, 2016 10:16:39 GMT -5 hoyainspirit said:

Donald Trump is a Dummy. And some people will vote for this fool? I feel sorry for the fools who will vote for this fool. Actually, such fools frighten me as much as Trump does.

Scotland voted 62%-38% Remain.

I can only assume he's visiting Northern Ireland next? I hope he walks down the wrong alley. That can change one's perspective in a hurry.

[Nevada Hoya]

And isn't his Scottish golf course losing millions?!

[EasyEd]

Trump should have put it on his private server so he could deny it later with no trace.

[prhoya]

Jun 25, 2016 13:14:19 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

Trump should have put it on his private server so he could deny it later with no trace.

Don't worry, that woulldn't stop him from denying it.

[prhoya]

Jun 25, 2016 11:31:01 GMT -5 Nevada Hoya said:

And isn't his Scottish golf course losing millions?!

He'll deny that too.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

This actually really worries me. And beyond just the economic impact the move in Britain has and will have on the US. But the fact that some of the same techniques that Trump is using worked in the UK and lead to this horrible result makes me completely rethink my idea that Trump has no chance to actually win. I'm actually now very scared that Trump will win and set the country back terribly. The one thing that makes me hopeful is one of the things I am normally annoyed by and that's the electoral college. I'm now thinking there's a very good chance that Trump wins the popular vote, but luckily I'm hoping that the electoral college will deny him the white house despite that.

[tashoya]

Jun 25, 2016 18:42:48 GMT -5 HoyaSinceBirth said:

This actually really worries me. And beyond just the economic impact the move in Britain has and will have on the US. But the fact that some of the same techniques that Trump is using worked in the UK and lead to this horrible result makes me completely rethink my idea that Trump has no chance to actually win. I'm actually now very scared that Trump will win and set the country back terribly. The one thing that makes me hopeful is one of the things I am normally annoyed by and that's the electoral college. I'm now thinking there's a very good chance that Trump wins the popular vote, but luckily I'm hoping that the electoral college will deny him the white house despite that.

I agree with all of this.

I heard a part of a broadcast recently (I can't recall which. It was probably a random podcast.) that if one views the Trump/Hillary thing from the perspective that it takes a Trump to make a Hillary seem palatable or, at the least, preferable, it makes a bit more sense. It's possible that Trump and only Trump that makes Hillary electable. Obviously, if Trump wins, that viewpoint holds less sway but, for now, it rings true for me.

[kchoya]

Jun 25, 2016 18:42:48 GMT -5 HoyaSinceBirth said:

This actually really worries me. And beyond just the economic impact the move in Britain has and will have on the US. But the fact that some of the same techniques that Trump is using worked in the UK and lead to this horrible result makes me completely rethink my idea that Trump has no chance to actually win. I'm actually now very scared that Trump will win and set the country back terribly. The one thing that makes me hopeful is one of the things I am normally annoyed by and that's the electoral college. I'm now thinking there's a very good chance that Trump wins the popular vote, but luckily I'm hoping that the electoral college will deny him the white house despite that.

The issue that has bothered me most with Brexit is the chorus of those in favor of "Remain" coming out to denigrate those that voted to leave the EU as dimwits who didn't understand what they were voting for, and who were to stupid to follow the "experts" that advised against leaving the EU. It's a strain that we hear from the left in this country, that the supporters of Trump are simply a bunch of racist, bigoted, sexist bumpkins and, to piggyback off of HSB's post, the enlightened electoral college should save the country from the unwashed masses. Matt Taibbi had a good piece on this phenomenon:

Rolling Stone: The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened

And you have to have a cast-iron head to not grasp that saying stuff like this out loud is part of what inspires populations to movements like Brexit or the Trump campaign in the first place.

Were I British, I'd probably have voted to Remain. But it's not hard to understand being Editeded off at being subject to unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels. Nor is it hard to imagine the post-Brexit backlash confirming every suspicion you might have about the people who run the EU.

Imagine having pundits and professors suggest you should have your voting rights curtailed because you voted Leave. Now imagine these same people are calling voters like you "children," and castigating you for being insufficiently appreciative of, say, the joys of submitting to a European Supreme Court that claims primacy over the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

Jun 27, 2016 16:30:11 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Jun 25, 2016 18:42:48 GMT -5 HoyaSinceBirth said:

This actually really worries me. And beyond just the economic impact the move in Britain has and will have on the US. But the fact that some of the same techniques that Trump is using worked in the UK and lead to this horrible result makes me completely rethink my idea that Trump has no chance to actually win. I'm actually now very scared that Trump will win and set the country back terribly. The one thing that makes me hopeful is one of the things I am normally annoyed by and that's the electoral college. I'm now thinking there's a very good chance that Trump wins the popular vote, but luckily I'm hoping that the electoral college will deny him the white house despite that.

The issue that has bothered me most with Brexit is the chorus of those in favor of "Remain" coming out to denigrate those that voted to leave the EU as dimwits who didn't understand what they were voting for, and who were to stupid to follow the "experts" that advised against leaving the EU. It's a strain that we hear from the left in this country, that the supporters of Trump are simply a bunch of racist, bigoted, sexist bumpkins and, to piggyback off of HSB's post, the enlightened electoral college should save the country from the unwashed masses. Matt Taibbi had a good piece on this phenomenon:

Rolling Stone: The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened

And you have to have a cast-iron head to not grasp that saying stuff like this out loud is part of what inspires populations to movements like Brexit or the Trump campaign in the first place.

Were I British, I'd probably have voted to Remain. But it's not hard to understand being Editeded off at being subject to unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels. Nor is it hard to imagine the post-Brexit backlash confirming every suspicion you might have about the people who run the EU.

Imagine having pundits and professors suggest you should have your voting rights curtailed because you voted Leave. Now imagine these same people are calling voters like you "children," and castigating you for being insufficiently appreciative of, say, the joys of submitting to a European Supreme Court that claims primacy over the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights.

If the shoe fits...

[CTHoya08]

I'm somewhere between HSB and kc on this one. There certainly are very legitimate reasons for UK voters to have wanted to leave the EU, but the campaign that got it done (at least as reported in the US media) seemed to be premised not on those reasons, but instead on xenophobia.

[Deleted]

Jun 27, 2016 16:30:11 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Jun 25, 2016 18:42:48 GMT -5 HoyaSinceBirth said:

This actually really worries me. And beyond just the economic impact the move in Britain has and will have on the US. But the fact that some of the same techniques that Trump is using worked in the UK and lead to this horrible result makes me completely rethink my idea that Trump has no chance to actually win. I'm actually now very scared that Trump will win and set the country back terribly. The one thing that makes me hopeful is one of the things I am normally annoyed by and that's the electoral college. I'm now thinking there's a very good chance that Trump wins the popular vote, but luckily I'm hoping that the electoral college will deny him the white house despite that.

The issue that has bothered me most with Brexit is the chorus of those in favor of "Remain" coming out to denigrate those that voted to leave the EU as dimwits who didn't understand what they were voting for, and who were to stupid to follow the "experts" that advised against leaving the EU. It's a strain that we hear from the left in this country, that the supporters of Trump are simply a bunch of racist, bigoted, sexist bumpkins and, to piggyback off of HSB's post, the enlightened electoral college should save the country from the unwashed masses. Matt Taibbi had a good piece on this phenomenon:

Rolling Stone: The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened

And you have to have a cast-iron head to not grasp that saying stuff like this out loud is part of what inspires populations to movements like Brexit or the Trump campaign in the first place.

Were I British, I'd probably have voted to Remain. But it's not hard to understand being Editeded off at being subject to unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels. Nor is it hard to imagine the post-Brexit backlash confirming every suspicion you might have about the people who run the EU.

Imagine having pundits and professors suggest you should have your voting rights curtailed because you voted Leave. Now imagine these same people are calling voters like you "children," and castigating you for being insufficiently appreciative of, say, the joys of submitting to a European Supreme Court that claims primacy over the Magna Carta and the Bill of Rights.

But doesn't the Google data quoted above make you wonder how many people actually didn't know what they were voting for (or against?)

Maybe they're not dimwits - but if you don't bother to educate yourself about the implications of your vote until after you vote, that's a dimwit move:

www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/25/after-residents-voted-for-brexit-this-british-county-realized-the-e-u-might-stop-sending-them-money/

[TC]

Jun 27, 2016 16:30:11 GMT -5 kchoya said:

It's a strain that we hear from the left in this country, that the supporters of Trump are simply a bunch of racist, bigoted, sexist bumpkins and, to piggyback off of HSB's post, the enlightened electoral college should save the country from the unwashed masses.

I know that this isn't your main point, but this sentence is absolute nonsense. Most of the arguments from the "left in this country" are for a national popular vote, which would give non-battleground states more power and enfranchise the District of Columbia. Now granted, this isn't rooted in populist ideology but naked political advantage, but so is the Republican opposition to national popular vote and support for voter ID. The only states to sign on to a national popular vote initiative are blue states :

fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/why-a-plan-to-circumvent-the-electoral-college-is-probably-doomed/

HSB is completely wrong - Trump is down 12 in the polls and doesn't stand much of a shot of winning, but he stands a much better chance at somehow winning the electoral college than he does of a direct popular vote. Republicans have won the popular vote once in the last 20 years (and you can make the argument that it only happened because of an election where the electoral college bailed them out vs. the popular vote).

That said, we have tons of checks on direct democracy built into our system for exactly the types of reasons that Andrew Sullivan argues for.

[tgo]

Jun 28, 2016 7:36:34 GMT -5 @cam said:

Jun 27, 2016 16:30:11 GMT -5 kchoya said:

The issue that has bothered me most with Brexit is the chorus of those in favor of "Remain" coming out to denigrate those that voted to leave the EU as dimwits who didn't understand what they were voting for, and who were to stupid to follow the "experts" that advised against leaving the EU. It's a strain that we hear from the left in this country, that the supporters of Trump are simply a bunch of racist, bigoted, sexist bumpkins and, to piggyback off of HSB's post, the enlightened electoral college should save the country from the unwashed masses. Matt Taibbi had a good piece on this phenomenon:

Rolling Stone: The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened

But doesn't the Google data quoted above make you wonder how many people actually didn't know what they were voting for (or against?)

Maybe they're not dimwits - but if you don't bother to educate yourself about the implications of your vote until after you vote, that's a dimwit move:

www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/25/after-residents-voted-for-brexit-this-british-county-realized-the-e-u-might-stop-sending-them-money/

I find it amusing and yet also a depressing example of the elitism that has already been mentioned that because this was googled a lot, leftists immediately say - "oh, look at the idiots, now they are looking into what they voted on because none of them could have possibly known what they were doing before they voted since they didn't do what we told them they should do" - when it seems a lot more likely to me that those who voted to remain now are looking in to what it means to leave, doesn't mean their vote wasn't fully informed either, they surely had 1 or 2 good reasons they thought instructed their vote and they pulled the lever and now that they lost they want to know what is going to happen.

[tgo]

Jun 28, 2016 7:40:32 GMT -5 TC said:

Jun 27, 2016 16:30:11 GMT -5 kchoya said:

It's a strain that we hear from the left in this country, that the supporters of Trump are simply a bunch of racist, bigoted, sexist bumpkins and, to piggyback off of HSB's post, the enlightened electoral college should save the country from the unwashed masses.

I know that this isn't your main point, but this sentence is absolute nonsense. Most of the arguments from the "left in this country" are for a national popular vote, which would give non-battleground states more power and enfranchise the District of Columbia. Now granted, this isn't rooted in populist ideology but naked political advantage, but so is the Republican opposition to national popular vote and support for voter ID. The only states to sign on to a national popular vote initiative are blue states :

fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/why-a-plan-to-circumvent-the-electoral-college-is-probably-doomed/

HSB is completely wrong - Trump is down 12 in the polls and doesn't stand much of a shot of winning, but he stands a much better chance at somehow winning the electoral college than he does of a direct popular vote. Republicans have won the popular vote once in the last 20 years (and you can make the argument that it only happened because of an election where the electoral college bailed them out vs. the popular vote).

That said, we have tons of checks on direct democracy built into our system for exactly the types of reasons that Andrew Sullivan argues for.

He was directly referencing the poster who was saying that the electoral college would bail us out.

As for your comments on instituting direct democracy for presidential elections, it certainly would give the district a bunch of power and all the population centers but I cant imagine in what possible scenario it would give non-battle ground states more power. Going to a popular vote would mean candidates would just go from one big city to the next and wouldn't bother even setting up a campaign office in most states. Why spend money to get some of the voters in Wyoming to show up to vote for you when spending that money and time in Brooklyn has the potential to get you so many more.

There are about 85 million people living in the top ten metro areas combined. Last election it took about 60 or 65 million to get elected. There is no way that turn out doesnt drop in the 30-40 states that would be completely ignored by the presidential campaigns but maybe that is off set by higher turnout in the big cities so assume you will still need 60 million votes, you could do that in 10 cities. Maybe you extend your campaign beyond the top ten to top 20 cities, if you get 60% of them then you dont need any votes from the rest of the country and of course you will still get some votes in those other places.