Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Nov 13, 2015 12:03:18 GMT -5
Again, tell me how any student is negatively impacted by the name? Unlike you apparently, I don't presume to know how students are impacted by anything. However, I am open to listening to them. It may be that you are correct. It may be that you are not. But how do you conclude so confidently without discussion?
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Post by aleutianhoya on Nov 13, 2015 12:04:34 GMT -5
I strongly believe that the name of the building should change. We shouldn't honor a member of our community who behaved so atrociously--even under the standards of that time, it was viewed as horrible by many. Slavery remains the original sin of our country and has been whitewashed by too many for too long. Nevertheless, I am completely at a loss as to why this protest is necessary. The University is clearly moving in this direction through the Committee set up by DeGioia. Is this really all about it "not moving fast enough"? Or, as I suspect, did all of those rallies at other campuses just look like a lot of fun? I am fine holding protests against racism, which continues to be a major problem in our society, but let's keep it at that, rather than trying to imagine problems or lend hyperbolism to problems already being addressed. Protests are fine and good, but Georgetown needs to ensure that they don't drown out the free speech of others. The Yale fiasco is deeply embarrassing for that institution, and I hope we see nothing of that sort at Georgetown. There's lots of ways to deal with this particular issue. You can change the name, and I'd have no problem with that. I'd also have no problem if the decision is made to keep the name but install a very prominent display at the entrance of the building that discusses the guy (good, bad, and ugly) and Georgetown's part in an atrocious part of our country's history. Obviously, you could change the name AND have a display. I don't know a lot about him; it may be that he did a ton of very good things and one really bad thing. Or maybe not. But that plays into it. In any event, I have no problem with students seeking this specific change -- it seems like a patently reasonable thing to discuss, particularly on a college campus. Can we quibble about the manner in which they're doing it? Sure.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Nov 13, 2015 12:05:32 GMT -5
And KC, if it's silly to push for the name change because it doesn't matter, isn't it even sillier to try to prevent it? Not at all. If you don't push back against this idiocy, then you end up with situations like Mizzou, where a longtime, very popular professor was pushed to resign for no legitimate reason when he got caught up in the feed frenzy taking place in Columbia.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Nov 13, 2015 12:08:47 GMT -5
Again, tell me how any student is negatively impacted by the name? Unlike you apparently, I don't presume to know how students are impacted by anything. However, I am open to listening to them. It may be that you are correct. It may be that you are not. But how do you conclude so confidently without discussion? I've read what they've said, and they haven't given one example of how they're negatively impacted. I presume you're an intelligent college graduate. In your college classes, I presume you were asked to think of potential scenarios or come up with hypotheticals. Tell me, can you conjure up one legitimate negative impact created by the name of that building?
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Nov 13, 2015 12:09:27 GMT -5
If you don't push back against this idiocy, then you end up with situations like Mizzou, where a longtime, very popular professor was pushed to resign for no legitimate reason when he got caught up in the feed frenzy taking place in Columbia. I'd say that's a pretty good pitch for the senselessly reactionary point of view.
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Post by hilltopper2000 on Nov 13, 2015 12:09:35 GMT -5
Yes, I attended Georgetown for 7 years. And I was aware of the issue in that Hoya article. (I can't remember how exactly, but I think Curran's earlier volume on Georgetown addressed it.) My experience was not impacted at all. And my regular visits to campus aren't impacted either. I similarly am not impacted and was not impacted directly by 99% of what happens at the institution. But as an alumnus I have a stake in place and care deeply about it. I believe that Georgetown should not honor members of its community who engaged in major human rights violations. I don't think this is a radical proposition.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 13, 2015 12:15:22 GMT -5
Two things : this was an interesting piece : philodemicsociety.org/2015/10/08/resolved-georgetown-should-rename-mulledy-hall/Second, if the University is going to strip naming rights from people based on SEC investigations for leaking info to close family (http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2013/03/scott-k-ginsburg-renowned-seller-of-exotic-cars-sues-georgetown-university-to-retrive-7-5-million-in-donations.html/), a slave trader probably isn't the best person to name a building after. Following Areen's logic that naming matters, at least in terms of publicity, this is a slam dunk.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Nov 13, 2015 12:16:30 GMT -5
I presume you're an intelligent college graduate. In your college classes, I presume you were asked to think of potential scenarios or come up with hypotheticals. Tell me, can you conjure up one legitimate negative impact created by the name of that building? I grew up blocks from a statue honoring Jefferson Davis in a city that was more than 50% African American. It's not that hard for me to imagine how the past can haunt those living amongst memorials to a troubling past - especially those whose ancestors were directly affected by it. It was not so long ago.
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blueeagle
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Post by blueeagle on Nov 13, 2015 12:20:56 GMT -5
Just for the sake of discussion, do you not think that the actions of the students at Georgetown are reactionary and derivative? If not, then you are welcome to state your reasons if you want.
I don't think I called anyone else's thoughts on this "hot" topic lame. Using such language implies that your are invalidating someone else's opinion rather than engaging them in civil discourse.
Words like childish or uninformed or idiots have no place in an intelligent discussion. Though my four year old retorted by saying "butt."
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quickplay
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Post by quickplay on Nov 13, 2015 12:25:13 GMT -5
I do find it strange that you take issue with my use of the word ‘lame’ while you casually dismiss and delegitimize the perspectives of the Georgetown students. I’m not sure what you even mean by saying it’s ‘derivative’ – I’m unaware of some principle of protest that requires the protest to be a unique, spontaneous creation. In fact, linked protest movements tend to be more successful.
As far as it being reactionary – well, again, what does that mean? It’s just a quick dismissal with no substance there.
This whole thread comes across as a knee-jerk reaction to the concept over overly political correct speech and then trying to figure out how this situation fits the mold.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Nov 13, 2015 12:25:20 GMT -5
I don't think it is childish at all. Students need to learn that they don't get to demand things when their extraordinarily sensitive sensibilities get rattled....on someone else's behalf where nothing happened there either. Giving in to what THEY call demands for a non-issue on another campus validates their absurd idea that when they are offended they call the shots sans civil discussion. Starve this beast before it destroys the entire concept of free speech or rigorous discourse on a goddamn college campus of all places. Why don't students get to demand things from an institution that they are part of? Why shouldn't they seek to shape the present and future of that institution? Why do you feel such confidence in qualifying their concerns as a "non-issue"? Seems like if you shut down their concerns as illegitimate from the get go without discussion you risk being no better than what you are criticizing. I mean on some level the tone of your reaction -- which parallels that of many out in the media -- only provides some credence to the students' perspective. College is a time and place to learn how to persuade. How to think, how mount arguments you disagree with- maybe even find offensive. It is also a time when there should be some semblance of the real world at work because they are about to be thrown into it. I can't think of a bigger threat to the concept of higher education than the push by students in many of these protests to seek "demands" over dialogue. I believe you will see just about exactly those words in the Hoya article. Or the Yale student screamed at her house master that she had no interest in an intellectual space, she demanded a safe space instead to protect her from imagined offenses. This infantilization of our campuses must stop. When the student concerns are valid, and only when they are, they should be engaged in dialogues. When they appropriate someone else's cause and explicitly state they intend to demand acquiescence they must be disabused of the notion that such action, bullying by any other name, will not be acquiesced.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Nov 13, 2015 12:33:47 GMT -5
Just for the sake of discussion, do you not think that the actions of the students at Georgetown are reactionary and derivative? If not, then you are welcome to state your reasons if you want. I don't think I called anyone else's thoughts on this "hot" topic lame. Using such language implies that your are invalidating someone else's opinion rather than engaging them in civil discourse. Words like childish or uninformed or idiots have no place in an intelligent discussion. Though my four year old retorted by saying "butt." I don't think reactionary means what you think it means. From my perspective, I'm sure you are right that there are some students -- perhaps many -- who may have joined these protests for less than pure motivations. But that alone does not negate the validity of their stated grievances. The boulevards of history are lined with plenty of toadies and fame seekers manning the barricades on both sides of all issues. That shouldn't prevent us from at least considering whether a grievance is real or a demand is reasonable.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 13, 2015 12:35:34 GMT -5
I can't think of a bigger threat to the concept of higher education than the push by students in many of these protests to seek "demands" over dialogue. I believe you will see just about exactly those words in the Hoya article. Or the Yale student screamed at her house master that she had no interest in an intellectual space, she demanded a safe space instead to protect her from imagined offenses. Could you point out what you're referencing here? The only thing I see is the woman who is on that committee basically saying she wants some action. I don't think that relates whatsoever to Yale.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Nov 13, 2015 12:38:55 GMT -5
College is a time and place to learn how to persuade. How to think, how mount arguments you disagree with- maybe even find offensive. It is also a time when there should be some semblance of the real world at work because they are about to be thrown into it. I can't think of a bigger threat to the concept of higher education than the push by students in many of these protests to seek "demands" over dialogue. I believe you will see just about exactly those words in the Hoya article. Or the Yale student screamed at her house master that she had no interest in an intellectual space, she demanded a safe space instead to protect her from imagined offenses. This infantilization of our campuses must stop. When the student concerns are valid, and only when they are, they should be engaged in dialogues. When they appropriate someone else's cause and explicitly state they intend to demand acquiescence they must be disabused of the notion that such action, bullying by any other name, will not be acquiesced. What does dialogue look like to you? Can it never involve demands? Are these students not learning how to persuade? How are these students both infantalized and tyrannical?
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 13, 2015 12:38:58 GMT -5
This a slippery slope on any sorts of levels, and the role of the Jesuits in the slave trade in the US and elsewhere, while a historical footnote, is liable to lead to collateral damage, which is why 'working groups" are an academic exercise that opens more doors than it closes.
For example, is Darnall Hall on the PC hit list? Eleanor Darnall Carroll was the daughter of a plantation owner and married one--this was the way of life in colonial Maryland. Or is "blue and gray" politically incorrect because gray is in honor of Confederate alumni?
There is a point where history must be seen as in context. But try telling that to a 19 year old who gets their news from Twitter and MSNBC.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Nov 13, 2015 12:41:38 GMT -5
So the most coherent argument for why Georgetown should not consider renaming the building, is that it would inevitably and eventually lead to us becoming simply the Blue rather than the Blue and Gray. And, so it's the students who are being reactionary?
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Nov 13, 2015 12:45:29 GMT -5
I can't think of a bigger threat to the concept of higher education than the push by students in many of these protests to seek "demands" over dialogue. I believe you will see just about exactly those words in the Hoya article. Or the Yale student screamed at her house master that she had no interest in an intellectual space, she demanded a safe space instead to protect her from imagined offenses. Could you point out what you're referencing here? The only thing I see is the woman who is on that committee basically saying she wants some action. I don't think that relates whatsoever to Yale. - “We’re tired of dialogue. We want tangible change. There are so many things that can be done with the stroke of a pen. I don’t think we realize that.” - Event coordinator Crystal Walker (SFS ’16) - After announcing the sit-in and distributing leaflets delineating demands, the organizers invited students of color to share their experiences of racial injustice at Georgetown. - The group announced a list of six demands directed at the university’s administration that address racial injustice at Georgetown. - The activists will stage a sit-in on the second floor of Healy Hall, outside the office of University President John J. DeGioia from 9 a.m. until midnight, beginning today, until their demands are met. features.thehoya.com/demonstrators-address-demands-to-university
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Nov 13, 2015 12:49:26 GMT -5
The hysteria continues to grow. The snake continues to eat its own tail. This one you could not make up- wouldn't be believable as a premise of a work of fiction even a few months ago. www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/11/13/claremont_mckenna_dean_resigns_for_don_t_fit_our_mold_email.htmlBe very very careful what you say. The slightest mis-spoken words even in the course of bending over backwards to accommodate a grievance group will be met with the immediate destruction of your career. Context and reason need not apply nor will they be tolerated. This is lovely. We should keep this up. Never have college campuses felt so much like East Germany.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Nov 13, 2015 13:01:48 GMT -5
So the most coherent argument for why Georgetown should not consider renaming the building, is that it would inevitably and eventually lead to us becoming simply the Blue rather than the Blue and Gray. And, so it's the students who are being reactionary? Are you intentionally being obtuse, or have you not ready any of the posts above? Sometimes a slippery slope really is a slippery slope.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 13, 2015 13:02:04 GMT -5
College is a time and place to learn how to persuade. How to think, how mount arguments you disagree with- maybe even find offensive. It is also a time when there should be some semblance of the real world at work because they are about to be thrown into it. I can't think of a bigger threat to the concept of higher education than the push by students in many of these protests to seek "demands" over dialogue. I believe you will see just about exactly those words in the Hoya article. Or the Yale student screamed at her house master that she had no interest in an intellectual space, she demanded a safe space instead to protect her from imagined offenses. This infantilization of our campuses must stop. When the student concerns are valid, and only when they are, they should be engaged in dialogues. When they appropriate someone else's cause and explicitly state they intend to demand acquiescence they must be disabused of the notion that such action, bullying by any other name, will not be acquiesced. What does dialogue look like to you? Can it never involve demands? Are these students not learning how to persuade? How are these students both infantalized and tyrannical? Dialogue and negotiations do, of course, involve plenty of demands. However, dialogue and negotiation imply room to maneuver and make changes - otherwise, it's an ultimatum. There is a place for those too, but generally there's a presumption of proportionality between the threat and the demand - otherwise, it's extortion. One can certainly disagree with tactics while agreeing with the ends. At the same time, slippery slope arguments are almost always speculative: if the students were demanding that the University start firing White professors until we reach 10% Black faculty, or that they take down the John Carroll statue, or that Copley be turned over to the Black House, then the public and administrative reaction would be very different than it is in a case where the demands aren't particularly unreasonable (the black faculty recruitment endowment thing is a bit iffy, but I would imagine that's the one where there's the greatest room for negotiation and joint solutioning). I'm all for dumping Mulledy and the rest on their own merits; they were roundly criticized even in their own time, so it's not just a question of presentism. Unlike a Washington or a Jefferson, I've seen no great achievements on their part that outweigh their sins to the extent necessary for eternal enshrinement on the name of building. How are these students both infantalized and tyrannical? The concept of the Enfant Terrible comes to mind. In some cases, it's even helpful to be seen as infantile or crazy or otherwise unreasonable because you're more likely to get your way over others, which is the point of tyranny. Let the Wookie win. Aaaanywho, I know JJD has been talking to them, and he's a deeply empathetic and intellectually and emotionally intelligent person who I believe will come to a good resolution.
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