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Post by strummer8526 on Mar 20, 2015 12:36:25 GMT -5
The thing is it doesn't even make sense. JT3 has recruited Jon Wallace, Chris Wright, Markel Starks, DSR, and now Tre Campbell. Those first four guys were all league level players or better. Tre is pretty damn good too. He had no turnovers under pressure. And yes, it really was mostly a product of bad passes by DSR that made their pressure look better than it was. It does make sense. All I'm saying is JT3 has done incredibly well recruiting frontcourt players. He finds talented players that are 6' 7" and taller. He just doesn't find great talent with guards. Yes.....Wallace, Freeman, Wright, Starks & DSR are decent to good college players but not great. List of frontcourt players that made the NBA under JT3 Monroe Summers Sims Porter Green Hibert Thompson List of guards that made the NBA under JT3 0.000.00 is my favorite player of the last decade. His ability to get to the rim "whenever he wanted" was especially helpful becuase he always "wanted," so we scored on literally every possession. Those were the days. Every guard since has been inferior.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Mar 20, 2015 13:14:20 GMT -5
You get the feeling if we make the Sweet 16 and there's not a lot left to complain about or be persecuted about, Hoyatalk's just gonna be a bunch of old dudes arguing about abortion and asking if anyone knows how to stream FS1 games?
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Post by tullamore2 on Mar 20, 2015 13:19:17 GMT -5
It does make sense. All I'm saying is JT3 has done incredibly well recruiting frontcourt players. He finds talented players that are 6' 7" and taller. He just doesn't find great talent with guards. Yes.....Wallace, Freeman, Wright, Starks & DSR are decent to good college players but not great. List of frontcourt players that made the NBA under JT3 Monroe Summers Sims Porter Green Hibert Thompson List of guards that made the NBA under JT3 0.00 I don't think it is worth getting into a Editeding match, but your point is pretty weak when you say JTIII "doesn't find great talent with guards" and support that point by saying that "Wallace, Freeman, Wright, Starks & DSR are decent to good college players." Three of those five were HIGHLY recruited guards coming out of high school, so the statement utterly undermines the point you are trying to make. At this point we are just quibbling over semantics. We all have a different interpretation of what the word "great" is. I was using the metric of being NBA caliber as being great. My whole point of this thread was we seem to not value the true point guard under JT3. He seems to either not recruit the great guards or the great guards don't seem to have interest in coming to Georgetown. Either way I think that has hurt us come tournament time where guard oriented teams seem to flourish. Of the 13 scholarships that are available next year we have only 2 true guards on the roster (Tre & DSR). In my opinion it seems that JT3 doesn't value the PG position as much as he should.
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smokeyjack
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Post by smokeyjack on Mar 20, 2015 13:30:28 GMT -5
I do agree with OP in that JT3 has for some reason really struggled to attract rim-attacking point guards, and I think that shows up most glaringly in the postseason.
About 10 years ago, I looked at a large sample of data on NCAA tournament teams and two things jumped out:
1. The statistic most closely correlated to teams earning a bid seemed to be FG % D.
2. The regular season stat that seemed to be the best predictor of success in the tournament was FT offense (which at the time was a combination of FT margin and FT accuracy).
Those trends were evident when looking at NCAA Tourn teams 1998-2007, so there could absolutely be better predictors now.
How this relates to the Hoyas, however, is that it could be one explanation for why we have had so much success during the regular season under 3 (his teams are nearly always in top 50 in FG% D) but have been extremely vulnerable in postseason. The current team seems to get to the line quite a lot and converts quite well once there for the most part, but that has generally not been a hallmark of JT3 teams. Why? Well, one reason could be that our teams are rarely built around the kind of dribble-drive dynamos that are more typical of high FT offense squads.
Just a thought...
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Mar 20, 2015 13:38:37 GMT -5
III has won almost 70 percent of his games over the last decade
I'll trust his judgement over yours
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Mar 20, 2015 13:41:29 GMT -5
The thing is it doesn't even make sense. JT3 has recruited Jon Wallace, Chris Wright, Markel Starks, DSR, and now Tre Campbell. Those first four guys were all league level players or better. Tre is pretty damn good too. He had no turnovers under pressure. And yes, it really was mostly a product of bad passes by DSR that made their pressure look better than it was. It does make sense. All I'm saying is JT3 has done incredibly well recruiting frontcourt players. He finds talented players that are 6' 7" and taller. He just doesn't find great talent with guards. Yes.....Wallace, Freeman, Wright, Starks & DSR are decent to good college players but not great. List of frontcourt players that made the NBA under JT3 Monroe Summers Sims Porter Green Hibert Thompson List of guards that made the NBA under JT3 0.00 So which coach is good at recruiting point guards under this rubric? Here are the schools who currently have the more than 1 rostered NBA PGs: Kentucky 4 UCLA 4 Texas 3 Wake 3 Conn 2 UMD 2 Michigan 2 Missouri 2 UNC 2 OKST 2 Oregon 2 St. Joes 2 Cuse 2 Washington 2 That's the complete list.
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Mar 20, 2015 13:42:24 GMT -5
Wasn't aware that the test of a good college guard is where he was drafted in the NBA. These are four year players who are candidates for league POY as upperclassmen. What could you possibly have against that? The fact that Chris Wright was a couple inches too short or Markel was a mediocre athlete or DSR isn't much of a leaper effects their draft position but as a person who wants to see the Hoyas win games, so what? If they weren't those things, they would have left after a year or two anyway. We're doing fine recruiting guards. We could do better, but to say we have an inability to recruit point guards is just silly beyond belief looking at the level of point guard play we've had under JT3.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 20, 2015 13:51:07 GMT -5
So when his the timing good? After a loss, or after the seson. All points raised are very valid. This wasn't The Villes pressure from a couple of years ago. It was EW. and it gave us a lot of trouble. Outside of Novas Zone traps and pressure we haven't seen much this year or last. Its not just some bonehead passes by DSR that were wtf and can easily be corrected but its the mental pressure that the press will eventually cause those errors. Going forward jabrill has not been replaced at what ever position you want to call it. A combo, Pt forward, or a traditional 2. Is Tre the answer I'm far from convinced,he has speed but his handle and passing are a far cry from what is needed. Those who say we don't need your classic pg may be right i just don't see the classic Point Forward yet in either Copeland or White. We aren't even running much of the offense that we have been accustomed to. Still think we need to add depth to the position for next year and quality for 16 and it would be great if we could find a guard that could defend. It's sad that people have to be discussing this right now. I feel sorry for you people. There's maybe 4 or 5 days every year (at most) where we can celebrate a big win I. The NCAA or BE tournaments? Yet people want to talk [negatively] about recruiting. There's months to talk about that.
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madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Mar 20, 2015 13:51:48 GMT -5
Agree. PG play under JT3 has been superb, especially from a leadership standpoint.
There has always a certain subculture of Hoya "fans" frustrated by the lack of Georgetown players who make And1 highlight reel plays, and the fact that the JT3 offense is not nicknamed "Dunk City", and that we don't play Nolan Richardson's 40 minutes of hell on defense. Same types who cheered Old Miss trying an ally oop on a 2 on None break down 10 in second half.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 20, 2015 13:54:33 GMT -5
The thing is it doesn't even make sense. JT3 has recruited Jon Wallace, Chris Wright, Markel Starks, DSR, and now Tre Campbell. Those first four guys were all league level players or better. Tre is pretty damn good too. He had no turnovers under pressure. And yes, it really was mostly a product of bad passes by DSR that made their pressure look better than it was. It does make sense. All I'm saying is JT3 has done incredibly well recruiting frontcourt players. He finds talented players that are 6' 7" and taller. He just doesn't find great talent with guards. Yes.....Wallace, Freeman, Wright, Starks & DSR are decent to good college players but not great. List of frontcourt players that made the NBA under JT3 Monroe Summers Sims Porter Green Hibert Thompson List of guards that made the NBA under JT3 0.00 You're either an idiot or deliberately ignoring his post?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 20, 2015 14:00:25 GMT -5
I don't think it is worth getting into a Editeding match, but your point is pretty weak when you say JTIII "doesn't find great talent with guards" and support that point by saying that "Wallace, Freeman, Wright, Starks & DSR are decent to good college players." Three of those five were HIGHLY recruited guards coming out of high school, so the statement utterly undermines the point you are trying to make. At this point we are just quibbling over semantics. We all have a different interpretation of what the word "great" is. I was using the metric of being NBA caliber as being great. My whole point of this thread was we seem to not value the true point guard under JT3. He seems to either not recruit the great guards or the great guards don't seem to have interest in coming to Georgetown. Either way I think that has hurt us come tournament time where guard oriented teams seem to flourish. Of the 13 scholarships that are available next year we have only 2 true guards on the roster (Tre & DSR). In my opinion it seems that JT3 doesn't value the PG position as much as he should. But you didn't call the thread "inability to recruit NBA guards," or even "inability to recruit great guards." Nice try. And you're still not being consistent, you say we have no NBA guards, but in the same post you say your complaint is we will only have two guards on the roster next year. Which is it?
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smokeyjack
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Post by smokeyjack on Mar 20, 2015 14:01:17 GMT -5
I think OP's title "inability to recruit PGs" is too strong, but I do think it's clear that he has struggled to attract guards with elite athleticism. He's done a marvelous job attracting superior combos like DSR and Freeman, solid floor leaders like Starks, Wallace and Wright and reasonably athletic slashers like Clark, Sapp and Peak.
But we haven't had a truly dynamic facilitator at the point since Kenny Brunner's ill-fated stint on the Hilltop.
There just aren't a lot of superbly athletic facilitators out there year in and year out. But those that are out there don't seem to have much interest in playing at GU.
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jester
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Post by jester on Mar 20, 2015 16:12:32 GMT -5
And frankly, guards are harder to project than even big guys. There have been plenty of highly regarded guards that just didn't add much value (someone like Ryan Harrow) and plenty who aren't and do (Harvey, Baker, Curry). On the balance, find me a big guy - as an NBA scout said DSR is great, but there are 25 guards like him. I think JTIII thinks he can get guards where they need to be. Also on that list are Texas and Wake, that sometimes have stuggled even with premier guards. I think the success of NCAA teams have come from good guard play, but of the Nolan Smith / Sheyer variety is good enough (and they aren't NBA roster guards).
I do agree we have lacked some good create your own offense guards. Markel came closest by his senior year with his step back move, Wright just couldn't finish when he drove, and Sapp actually was sneaky good at times. Freeman was good at mismatches. hopefully Tre can be that guy.
Honestly, the type of player that Id be happy with at PG is a Cook type (Ashanti or Quinn) who is a threat from outside, ok everywhere else, and pair him alongside some good wings and a passing big man.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Mar 20, 2015 17:43:52 GMT -5
The thing is it doesn't even make sense. JT3 has recruited Jon Wallace, Chris Wright, Markel Starks, DSR, and now Tre Campbell. Those first four guys were all league level players or better. Tre is pretty damn good too. He had no turnovers under pressure. And yes, it really was mostly a product of bad passes by DSR that made their pressure look better than it was. It does make sense. All I'm saying is JT3 has done incredibly well recruiting frontcourt players. He finds talented players that are 6' 7" and taller. He just doesn't find great talent with guards. Yes.....Wallace, Freeman, Wright, Starks & DSR are decent to good college players but not great. List of frontcourt players that made the NBA under JT3 Monroe Summers Sims Porter Green Hibert Thompson List of guards that made the NBA under JT3 0.00 Not to mention there's much more parity and competition at the PG position in college basketball. Sorry they weren't all Americans, but they were all plus players.They were first team all leaguers and certain health issues prevented the most naturally talented of the group from securing a contract in the NBA when they were more healthy, and comparably skilled players out there. Also, that year Austin and Chris graduated they were definitely hurt by the lockout so they essentially went the straight up FA route, which, unless you have a really good agent, is a tough field to navigate for any player.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Mar 20, 2015 18:41:15 GMT -5
Agree. PG play under JT3 has been superb, especially from a leadership standpoint. There has always a certain subculture of Hoya "fans" frustrated by the lack of Georgetown players who make And1 highlight reel plays, and the fact that the JT3 offense is not nicknamed "Dunk City", and that we don't play Nolan Richardson's 40 minutes of hell on defense. Same types who cheered Old Miss trying an ally oop on a 2 on None break down 10 in second half. So you didn't watch the last 6 minutes of the game where every guard like player we had was on the floor and we were unable to handle the pressure.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Mar 20, 2015 18:53:08 GMT -5
We handled the pressure in the backcourt. One "five second" violation, which may or may not have been a legit call. Otherwise, the problem was in the front court, once we crossed the center stripe. That's where the sloppy play took over. This dissection of "poor point guard" recruitment and play is really straining to find a negative, on a day when we should be basking in the warmth and glory of a win which few pundits foresaw.
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Post by eastcoastteddy58 on Mar 20, 2015 19:15:19 GMT -5
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Mar 20, 2015 21:06:05 GMT -5
We handled the pressure in the backcourt. One "five second" violation, which may or may not have been a legit call. Otherwise, the problem was in the front court, once we crossed the center stripe. That's where the sloppy play took over. This dissection of "poor point guard" recruitment and play is really straining to find a negative, on a day when we should be basking in the warmth and glory of a win which few pundits foresaw. Struggling to find a negative...um no. I am sorry, but we had a 25 point lead that went away because our guards couldn't handle the pressure of getting the ball in bounds across the stripe and into the hands of others in position to be successful......and every single player on scholarship who could qualify as a guard was on the floor. A Big Sky team put more pressure on us than our talent could handle. That is sad. Maybe we need fewer 6'8" swingmen and more guys with a handle and some composure.
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Mar 20, 2015 21:10:45 GMT -5
We handled the pressure in the backcourt. One "five second" violation, which may or may not have been a legit call. Otherwise, the problem was in the front court, once we crossed the center stripe. That's where the sloppy play took over. This dissection of "poor point guard" recruitment and play is really straining to find a negative, on a day when we should be basking in the warmth and glory of a win which few pundits foresaw. Struggling to find a negative...um no. I am sorry, but we had a 25 point lead that went away because our guards couldn't handle the pressure of getting the ball in bounds across the stripe and into the hands of others in position to be successful......and every single player on scholarship who could qualify as a guard was on the floor. A Big Sky team put more pressure on us than our talent could handle. That is sad. Maybe we need fewer 6'8" swingmen and more guys with a handle and some composure. Disagree. Trawick was clearly hurt at the end of the game and prob shouldn't have been playing. We broke the press just fine but seemed to try to take the air out of the ball past half court instead of running our sets which lead to careless turnovers.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Mar 20, 2015 21:14:00 GMT -5
Well if every guard you have is on the floor and one of them is hurt, maybe you need to recruit more guards....which is the point.
Maybe it is an appropriate time to remember the collective wisdom of this board thought we would never need a 3rd center.....yea not until the 1st tournament game.
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