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Post by daytonahoya31 on Mar 4, 2015 18:20:30 GMT -5
DSR isn't our best defender. Mikael is, by a mile. That being said. DSR has been very good on that end this season
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Mar 4, 2015 20:20:03 GMT -5
DSR isn't our best defender. Mikael is, by a mile. That being said. DSR has been very good on that end this season I agree with this. And if I had to pick a second place, it would probably be Jabril. That said, for DSR to even be in the discussion compared to where he started his career, is a testament to the kid's desire to improve and the staff's ability to coach him up on that end.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 4, 2015 21:09:27 GMT -5
DSR isn't our best defender. Mikael is, by a mile. That being said. DSR has been very good on that end this season I agree with this. And if I had to pick a second place, it would probably be Jabril. That said, for DSR to even be in the discussion compared to where he started his career, is a testament to the kid's desire to improve and the staff's ability to coach him up on that end. Big East players in the top 500 in both steal % and fouls per 40: Devin Brooks Jajuan Johnson and DSR Two absolute defensive specialists who are amongst the worst offensive players in the league on two of the worst teams in the league. And the undisputed leader of a top 3 team. I think what DSR does for 35 minutes a game on tired legs is extraordinary and under-appreciated. Taking nothing away from Hop or Bril, but nothing works without DSR and that includes the defense.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Mar 4, 2015 21:15:13 GMT -5
I think it is extraordinary especially considering where he started on D. He could always score. Now, his role is a bit of a hybrid one and he's still getting buckets. But on defense, he's MILES better than where he was as a freshman or even as a sophomore. Early on, he'd duck under screens. He now actively fights through them and, most of the time, fairly easily. It's sort of how I saw LJ in his first handful of games. I hope he continues on a similar trajectory defensively. Back to DSR, his lateral quickness and strength are both much improved and it's clear to see why just by looking at him. The guy clearly gets after it in the gym. As for where he ranks, this could be a really fun thread but I don't even want to think about it until the offseason when I'm looking for anything Hoya basketball to get excited about but there are no games to watch. When his career is over at Georgetown, he'll be in elite company. We do know that. Fingers crossed that he stays healthy. It's such a small window for college in general but, in terms of basketball, it's even that much smaller. I always hate seeing guys having to sit due to illness or injury. There may be some measurables that DSR is lacking for the next level in the eyes of "experts" but he's a great college player. And, for right now, that's a lot of fun to watch.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 4, 2015 21:17:55 GMT -5
I think Mikael is clearly our best defender. Josh has a stronger impact than people think. Jabril and Bowen are better perimeter, one on one defenders.
That all said, I do think DSR should get credit for his counting defense. He's a strong D rebounder, rarely fouls, and gets some steals. He's not a liability anywhere, so he's better than he gets credit for.
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That all said, offensively, DSR is going to likely have career numbers and averages very close to Austin Freeman over his four year career. I think he's a better defender (and so does almost every advanced metric). So if his senior year is like his junior year, then yeah, I think DSR will be the best guard of the JTIII era. His career stats and averages will be well ahead of Wallace, who's the only one who is really going to have post-season success on him (sadly).
Taking these numbers for what they are worth (pretty accurate on offense; reliant on team D results and box score categories on D), he's the career Value Add numbers for Hoya guards:
Austin Freeman 21.4 DSR 18.23 through 3 years (Projected probably closer to 24 over 4 years) Jon Wallace 16.94 Jason Clark 16.62 Chris Wright 16.15 Jessie Sapp 14.31 Jabril Trawick 10.02 Markel Starks 9.22
Note: Value Add is measured in terms of point spread/game/year. So, it's a counting stat in terms of minutes and production in a game, it's a rate stat in terms of games/season (missing whole games doesn't hurt you), and it's a counting stat in terms of me adding seasons. Markel and Chris did not play a lot in some of their early seasons and it hurts them. DSR still needs his senior year added in, but neither DSR nor Trawick are really hurt by not having their last few games played this year. If that makes ANY sense.
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In case you are curious:
Roy Hibbert 23.24 (DSR 18.23) Jeff Green 18.21 over 3 seasons Otto Porter 16.04 over 2 seasons Greg Monroe 14.70 over 2 seasons Sweetney 11.5 over just his junior year.
Value Add is pretty flawed on the defensive end (overly reliant on counting stats and no acknowledgement of the team aspect) and a little flawed on the offensive end. But it's worth at least interesting to see that:
a) DSR might have the most individual value over his four years. Again, hardly definitive, but I'm not sure he gets the respect he deserves! b) It's worth discussing that the team success in 2005-2008 was truly a team effort. Might not be true that players like Monroe and Porter were better... but it's interesting, no?
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 4, 2015 21:53:29 GMT -5
Flawed as it may be, isn't it almost exactly as you would think? Interesting stuff.
I will disagree with one thing which is "he gets some steals." He's 3rd/4th in the league and a league with Kris Dunn no less! He also made the two biggest defensive plays of the season preserving both Butler wins. I think this is the classic downplay DSR gets.
He's not flashy but defense isn't about cool blocks and darting into passing lanes especially on this team. DSR plays boring defense and he does it because he has to. He can't risk fouling out of a game because without him we are screwed. So he had to work that much harder to get good without fouling. I hope he teaches the freshmen how he did it.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 4, 2015 22:00:21 GMT -5
Yeah, I totally played down his steals -- and he's better than solid one on one as well. I know he doesn't draw the #1 assignment, but he's also not getting lit up by anyone he does get assigned.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Mar 4, 2015 23:34:11 GMT -5
I'll give you DSR is a better defender. But Austin was much better at going to the hoop. He was amazingly strong in the paint. And you can't compare career numbers. Austin played the last year and a half with diabetes. I watched him senior year and he had maybe 5-10 good minutes in him before he was gassed. In fact, I recall seeing him motioning to the bench in one game to be taken out. And don't compare Austins 28 to DSRs 24. We were being demolished by a very good UCONN team when Austin took over in the second half. So for pure athleticism and skill I will take Austin but I agree that DSR is much more valuable to this team because of his poise and leadership. He is expected to do a lot more for this team to succeed than Austin was for his. I especially am impressed how well he has handled the transformation from shooting to point guard.
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 4, 2015 23:59:37 GMT -5
Austin career numbers: 13.7 ppg, 49.8% FG, 38.0% 3FG, 3.6 RPG, 2.1 APG, 0.8 SPG DSR's career numbers: 14.1 ppg, 42.5% FG, 37.9% 3FG, 4.1 RPG, 2.4 APG, 1.2 SPG Wasn't Freeman playing small forward for most of his time with the Hoyas? He was more of a wing anyway. DSR played some shooting guard and now point. I always felt that for a small forward Austin's rebounding numbers were kind of low and his steals are low for a wing. DSR for a point guard has excellent rebounding numbers and solid good steal numbers. His steal numbers are really good considering that he's not that fast, long or athletic. He just has really quick hands and great technique with the steals like Larry Bird. For a guy whose not that athletic (which seems to be why he had some haters), DSR really makes the most of what he has in fact he is kind of a mini Larry Bird in terms of his style of play.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Mar 5, 2015 9:54:50 GMT -5
DSR is the most complete guard, and therefore best guard of the JT3 era. Austin was a better pure scorer, but he loses to DSR fairly signficantly in every other category - defense, rebounding, assists, leadership, etc. It is so hard to compare guards to centers or pure forwards, so I won't try.
I do think DSR deserves a lot of credit for learning to play good defense considering he came into his freshman year as not the most committed or willing defender. Something that has also always stood out to me is DSR's rebounding ability for a 6'3" player. He is not afraid to go get it and has a good instinct for finding the ball.
Finally, DSR should get credit for coming into this season, a season he knew would ride on his productivity, in terrific physical shape. Not only has he become a pretty good point guard in one season playing the position, but his conditioning has been impressive.
I am really looking forward to his senior year, I think he will be the face of the conference if the team does well and should garner plenty of national attention - the year should be a ton of fun for the fans and hopefully for DSR as well.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Mar 5, 2015 10:27:23 GMT -5
DSR has a pretty good chance of being the only guard to finish his Hoya career with more than 500 rebounds and an outside chance of cracking the top 25 all time. Joey Brown and Kevin Braswell came close (497 and 494 respectively), but both fell just short. I'm also not including Perry McDonald as a guard, but he was before my time, so I'm not sure if that's the best way to interpret the "guard/forward" position the Basketball History Project has him listed as.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Mar 5, 2015 10:38:43 GMT -5
Perry was smaller than Jabril or LJ, but he never played a guard-like role on the team. Just ask Rony Seikaly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 11:04:52 GMT -5
I am not sure that DSR isn't the most complete player ever, including during Pops tenure. Now he is nowhere the the player that AI was and may never even play in the NBA. However, he does it all and I don't think we have ever had a player like that at Georgetown.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Mar 5, 2015 11:15:36 GMT -5
Bay Bay Duren was pretty good, but there are likely few board members who would remember.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Mar 5, 2015 11:17:47 GMT -5
I am not sure that DSR isn't the most complete player ever, including during Pops tenure. Now he is nowhere the the player that AI was and may never even play in the NBA. However, he does it all and I don't think we have ever had a player like that at Georgetown. The conversation about the most complete player in Georgetown history begins and ends with Reggie Williams. #3 all time in scoring, #6 all time in rebounding, #6 all time in 3pt FG%, #13 all time in assists, #6 all time in steals, #24 all time in blocked shots,
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Mar 5, 2015 11:24:41 GMT -5
Eric Floyd deserves consideration.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 12:04:20 GMT -5
Yup!! you are right. How could I forget about Reggie Williams.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Mar 5, 2015 12:18:25 GMT -5
Bay Bay Duren was pretty good, but there are likely few board members who would remember. Bay Bay was the best PG ever to play at GU - and that includes AI, who wasn't really a PG. Iverson was clearly one-of-a-kind. Best athlete ever to play at GU - maybe ever to play NCAA hoops. Best offensive guard ever. Won BE Defensive POY. But Duren understood the game, was tough as nails, played great O and D, and was a real leader of the entire team. He was also the first Hoya to be drafted in Round 1 of the NBA draft. in 79/80 he teamed with Eric "Sleepy" Floyd in the best backcourt ever to play for the Hoyas. Of course, those of us who remember Bay Bay, also remember his HS and GU teammate, forward Craig "Big Sky" Shelton. Both Duren and Shelton are among the top ten Hoyas of all time. More on Johnny Duren: www.hoyabasketball.com/features/top100/j_duren.htmAll that said, DSR is terrific. We are so lucky to have him. Does anyone still wish we had Semaj Christon instead? DSR probably is the best guard of the JT3 era. Freeman had great offensive ability and could shoot the three. Yes, he suffered from Diabetes and that did hold him back, but so did his conditioning - or lack thereof. He was not a good defender and had no mid-range game. DSR can get himself open for those mid-range shots and can and will score in any way necessary - driving layups, treys, mid-range, putbacks, foul shots, he just finds a way to score the ball. And he is the unquestioned leader of the team. Talented as Freeman was, he was never the leader of the team. One could say Austin played out of position at the three too often. I n my view? DSR is number one. Of course, that is why I totally disagreed with that reported comment from Pops that Jabril was the only player on the current team who could have played for his teams in the 80s. If that is what he really said, I can only assume he wasn't really thinking and was simply trying to pay Trawick a compliment. But in the process he dissed DSR (intentionally or not) because there is no question Smith-Rivera could have played on all of those 80s teams and likely started for most of them. AND WE GET HIM FOR ONE MORE YEAR!
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Mar 5, 2015 12:20:21 GMT -5
I am not sure that DSR isn't the most complete player ever, including during Pops tenure. Now he is nowhere the the player that AI was and may never even play in the NBA. However, he does it all and I don't think we have ever had a player like that at Georgetown. Let's not forget Charles Smith ....especially during his senior season. He was clearly a cut above DSR. In fact, there are very few Hoyas in the modern era who had a better single season than Charles Smith....Reggie Williams for sure and possibly Iverson.
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Post by JohnnyJones on Mar 5, 2015 12:31:37 GMT -5
I am not sure that DSR isn't the most complete player ever, including during Pops tenure. Now he is nowhere the the player that AI was and may never even play in the NBA. However, he does it all and I don't think we have ever had a player like that at Georgetown. Let's not forget Charles Smith ....especially during his senior season. He was clearly a cut above DSR. In fact, there are very few Hoyas in the modern era who had a better single season than Charles Smith....Reggie Williams for sure and possibly Iverson. I agree with this (and the '88-'89 team is really my sweet spot when it comes to Georgetown basketball). This is also why I and several of my classmates will start on goatees after the game Saturday, not to be shaved off until after our final game of the season. The "Charles Smith Final Four Goatee". Sadly, as everyone here knows well, it has only worked once in 26 years.
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