njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Oct 22, 2014 21:58:06 GMT -5
Patience, grasshopper. Patience.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Oct 22, 2014 22:03:50 GMT -5
Who are the kids you're referring to? Some have already been named in this thread and this thread is titled one such kid. You lost me Tas.. It's all good though
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Oct 22, 2014 22:08:18 GMT -5
Dud how? Because no one committed? Did you read the roster/number of kids that were there? I don't ever recall a MM pulling that many kids. Have the guys that attendeded commit elsewhere? Until they do, "dud" is premature. Dud as in no commitments. I really just meant a disappointment from my perspective. I was really looking for one or two commitments at or shortly after MM. I get what you're saying but it was a huge turnout of prospects at MM. Until they commit elsewhere, I can't consider it anything less than a big success. Maybe I'm just wrong but I take visits to MM by guys that are being recruited more seriously than a standard in-home or official visit. I'm not saying that it can't turn out to not bear fruit. Only that, for now, it seems like the staff is pulling locally and nationally and that's a pretty good sign.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Oct 22, 2014 22:15:17 GMT -5
Some have already been named in this thread and this thread is titled one such kid. You lost me Tas.. It's all good though I think the misunderstanding is more on my end. I read your post that I commented on a few times after responding and read it different ways each time. The only point that I was trying to make is that, as you mentioned, the staff is on guys like Otto and Greg and, maybe, Galen. They seem to be shaking the trees and getting to games of less lauded guys in the hopes of finding a guy that has flown under the radar. And, in that sense, I do trust the staff. My only real disappointment (if you can call it that) is the number of project bigs we seem to go after. I understand why to a degree but when it's limiting your ability to fill other positions, it's a bit of an issue. Then I get to thinking that guys that size, a lot of the time, haven't had time to put everything together and Georgetown is not typically a destination for the one and done type kid that is developed enough to get drafted but can't because of the rules in place. Anyway, I'll stop because I could ramble on this topic more than I already have.
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Post by capcenterhoya on Oct 22, 2014 22:25:29 GMT -5
From a couple of years ago:
Galen Robinson is a rising sophomore (2015)...attending Westbury Christian (Houston). Standing at 5'10, he is one growth spurt away from taking his game to a whole new level. That spurt should be coming any day now, he wears a size 13/14 shoe and has the geness of his dad who stands at 6'8. Galen is a pass first PG but can get buckets when needed...Be on the look out because he is One the Rise...
Guess that growth spurt never came. He does seem to have long arms, though it's hard to tell just watching his clips. With the talent we have at the 2-5, there is definitely a need for a pure point that can handle the ball, make the right pass, and hit the open shot.
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Post by eastcoastteddy58 on Oct 23, 2014 5:47:45 GMT -5
All I'm saying is that I've counted at least 16 guards or guard like recruits (PG-SF) that have passed on GU. That's pretty alarming! I will admit I have high expectation and I also agree with shaking the bush to find quality recruits, but my patience is getting thin. We are the flagship of the Big East, we put quality players in the NBA but we also provide a quality education to fall back on. What is it about GU that is so unappealing?
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Post by hurrahforgeorgetown on Oct 23, 2014 7:14:45 GMT -5
For the record, from what I have been told, all recruits that attended MM had a fantastic time. Especially the kids from Carlisle
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 23, 2014 7:46:07 GMT -5
All I'm saying is that I've counted at least 16 guards or guard like recruits (PG-SF) that have passed on GU. That's pretty alarming! I will admit I have high expectation and I also agree with shaking the bush to find quality recruits, but my patience is getting thin. We are the flagship of the Big East, we put quality players in the NBA but we also provide a quality education to fall back on. What is it about GU that is so unappealing? Not everyone wants to go to Georgetown and not every recruit is at the top of a coach's list. Lots of kids "pass" on Georgetown when that's better than saying that the school's offer may not be available anymore, or they don't fit academically and neither side wants to promote it. Five out of six recruits since 1972 never made it to the pros and among guards, even fewer. Is there an opportunity? Sure. But the deflated basketball still means something 42 years later--if a kid is not serious about an education regardless of his hopes and dreams, this is not the place for him.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Oct 23, 2014 8:47:02 GMT -5
Good points, DFW. But are forwards and centers smarter than guards? I think (and perhaps I am wrong) that the larger point is that for some reason, elite guards do not seem to want to flock to GU.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 8:52:13 GMT -5
All I'm saying is that I've counted at least 16 guards or guard like recruits (PG-SF) that have passed on GU. That's pretty alarming! I will admit I have high expectation and I also agree with shaking the bush to find quality recruits, but my patience is getting thin. We are the flagship of the Big East, we put quality players in the NBA but we also provide a quality education to fall back on. What is it about GU that is so unappealing? It’s frustrating but that’s just recruiting…. Even though this kid is under the radar a bit he looks very solid fwiw...
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Oct 23, 2014 9:02:19 GMT -5
All I'm saying is that I've counted at least 16 guards or guard like recruits (PG-SF) that have passed on GU. That's pretty alarming! I will admit I have high expectation and I also agree with shaking the bush to find quality recruits, but my patience is getting thin. We are the flagship of the Big East, we put quality players in the NBA but we also provide a quality education to fall back on. What is it about GU that is so unappealing? It’s frustrating but that’s just recruiting…. Even though this kid is under the radar a bit he looks very solid fwiw... Obviously I have no idea about this kid, but from what I've read over the past day or so, if he was from New York (or Philly) rather than Houston we'd be a lot more excited and talking about toughness / not having a kid from NYC since Sapp / needing a Trawick replacement. Of course, he'd likely have been on our radar a little earlier if that was the case. Still, that might be that East Coast bias seeping in. I'd bet DFW could go on a bit about that.
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on Oct 23, 2014 9:34:36 GMT -5
For the record, from what I have been told, all recruits that attended MM had a fantastic time. Especially the kids from Carlisle Hopefully it made a lasting impression.
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Oct 23, 2014 9:36:59 GMT -5
All I'm saying is that I've counted at least 16 guards or guard like recruits (PG-SF) that have passed on GU. That's pretty alarming! I will admit I have high expectation and I also agree with shaking the bush to find quality recruits, but my patience is getting thin. We are the flagship of the Big East, we put quality players in the NBA but we also provide a quality education to fall back on. What is it about GU that is so unappealing? To be fair we have studs who just arrived at the hilltop at the sg, sf, and pf positions. If I were a '15 recruit at one of those positions I'd think twice too. On top of that we have a top 50 center arriving next year. The only position we are trully struggling with is at pg. Finally, we have to start winning. We aren't going to land many mcd AA's by losing to FGCU and following it up by not making the tourney. Winning cures everything.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Oct 23, 2014 9:56:37 GMT -5
The key is skillset and how a particular kid fits within the program as opposed to "potential" to move on to the NBA. While Georgetown is known as Big Man U to some, it is not as if the team has been without quality guards, assuming that quality is not measured solely by some pre-collegiate ranking based upon production in high school and on club teams. During the JT III era I believe the MVP among guards is Jonathan Wallace, a completely off the radar recruit taken away from Princeton. Other more highly regarded recruits had better numbers but pale in comparison to the importance and contribution of Wallace to that Final Four team that was loaded with talent and some future NBA players.
That said, I believe that JT III's struggles to recruit a more highly touted guard are also due in part to his reputation for the system he runs. While the Georgetown "system" is in a state of evolution, it has been labeled by opposing recruiters as a slow tempo, half-court offense, directly in contrast to the quicker up-tempo styles often seen throughout AAU and club basketball circuits. I have repeataedly heard that characterization here in SoCal in conversations with members of the basketball programs at SDSU and UCLA.
Now many of us have seen some flexibility in JT III's approach the past few years, perhaps out of necessity. Starks, Trawick and DSR certainly were the focus of the last season, particularly after the loss of Smith. With DSR, Bowen, Trawick, Copeland, Hopkins and Peak this year, it is very likely that the Hoyas are more equipped than in other recent years to run a quicker tempo game on both offense and defense. This will certainly appeal to highly regarded and athletic players at all positions. However, if they come out of the gates walking the ball up court and trying to repeatedly feed it in to Smith in the lane for post-ups or kick outs, it will reinforce the perception that the JT III style is not suited to players who want to play faster tempo. It may actually lead to more wins, but it will not change the pitch used by other coaching staffs to recruit against the Hoyas
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beenaround
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Post by beenaround on Oct 23, 2014 10:29:09 GMT -5
The key is skillset and how a particular kid fits within the program as opposed to "potential" to move on to the NBA. While Georgetown is known as Big Man U to some, it is not as if the team has been without quality guards, assuming that quality is not measured solely by some pre-collegiate ranking based upon production in high school and on club teams. During the JT III era I believe the MVP among guards is Jonathan Wallace, a completely off the radar recruit taken away from Princeton. Other more highly regarded recruits had better numbers but pale in comparison to the importance and contribution of Wallace to that Final Four team that was loaded with talent and some future NBA players. That said, I believe that JT III's struggles to recruit a more highly touted guard are also due in part to his reputation for the system he runs. While the Georgetown "system" is in a state of evolution, it has been labeled by opposing recruiters as a slow tempo, half-court offense, directly in contrast to the quicker up-tempo styles often seen throughout AAU and club basketball circuits. I have repeataedly heard that characterization here in SoCal in conversations with members of the basketball programs at SDSU and UCLA. Now many of us have seen some flexibility in JT III's approach the past few years, perhaps out of necessity. Starks, Trawick and DSR certainly were the focus of the last season, particularly after the loss of Smith. With DSR, Bowen, Trawick, Copeland, Hopkins and Peak this year, it is very likely that the Hoyas are more equipped than in other recent years to run a quicker tempo game on both offense and defense. This will certainly appeal to highly regarded and athletic players at all positions. However, if they come out of the gates walking the ball up court and trying to repeatedly feed it in to Smith in the lane for post-ups or kick outs, it will reinforce the perception that the JT III style is not suited to players who want to play faster tempo. It may actually lead to more wins, but it will not change the pitch used by other coaching staffs to recruit against the Hoyas Great points. I also think we can't have it every way...We all expect the Big Man U reputation to help us land a Tacko or Rabb, yet wonder why point guards don't find the Hilltop attractive. I would say that in the Big East, Nova has the Little Man U perception. I also agree that this perception may not be reality, in terms of how the team plays every year, but it is strong, from the high school level to the NBA. I spoke to a low level member of the Wiz coaching staff this summer, after they worked out Starks. The team really needs a young backup PG, and they liked "everything we saw about him." But, he said, " he played in the, Princeton offense , so we do not know how he would be able to play at our pace." On the other hand, i read NBA people all the time mentioning how well skilled Hoya big men are when they reach the league. We probably need to get lucky with a late blooming guard, who then makes it big in the NBA.
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bkhoya
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Post by bkhoya on Oct 23, 2014 10:32:05 GMT -5
I'd still say the stigma attached to a team running a version of the Princeton offense is the primary reason it's harder for the Hoyas to get a PG. Because that offense doesn't require a true PG. Your PF is probably more likely to lead the team in assists than your PG and if you're a PG with legitimate NBA aspirations, not getting those numbers is something to seriously consider.
Now JT3 isn't a dummy, he realizes this, which is why he started the Georgetown offense campaign and you are seeing much more freedom and ball control responsibility than before. But fighting the negative stereotypes about not having the ability to be creative is tough to overcome. I'm struggling with that decision with my own son in questioning if I should put him in a very solid development program but they run the Princeton but my son is a PG. Up to this point I've resisted it, but they teach other things like defense, playing with intensity and rebounding that I value and he's at the age where he could still play with other teams throughout the year that will let him be more creative and not run these read and react cuts. But a big time college basketball player doesn't have that option. He can play in Princeton in HS but run with an AAU teams that is completely different. So it's more important that they get the system right.
I certainly hope PJ sees the current offensive freedom and doesnt get caught up in the preconceived notions about the offense. I think he's one of the most important players Georgetown has recruited because coach has to be able to bring in NBA caliber guards and to actually put one of them in the league in addition to getting past the 1st weekend of the tournament. If those two things bring through I think it would greatly enhance the ability of the program to attract additional gurards.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Oct 23, 2014 10:56:52 GMT -5
All I'm saying is that I've counted at least 16 guards or guard like recruits (PG-SF) that have passed on GU. That's pretty alarming! I will admit I have high expectation and I also agree with shaking the bush to find quality recruits, but my patience is getting thin. We are the flagship of the Big East, we put quality players in the NBA but we also provide a quality education to fall back on. What is it about GU that is so unappealing? To be fair we have studs who just arrived at the hilltop at the sg, sf, and pf positions. If I were a '15 recruit at one of those positions I'd think twice too. On top of that we have a top 50 center arriving next year. The only position we are trully struggling with is at pg. Finally, we have to start winning. We aren't going to land many mcd AA's by losing to FGCU and following it up by not making the tourney. Winning cures everything. Exactly. This season could very well start us on the way.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Oct 23, 2014 11:02:53 GMT -5
For what it's worth, at the media day yesterday DSR was quoted saying that he expected the offense to play at a quicker pace this year. I don't think DSR would say that if JT3 wasn't stressing that aspect in practice, but it is also reflective of the fact that we have much better and more athletic talent this year than we had last year.
I do think perception is a bigger problem than reality on the recruiting front. We do not run a textbook Princeton offense, and we certainly did not do that last year (or when Wright/Freeman were seniors), but the perception is out there among scouts, etc. I think it's good that JT3 calls it the "Georgetown offense," but if we really are going to run a faster offense, I think JT3 should go out there and say it so that the perception can change.
On recruiting, I agree with blueandgray, winning pretty much trumps everything. We had no problem recruiting after the Final Four, and ironically, those years were among those where we probably stuck to Princeton offense principles the most.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Oct 23, 2014 11:27:04 GMT -5
All I'm saying is that I've counted at least 16 guards or guard like recruits (PG-SF) that have passed on GU. That's pretty alarming! I will admit I have high expectation and I also agree with shaking the bush to find quality recruits, but my patience is getting thin. We are the flagship of the Big East, we put quality players in the NBA but we also provide a quality education to fall back on. What is it about GU that is so unappealing? I guarantee you we've been interested in and not had that interest returned on a lot more than 16, and that the number there is higher basically every single year. Recruiting is a game of numbers. Even putting aside lower level schools, there are probably 120+ schools that we truly compete against for recruits. I imagine we send out hundreds of feelers for every class, and only really strongly find mutual interest in a fraction of that for each position. Once there is mutual interest, we're almost always one of three to ten schools with similar credentials and different positives and negatives. Which all goes to my point that going 1 for 10 isn't that unusual for any program of our stature. Which is generally a Top 25 but not a Top 10 program. Yeah, it's not great that we are 0 for whatever (though defining what we are 0 for could be anything from about 0-5 to 0-200) this year but it's also kind of silly to not mention that our current freshman class grabbed an NBA-talent 2 guard in LJ Peak and a PG in Tre Campbell. With DSR very possibly staying four years simply because he's neither overly tall nor overly athletic -- and his most likely route to the NBA is showing some level of PG skills, there's not a ton of PG time in 15-16 (if he stays). Recruits do look at that, too. I'm not saying trust the staff. I'm simply saying that you miss on many more than you hit. You don't even see most of the misses. And you can't really evaluate until the class is fully signed -- and even then you should really see how their careers play out.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Oct 23, 2014 11:33:36 GMT -5
All I'm saying is that I've counted at least 16 guards or guard like recruits (PG-SF) that have passed on GU. That's pretty alarming! I will admit I have high expectation and I also agree with shaking the bush to find quality recruits, but my patience is getting thin. We are the flagship of the Big East, we put quality players in the NBA but we also provide a quality education to fall back on. What is it about GU that is so unappealing? I guarantee you we've been interested in and not had that interest returned on a lot more than 16, and that the number there is higher basically every single year. Recruiting is a game of numbers. Even putting aside lower level schools, there are probably 120+ schools that we truly compete against for recruits. I imagine we send out hundreds of feelers for every class, and only really strongly find mutual interest in a fraction of that for each position. Once there is mutual interest, we're almost always one of three to ten schools with similar credentials and different positives and negatives. Which all goes to my point that going 1 for 10 isn't that unusual for any program of our stature. Which is generally a Top 25 but not a Top 10 program. Yeah, it's not great that we are 0 for whatever (though defining what we are 0 for could be anything from about 0-5 to 0-200) this year but it's also kind of silly to not mention that our current freshman class grabbed an NBA-talent 2 guard in LJ Peak and a PG in Tre Campbell. With DSR very possibly staying four years simply because he's neither overly tall nor overly athletic -- and his most likely route to the NBA is showing some level of PG skills, there's not a ton of PG time in 15-16 (if he stays). Recruits do look at that, too. I'm not saying trust the staff. I'm simply saying that you miss on many more than you hit. You don't even see most of the misses. And you can't really evaluate until the class is fully signed -- and even then you should really see how their careers play out. SF what are you talking about? You know very well that we can collectively and accurately evaluate a recruiting class based on blurry 27 second phone videos of each recruit on our radar!
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