MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 1, 2005 11:04:14 GMT -5
I find all of the 1980 talk intriguing. Do you guys think without that run that year or without JT's turnaround of the program overall, Georgetown would have been invited to join the Big East? Since the BE was interested in the D.C. market perhaps they would have gone after a George Washington instead. GW isn't a Catholic school but neither was/is Syracuse.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 1, 2005 11:15:18 GMT -5
I find all of the 1980 talk intriguing. Do you guys think without that run that year or without JT's turnaround of the program overall, Georgetown would have been invited to join the Big East? Since the BE was interested in the D.C. market perhaps they would have gone after a George Washington instead. GW isn't a Catholic school but neither was/is Syracuse. JT2 was one the guys who help organize the Big East with Dave Gavit. G'town was a great program around that time. JT was a heck of coach, but he was also a shrewd business man.
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HoyaChris
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Post by HoyaChris on Apr 1, 2005 11:26:44 GMT -5
I find all of the 1980 talk intriguing. Do you guys think without that run that year or without JT's turnaround of the program overall, Georgetown would have been invited to join the Big East? Since the BE was interested in the D.C. market perhaps they would have gone after a George Washington instead. GW isn't a Catholic school but neither was/is Syracuse. 1979-80 was the first year of the Big East. It was a seven team league in the first year that played one game against 6 other opponents. GTown, St Johns and Syracuse tied for the regular season championship with St Johns winning at Georgetown, Syracuse winning at St Johns and Georgetown winning at Syracuse to close down Manley Field House.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Apr 1, 2005 12:09:21 GMT -5
Good off season topic. Of course, any time you get to one win from the Final Four and don't make it.... that is going to be disappointing. That said, for me the most disappointing was 1980. Yes, we lost to Iowa. And, we had a 14 pt. lead in the second half. Lost the game by one point. Team had Craig Shelton Johnny Duren and Sleepy Floyd. JT-Pops had been the coach for about 6-7 seasons and was building toward this. SHelton and Duren were seniors -- their last chance. Getting from 3-23 the year before JT to the elite eight -- WOW! that was big. No one had expected it. And there we were just moments away from taking our first trip to the final four since the NCAA's became the nation's #1 tournament decades before. It was a VERY tough loss. For me, the most disappointing of the four. SirSaxa, its nice to know that I was not the only one with dark thoughts about Ronnie Lester reinjuring that bum knee of his during that 1980 game so that he would not score anymore on the Hoyas. That was indeed the toughest lost of the four, the Hoyas had balance with Duren, Smith and Sleepy at guards and Shelton inside. I think the defensive style employed by the Hoyas would have overwelmed UCLA or Louisville. Tough, tough lost.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Apr 1, 2005 12:56:18 GMT -5
Anytime you lose with so much on the line it's a disappointing end to the season, but I'd rank '89 as the lowest point simply because we peaked too soon in BET and never played the to the level we were capable of playing. Zo gets in foul trouble against Laettner and Duke, Smitty wasn't himself entire NCAA's although had some gutty performances, and we waste a terrific effort by Jonathan Edwards off the bench--he almost led us back for the win. That team would've walked away with NCAA title if it had gotten past Duke. As for '80, Ronnie Lester and Vince Brookins went off and if Lester hadn't gotten injured, Iowa could've very well won the National Title. Lester was a terrific player who was hampered by that injury and never returned to the level of player he was before the injury. '87 was a fun year--and disappointing in that we lost to Providence but I believe we split 4 games with them that season--they won at home and in NCAA's we won at home and in BET. Reggie carried that team as far as he could and we had Bryant and Tillmon as FR guards. Our NCAA run was almost ended against Ohio State and Gary Williams in 2nd Round but we rallied back from 18 down in 2nd Half behind Charles Smith---it was his breakout game and the infamous JT to Smith "peptalk game" WE WILL RECRUIT OVER YOU if you don't step up and play. He came up huge--I think he had 22 pts and most if not all were in 2nd Half. '96 team was very talented and I have to back up what most said--that loss to UConn was far more painful to me. We had the BET wrapped up and then played not to lose instead of to win. Iverson shouldn't have had the ball either as Victor Page was unreal in BET--he was named MVP of BET despite playing on losing team. He should've gotten the last shot and how Jerome Williams missed that last shot I'll never know---Ray Allen even mentioned Jerome's miss on BET telecast this year recapping "Best Games in BET History". That team could play some awesome basketball but didn't play enough defense and UMass just carved them up in Regional Final. That Hoya team was a funny one because it ended up about where I expected, but they were the one team I thought would've really challenged Kentucky (eventual Champ and LOADED with talent) in Final 4. If you want to talk about the most underachieving Hoya team--I still point to 1990 season---that team should've been at LEAST an Elite 8 team and lost to Xavier in OT. Mark Tillmon was outstanding, Dwyane Bryant improved his jumper, Zo and Mutombo were outstanding together, had David Edwards who was a nice backup point, and some experience with Sam Jefferson, Anthony Allen, etcc...and we just stunk in big games. Cuse punked us in DC, UConn beat us twice, and we just GAVE Cuse the game at end of season at the Dome with the foul that I still don't believe--Jefferson fouling Billy Owens in final seconds for no reason and with Hoyas up by 2. UGH I'd also put the team in Mike's last year that nearly won NIT as a huge disappointment. That team was good enough to not only make the NCAA's but should've been a Sweet 16 team--it had every ingredient you needed and just stunk in tight games---for many reasons.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 1, 2005 13:06:33 GMT -5
Just to follow-up, I think the 2000-2001 team, although a sweet sixteen team, was a major disappointment. That team was DEEP with talented at every position except point-guard. If we had better coaching, that was final four team, at least. I can't believe Maryland beat us that game if you just compare the talent levels of both teams. I knew we would lose to Maryland before the game would start because I knew Gary Williams would outcoach Esh by a mile.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 1, 2005 13:13:48 GMT -5
JT2 was one the guys who help organize the Big East with Dave Gavit. G'town was a great program around that time. JT was a heck of coach, but he was also a shrewd business man. John Thompson did not organize the Big East. Frank Rienzo (along with Dave Gavitt at Providence, Jack Kaiser at St. John's, and Jake Crouthamel at Syracuse) gets the credit. Would the Big East have taken Georgetown without its success in the 1970's? It's a circular question since GU was among its founders, but supposing that GU was not in the mix, the Big East would probably have gone no further south than Philadelphia--remember, GW had already committed to the Eastern 8 by this time. At that time, Georgetown was in the ECAC South, later to become the Colonial Athletic Association. It's hard to play "what-if" if there was no Big East, because a lot of the program's history is so closely tied to the exposure of the league sicne 1979.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 1, 2005 13:16:40 GMT -5
John Thompson did not organize the Big East. Frank Rienzo (along with Dave Gavitt at Providence, Jack Kaiser at St. John's, and Jake Crouthamel at Syracuse) gets the credit. Would the Big East have taken Georgetown without its success in the 1970's? It's a circular question since GU was among its founders, but supposing that GU was not in the mix, the Big East would probably have gone no further south than Philadelphia--remember, GW had already committed to the Eastern 8 by this time. At that time, Georgetown was in the ECAC South, later to become the Colonial Athletic Association. It's hard to play "what-if" if there was no Big East, because a lot of the program's history is so closely tied to the exposure of the league sicne 1979. I didn't say John Thompson organized the Big East. I said he helped organize it. We were a major player because of JT2's success in building the program. We weren't going to be in the Big East if we were just a run of the mill program.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Apr 1, 2005 13:16:47 GMT -5
I find all of the 1980 talk intriguing. Do you guys think without that run that year or without JT's turnaround of the program overall, Georgetown would have been invited to join the Big East? Since the BE was interested in the D.C. market perhaps they would have gone after a George Washington instead. GW isn't a Catholic school but neither was/is Syracuse. Without JT -- we never would have been in the BE. In Fact, there may never have been a Big East. JT and Frank Rienzo were key players in bringing it to life. But even aside from that, GU was not a basketball program before JT. We were a small, east coast Catholic school that played some hoops. We hired a HIGH SCHOOL coach to revive our "program"! for gosh sakes! That is what GU was. We were just lucky that HS coach was so damn determined to build GU and take us to much greater heights than ANYONE ever anticipated. And that is why 1980 was so disappointing. We almost made the Final Four and would have had a shot at a national title. All the other disappointments happened after we already that national title, multiple Final Four appearances, and a coach who had proven he could take us there... no reason to think he couldn't do it again.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 1, 2005 13:43:31 GMT -5
Let's be fair to the pre-72 crowd. Georgetown was a scholarship Division I program and had been since its founding. It played Eastern "name" schools of the day and was not a "small" school as was a Fairfield or a Mt. St. Mary's.
Was it dominant? No, but none of the region's teams were dominant in the 1950's and 60's. Maryland was an underperformer as was GW. Virginia was a regular tenant in the ACC cellar.
Was it competitive? Yes. If it wasn't capable of success, John Thompson would not have considered it.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 1, 2005 14:05:37 GMT -5
Let's be fair to the pre-72 crowd. Georgetown was a scholarship Division I program and had been since its founding. It played Eastern "name" schools of the day and was not a "small" school as was a Fairfield or a Mt. St. Mary's. Was it dominant? No, but none of the region's teams were dominant in the 1950's and 60's. Maryland was an underperformer as was GW. Virginia was a regular tenant in the ACC cellar. Was it competitive? Yes. If it wasn't capable of success, John Thompson would not have considered it. John Thompson considered it because of his belief in his own ability to create sucess there. He was told just to take the team to a couple of NIT's here and there. He knew with his own abilities he could make a National power out of this program. Nobody but JT2 himself thought that. Now at the time, he said that was some arrogance on his part, but he strongly believed he could make it a National power. I don't think he thought G'town was gold mine. I think he thought he could turn it into one.
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Post by FHillsNYHoya on Apr 1, 2005 14:12:51 GMT -5
Personally, I'm going with '89. Didn't follow GU hoops that closely until I was a freshman in fall of '88. After the Thompson-led USA Olympians fell short of the gold early that semester, everyone was excited to see JT II take out his frustrations on the Big East and the rest of the country. Still remember when 'Zo entered our first exhibition game at McDonough as a freshman (he didn't start, actually) and the excitement in the building. Many big games that year - believe we were undefeated until a loss at SHU at the Meadowlands, and remember at least two other losses (against LSU and against Pitt) where we would have been ranked #1 had we won the game.
The BET that year was electric. What a pasting we put on the 'Cuse in the final, and we were all riding high going into the NCAA.
Once we avoided the stunning upset v. Princeton, we took care of Notre Dame and NC State to get to the regional final, Easter Sunday. I was at the Meadowlands, and was just crushed when our rally against Duke ultimately fell short. As others have said, we can only wonder what would have been had Smitty been entirely healthy. If I remember correctly, Jaren Jackson had just a brutal day shooting - had he put up his usual numbers, we probably are cutting down the nets.
However, 1996 was also very memorable for me - my wedding day. I convinced my fiancee to move the date of the wedding to March 23 (rather than the 30th), to avoid the Final Four, which was held at the Meadowlands that year. My reception ended at 6:00 p.m. - basically the start time for our game v. UMass. Rather than miss any of the game, one of my groomsmen's fathers taped the first half of the game, and brought it to the hotel we were all staying at (while normal guests partied in the bar downstairs, about 20 of us were in my brother's room, watching the tape). We watched the first half in one of the rooms on tape while the second half was happening live. A fellow talkboard poster's dad (dTRAIN) then came to the hotel with the second half tape after the game had ended. While I was disappointed with the result, it was a very memorable day for me, and my wife jokingly refers to the day as "The GU/UMass Regional Final" day.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Apr 1, 2005 14:35:28 GMT -5
Let's be fair to the pre-72 crowd. Georgetown was a scholarship Division I program and had been since its founding. It played Eastern "name" schools of the day and was not a "small" school as was a Fairfield or a Mt. St. Mary's. Was it dominant? No, but none of the region's teams were dominant in the 1950's and 60's. Maryland was an underperformer as was GW. Virginia was a regular tenant in the ACC cellar. Was it competitive? Yes. If it wasn't capable of success, John Thompson would not have considered it. DFW..didn't mean to short change the pre-'72 crowd. Just to emphasize the huge gulf between pre-JT and '72 onward. Afterall, '70 was so notable precisely because it was a great achievement to get into the NIT. And that great year was followed by a steep drop. I was thinking of east coast programs (not just DC/VA/MD) that were well ahead of us at that time .. like the BIG 5 in Philly, catholic schools LaSalle, St. Joe's and 'Nova. They would regularly be ranked. Nova went to the NCAA final with Howard Porter (even though it was found later he'd signed with an agent.). Providence had Jimmy Walker, Ernie D, Marvin Barnes. St. John's was far more successful that GU. The Cuse had Dave Bing. Heck... even Niagra with Calvin Murphy, or St. Bonaventure with Bob Lanier. We were not in the same class. Penn was good -- Dave Wohl. Regular Ivy Champs. Princeton had Bill Bradley and a Final Four team. Later, Brian Taylor. Geoff Petrie. Even COLUMBIA! Had Heywood Dotson and Jim McMillian! On the other hand... we took a huge and very admirable step by hiring a local, black coach to give him an opportunity and strengthen our ties to the community. Little did anyone know how JT would repay GU for that opportunity. My point was simply that without JT, there is no way that GU would have been included in the BE, if one was even formed.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 1, 2005 16:58:12 GMT -5
I find all of the 1980 talk intriguing. Do you guys think without that run that year or without JT's turnaround of the program overall, Georgetown would have been invited to join the Big East? Since the BE was interested in the D.C. market perhaps they would have gone after a George Washington instead. GW isn't a Catholic school but neither was/is Syracuse. Yes, they would have been invited, because the guys who conceived/invented the Big East were Dave Gavitt and Frank Rienzo, with help from Jake Crouthamel.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Apr 1, 2005 18:00:51 GMT -5
Yes, they would have been invited, because the guys who conceived/invented the Big East were Dave Gavitt and Frank Rienzo, with help from Jake Crouthamel. Dan, If JT had not turned the program around, Rienzo never would have been included either. Thus. no invitation.
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Post by Frank Black on Apr 2, 2005 9:54:32 GMT -5
FHillsNY: Your wife should be canonized. I'm trying to imagine watching a basketball game on my wedding day. No matter the importance, my wife (whose patience for my sports mania I consider unique and wonderful) would have murdered me if I had pulled what you did.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 2, 2005 10:21:45 GMT -5
If JT had not turned the program around, Rienzo never would have been included either. Thus. no invitation. Georgetown had an invitation because it was a founder. Would Georgetown be in the Big East without Thompson? Probably--here's why. As I've heard it, the original driver for the Big East was not TV or getting the best seven teams together, but scheduling. The ECAC was putting in new rules that tried to get the 40 or 50 independents into setting up home and away series within their region (South, MidAtlantic, Upstate, New York, and New England) and not among other regions of the East. Thus, Georgetown was getting pressure to play more of the ECAC South teams, which at the time included Old Dominion, VCU, Catholic (which was D-I at the time), Loyola, Richmond, American, William & Mary, James Madison, and Navy, and less from other regions like St. John's, BC, etc. St. John's was feeling it too in their regions, as was Providence and Syracuse. A school like Syracuse knew they could never join the national elite with a schedule full of teams such as Colgate, Niagara, St. Bonaventure and Canisius. How long would Georgetown have been able to keep John Thompson if it was mandated into series with VCU, Navy, Catholic and Old Dominion? The original arrangement was scheduling, and then it turned to getting a similalrly situated independent in each media market. Since GW was already in the Eastern 8, the founders probably would have looked to Georgetown whether the record was 24-5 or 15-14, and Georgetown, eager to protect long held rivalries with these schools, would have been receptive to joining. But would it have been a founder without Frank Rienzo? I don't think Rienzo gets enough credit for helping shape the conference and allowing Thompson to grow at Georgetown.
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NJHoya95
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Post by NJHoya95 on Apr 2, 2005 12:25:26 GMT -5
No question 89. An absolute killer for us. As a sophmore in high school, I sat in the GU student section because a friend from my hometown in Jersey in the class of 89 got me tickets. Thankfully I got absolution from Easter dinner. A gorgeous day, sunny and 70 degrees. Never did I think we would lose to the Dukies. The stupid Blue Devil had a headband that read, "G'Town in Mourning." I'll never forget that Phil Henderson dunk over Alonzo. I have been mourning that loss ever since.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 2, 2005 16:02:47 GMT -5
SirSaxa - of course. But who hired JTII?
DFW is right - this never would have happened without Frank Rienzo.
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HoyaChris
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Post by HoyaChris on Apr 3, 2005 7:39:33 GMT -5
Some more perspective on the 1980 team.
During last night's national semifinals,Billy Packer said (I believe) that in the history of college basketball only 48 teams had had four 1,000 point scorers on the roster at the same time and that each of this years final four teams was in that category. For Georgetown, the 1979-80 team that lost in the elite 8 was one of those teams.
John Duren 1587 Craig Shelton 1409 (in essentially3 seasons because of injury) Eric Floyd (2 Yrs) 1078 Al Dutch 1025
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