SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 19, 2014 9:14:46 GMT -5
8 tossed for brawl 2 seconds into NHL Gameespn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/10316780/vancouver-canucks-calgary-flames-brawl-2-seconds-gameIs there anyone out there who still believes the NHL is anything but a joke? Can you imagine this happening in any other sport? I'm not talking about hockey - which is a fast and exciting game. Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing Olympic Hockey soon - just great. But the NHL has been a minor league for decades and this insanity with encouraging fighting is at the top of the list of reasons why. Disgraceful.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 20, 2014 11:16:42 GMT -5
You'd have a good point if this were actually representative of the full NHL. It wasn't: it was pretty much all John Tortarella - and I agree, he needs a major suspension and fine.
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One
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Post by One on Jan 20, 2014 16:57:48 GMT -5
Yes, I can imagine this happening in another sport, even if Peter Gammons can't. Just last season, I watched replays of Zack Grienke get his collar bone broken in similar meathead fashion. To my knowledge, however, no players (prominent or otherwise) were injured in the NHL's version of stupid on Saturday night. Calgary's coach should be suspended, and Vancouver was just following the example set by its idiot coach (as Blueshirts fans can attest). But it was by no means representative of the league as a whole.
Contrast Saturday night with Sunday morning/early afternoon: Hawks-Bruins was a matchup of two excellent teams with probably a fair amout of distaste for each other after last season's Stanley Cup final. But the players played hard between the whistles and the game was fast and physical. As good a regular season game as you will find. It was far more representative of what the NHL is about and where it's going, and dinosaurs like Brian Burke in Calgary and Torts in Vancouver become less and less relevant every year. (Flyers are exempt from my broad generalization as I don't think they will ever abandon the Broad Street Bullies mentality.)
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 21, 2014 18:05:35 GMT -5
Didn't Grienke get hurt in the 6th inning? After a Quentin got hit by a pitch? Not a great thing to happen for MLB, but not the same as two teams walking on the field and as soon as the ump says "Play Ball" they immediately rush at each other and start a big fight? OH, and these wouldn't be each team's starting 9 - they would be a bunch of goons whose only role on their teams is to fight.
Though I stopped watching NHL games a while ago, and haven't attended one in a few years, I can't remember going to or viewing a game in which a fight did not break out at some point. And when one does, everyone - including refs and linesmen - stand and watch until the fighters get tired out.
As far as I know, this hasn't changed in NHL hockey. They even let their best players -- e.g. Sidney Crosby, Brian Leetch, many others over the years -- get beaten up, even concussed. Is that really what fans pay to see?
I am sure there are good players and teams in the NHL, but the league as a whole is a joke and has been for a long time. They don't just tolerate fighting, they encourage it. Skaters have jobs based solely on their ability to be their team's hitmen/goons. It is absurd. No other sport has that, though occasionally things might get out of hand at a baseball, basketball or football game, fights are not de rigueur. Not orchestrated. Not part of the game plan.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 21, 2014 21:42:13 GMT -5
If you're not actually watching the games, you may have a jaundiced view of what actually happens in them. Just curious, were you against Ali-Frazier too? OK, I withdraw the question.
Of course what happened the other night was absurd/disgraceful. But it's not representative of NHL hockey as a whole. Most teams (the good ones at least) wouldn't waste 5 roster spots on a bunch of goons whose only job it is to fight. Sidney Crosby also probably isn't a great example - he plays on the edge cheap shots players all the time and his team has a couple of tough guys who step in and take the heat for him. If you had watched the Stanley Cup Finals last year you'd realize your blanket condemnation doesn't really apply.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 21, 2014 23:59:49 GMT -5
Funny you should mention Ali-Frazier. I am a big boxing fan. In fact just the other night the most amazing thing happened. I went to see a boxing match and right in the middle a hockey game broke out! (OK, an old joke but you provided the lead in).
Back to the rest of your post and "most teams don't have 5 thugs." How many thugs do they have? I guess you are also suggesting if I'd only wait until the Stanley Cup Finals, there is some real hockey that is actually worth watching? As opposed to the crap/fighting nonsense you get all the rest of the year?
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 22, 2014 10:01:26 GMT -5
I was reluctant to join this conversation because I'm not sure there is a point to making a counterargument against such a one-sided opinion, but, well, it's 9 degrees out and I really don't feel like going out there and shoveling for the fourth time in the last 12 hours. Plus, typing keeps my fingers warm.
1. First of all, the premise that the NHL is "a joke" and "a minor league," is simply not credible from an objective standpoint. Do the NBDL or AAA baseball have national network and cable TV contracts? Moreover the NHL's attendance and TV ratings have never been better. About half the league is averaging 100% attendance or better this year (compared to only 8 teams in the NBA, by the way). Regional TV ratings are at record highs. I am not sure how you are defining "minor league," but the NHL is not one, by any reasonable standard. If the league is a joke to you, that is certainly an opinion you are entitled to, but it is really not a very defensible one.
2. By your admission, you rarely, if ever, watch NHL hockey because of this sort of thing (For the moment, let's deal with this particular incident & will talk about fighting in general later). But if you did watch NHL hockey even occasionally, you would probably notice that this sort of thing simply does not happen anymore on anything that could even remotely be considered a regular basis. This would be like me saying the the NBA is a joke because JR Smith is untying player's shoes. I am not 100% certain on this, but of more than half of the season's games played all season, I can recall only two incidents that would be considered this type of melee (multiple players fighting at the same time). Hardly representative of what the league is about or what it is "encouraging."
3. The stereotypical "goon" is a dinosaur in the NHL. That type of player is certainly not extinct, but he is more of a rarity than a standard. Teams in the NHL which want to be successful simply do not waste roster spots on players who are only there to fight and can do little else. When they do put those players on the roster, they pay for it. Take the two most successful teams in the NHL last year: Chicago and Boston. Who are the goons on those teams? Brian Bollig for the Hawks is a fighter, sure, but the Blackhawks keep him on not for his fighting skills but because he is a strong, physical player. He delivers hard hits and grinding play, much more valuable than his fists. (He doesn't even fight that much anymore.) Boston's Shawn Thornton is probably the candidate on that roster. He has 46 PIM this year. And ask anyone around the NHL about Boston's fourth line: they are one of the team's most valued assets, not because of fighting, but because of strong physical play and their ability to, yes, score goals. In fact, Milan Lucic is probably Boston's most feared fighter. Milan Lucic also happens to be one of the most talented power forwards in the league and an All-Star. The era of Tie Domi in the NHL is over. Yes, as has been mentioned a team like Pittsburgh, with a superstar like Sidney Crosby will keep on an enforcer or two to help protect him. And most teams have some enforcers in their organization, if not on their NHL roster too often, for certain occasions. But teams who throw a player (or worse multiple players) on the ice on a regular basis who can do little more than fight? Those are teams that lose. And lose regularly. Ask most coaches and they will say they drool when they see players like that on the opposing bench, because they know they will get lots of scoring chances when they are on the ice.
4. But OK, fighting is still a part of the NHL game. It's not a major part of the game that much anymore, averaging somewhere around 0.75 per game (and many of those aren't much at all, but enough to draw the fighting major penalty). So, I might argue the point the league is "encouraging" it, but the league does accept it and isn't doing much to eliminate it entirely. This alone may be reason enough for you to dismiss the NHL as a joke and tune it out forever. You are perfectly entitled to do so and you are not alone. But 90% of hockey fights are more or less harmless. It is not unheard of, but few players involved in fights get seriously injured (black eyes, broken noses and the like, but nothing that makes players miss games). Moreover, most fights are also consensual. If one of two players doesn't want to fight, a fight isn't going to happen. It is mostly a motivational tactic more than anything else. And, well, it does tend to work as such. Personally, I am not a fan of fighting in hockey. Mainly because I'd rather see Milan Lucic on the ice for Boston and a threat to score rather than sitting in the box for 5 minutes. I think the league probably could do a little more to make fighting more of a risk to the player and team. And I wouldn't be opposed to that. But frankly, I'd rather see the league focus more on true player injury risks (for example, the league has done a lot to try to minimize head injuries, but player helmets remain woefully inadequate and that should certainly be addressed). For the reasons I just pointed out, I am not sure I buy the argument that fighting serves as a deterrent for cheap and dirty play (far more detrimental to the league), but players and teams feel that it does. As long as that is the case, I don't think the league will try to hard to eliminate fighting completely. Also because fans still like it, even if not all of them will admit it.
So anyway, I am not sure I accomplished much more here than hearing myself talk for a while, but I think the premise of this initial post in this thread is completely wrong and these are some of the reasons why.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 22, 2014 14:38:31 GMT -5
I was reluctant to join this conversation because I'm not sure there is a point to making a counterargument against such a one-sided opinion, but, well, it's 9 degrees out and I really don't feel like going out there and shoveling for the fourth time in the last 12 hours. Plus, typing keeps my fingers warm. Protip: Don't shovel until its done snowing. Also, it seems hypocritical to ignore a sport because of fighting but watch a sport that features hard objects thrown 90+ mph at people.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 22, 2014 15:36:30 GMT -5
Funny you should mention Ali-Frazier. I am a big boxing fan. In fact just the other night the most amazing thing happened. I went to see a boxing match and right in the middle a hockey game broke out! (OK, an old joke but you provided the lead in). Back to the rest of your post and "most teams don't have 5 thugs." How many thugs do they have? I guess you are also suggesting if I'd only wait until the Stanley Cup Finals, there is some real hockey that is actually worth watching? As opposed to the crap/fighting nonsense you get all the rest of the year? Nice try, thanks for playing. To your queries: 1. I used the '5 thugs' quoting you. For the answer to your question, read this (point 2). 2. Your interpretation is incorrect: I used last year's finals as an example of two excellent teams who play physical hockey that is exceedingly entertaining to watch. And yes, there were even a couple of fights in those games. Find a replay of the Blackhawks - Bruins regular season game from last week. That's just one example of what you're missing. 3. As someone who "stopped watching NHL games a while ago, and haven't attended one in a few years" you are using one aberrant episode that nobody condones to paint a broad brush over something you haven't even observed. Extending your logic, we should probably shut down major league baseball because there were several games last year where the teams had full-on brawls. It's awesome when it's done in 20 x 20 ring on a 3 foot platform though.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jan 22, 2014 20:16:42 GMT -5
Bring back the Hanson Brothers!
Sir Saxa, your view of hockey used to be my view - about 20 years ago. It didn't seem as though I could ever put on a hockey game without seeing a fight within five minutes. It disgusted me, and I just stopped watching. Now I'm still not a big hockey fan, but I'll tune in to a Kings or Ducks game occasionally, and anecdotally, the incidence of fighting seems way down. It would be interesting if Boz or one of the other big hockey fans on the board could produce statistics on fights per game and fighting penalty minutes per game in the 80's or 90's as compared to today.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 22, 2014 21:23:31 GMT -5
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 22, 2014 22:49:59 GMT -5
Of course I know I made a blanket assessment and I freely admitted I no longer watch NHL games, and I said why. is it possible things have changed drastically? If so, then why did we read about this absurdity in Vancouver. But some of the arguments in defense of this league I find less than persuasive. "fighting keeps the game clean" Really? I thought that's what the penalty box was for. Fighting doesn't keep the NFL clean, and I'm sure a lot of nasty stuff goes on in their trenches. How many strikes/lockouts has the NHL had over the last 20 year? At least 4 I believe. And not insignificant ones. They lost an entire season. Other leagues have had strikes, but I can't think of one that comes close to the NHL's experiences in quantity and length. And when the missed an entire season? No one cared. OK, maybe a few of you on the board cared, but most sports fans did not. The NHL was never on a par with MLB, NFL and NBA, but they were at least in the conversation. No longer. Not on the same level as the other three, each of which has far outstripped the NHL. So yes, I am 100% aware that I made a blanket statement. I overstated the case. Although I also read an equally indefensible statement: But interestingly, even at it's peak, fighting was not as prevalent as perceptions would lead you to believe. Now how could you possibly know that? If the league had abolished fighting, that melee in Vancouver would not have happened. An extreme example? Undoubtedly. But Hockey is a great, exciting, fast game that requires a lot of skill, balance, athleticism, etc. All one needs to do is watch college hockey and especially Olympic hockey to appreciate the sport. The NHL? Not for me. And no, I am not really a boxing fan either. It just made the joke work. It's obvious some feathers were ruffled by my comments. If all of you wish to continue to be NHL fans, so be it. But let's not pretend the NHL is on a par with the other major sports and that fighting isn't accepted and embraced as part of the "entertainment package" of the NHL. BTW, seems like Richard Sherman agrees with me. Whether you like the guy or not, it's pretty hard to refute what he had to say: ExcerptsSherman was most concerned by the people who called him a thug.
"The reason it bothers me is it seems that's the accepted way now to call someone the N-word," Sherman said. "They say thug, and that takes me aback. Maybe I'm talking loudly on the field and saying things I'm not supposed to, but there was hockey game where they didn't even play hockey. They just threw the puck aside and started fighting. I thought, 'Oh man. I'm the thug? Geez.'" espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2013/story/_/id/10334062/super-bowl-xlviii-richard-sherman-seattle-seahawks-says-not-villain
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 23, 2014 0:54:59 GMT -5
Keep digging that hole, Saxa, you're bound to come out the other end eventually.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 23, 2014 7:54:29 GMT -5
Yeah, that's pretty much the response I expected. Kind of why I wasn't going to post in the first place.
I'm not going to argue on and on. But since I was quoted,I'll simply respond to that.
The perception to which which I was referring was the stated one that you "couldn't watch five minutes of an NHL game without a fight." (And I used the plural because I felt that this was a common perception, something I really didn't think was a stretch to claim.) When in fact, the NHL averaged a little more than one fight per game.
But anyway, please enjoy your non-NHL watching life. Lots of other options out there. Your loss, IMO.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jan 23, 2014 22:34:18 GMT -5
Yeah, that's pretty much the response I expected. Kind of why I wasn't going to post in the first place. I'm not going to argue on and on. But since I was quoted,I'll simply respond to that. The perception to which which I was referring was the stated one that you "couldn't watch five minutes of an NHL game without a fight." (And I used the plural because I felt that this was a common perception, something I really didn't think was a stretch to claim.) When in fact, the NHL averaged a little more than one fight per game. But anyway, please enjoy your non-NHL watching life. Lots of other options out there. Your loss, IMO. That "5 minute" reference was mine, not SirSaxa's. And I defended your position. So thanks for that.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 24, 2014 10:42:57 GMT -5
Sorry, the overall post was in response to SirSaxa, yes, but the "you" in that sense was meant to be more impersonal (e.g. "one" or "a person" couldn't watch a game...etc., etc.) I regret my use of pronoun.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 27, 2014 8:26:27 GMT -5
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jan 27, 2014 18:29:03 GMT -5
Nah. If this were a real fight, in a game where men were men, it would have commenced half a second into the action.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Feb 15, 2014 10:36:10 GMT -5
Do you Believe in Oshie
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jun 1, 2014 9:57:04 GMT -5
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