eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Nov 8, 2013 23:26:35 GMT -5
Just an observation on this board from someone who has followed for many years. Look at the number of posts around each game and after each game game compared to prior years and you'll clearly see people have given up on this.
I'm a supporter of this program but don't believe we have a future if the school won't commit to the program financially. I'm of the opinion that if Georgetown can't put up a comparable budget to Lehigh, Lafayette and others than we don't belong in that fight. I don't claim to understand the economics of all that is involved but does not make sense to me that rural PA schools can contribute more to football that we can.
One thing I can say is I have stopped donating to football (proverbial Editeding in the wind) only because I don't see a future in this. I'd be happy to contribute to a program that committed to real I-AA football and could compete but don't see it. I'm a finance guy and continue to scratch my head that our football program lags behind so many other budget from schools that shouldn't have such a budget.
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Post by puppydog100 on Nov 8, 2013 23:57:18 GMT -5
eagle 54, could not have said it better. It's time the GU administration and AD gave our outstanding student athletes a level playing field.
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Post by indianhoop on Nov 9, 2013 0:33:59 GMT -5
I can't begin to make sense of the finances (I'm an academic by trade lol) but supposedly (via posts here and elsewhere by DFW) it's too much of an investment for GTown. How it is for GTown and not say Holy Cross or Lafayette, I really have no idea.
The long and short of it, I think GTown thought it would be good for the school to play football against Princeton, Yale etc. and be in a league with the likes of Colgate, Bucknell etc. but now that both the Ivies (H-Y-P anyway) and PL schools are investing more $$$ into football it has caught GTown in a bind i.e. they like the association of the Hoyas playing D1 football against these schools but now that it's costing more than they'd like, they (the GTown administration) are starting to question that decision of joining the PL for football.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Nov 9, 2013 0:42:33 GMT -5
I appreciate the response as I am also confused. My question is how can all these IAA schools commit to these programs but for us it's like climbing Mt. Everest. I think if we don't put the best foot forward to fund our teams on par with the competition than what is the point. I think we have been in this state for many years and it's now going to get much worse. At some point having a football program that is sub-par is worse than not having a football program which is where I am now. I would love to see us step up to the Villanova's and Delaware's of the world to compete but don't feel like that will happen in my lifetime. I think this is being ignored by the AD and ADMIN.
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CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,598
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Post by CAHoya07 on Nov 9, 2013 2:58:14 GMT -5
I feel like DFW will correct all of us, but I believe that our basketball budget is one of the largest in the nation. Because of that, and because of other university things, in my opinion, it creates not a lot of room for a real commitment to football, all things considered.
Now, how Villanova can do it, and we can't, that's the real question.
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Post by puppydog100 on Nov 9, 2013 13:43:25 GMT -5
Here's an alternative to the unfinished MSF, see attachment. Proceeds from the sale of vegetables could be put toward budget deficit.
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RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,817
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Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 9, 2013 17:50:48 GMT -5
I appreciate the response as I am also confused. My question is how can all these IAA schools commit to these programs but for us it's like climbing Mt. Everest. One could write a book about the subject - actually, Georgetown's sailing coach is halfway there, writing his master's degree thesis about athletic financial aid at Georgetown. But the short version looks like this: 1. None of the other schools mentioned has the number of sports we do. If we were to dump a bunch of men's sports (Title IX would require keeping the women's), we could fund football at a Fordham or Villanova level. But we're not going to do that, because that's not the Georgetown Way (which is to say, it's not the way of our perceived and aspirational peers). 2. We are much higher up the US News rankings than the Patriots and Colonials of the world (William & Mary is the closest, at #32, although it is also the 2nd oldest university in the United States and state-supported, so it's an outlier in many ways). We have more departments, centers, programs, degrees, expenses, and aspirations than any Patriot League or Colonial school ever will - and the currents of academia are such that having more only breeds a desire for even more. 3. We are a member of the Consortium on Financing Higher Education and as such have committed to meeting 100% of demonstrated financial need for all U.S. students (the definition of "need" at Georgetown is, of course, less generous at Georgetown than at some other schools). No other Patriot or Colonial school has made such a commitment. The Ivies all have. Our pie may be bigger, but we have to divide it among many more players and interests, both inside and outside the Athletics Departments. DeGioia has noted many times that we "punch above our weight class" when it comes to our endowment. That's a nice way of putting it - the less nice way is that Georgetown is a quintessential example of having champagne tastes on a beer budget. It's not just a matter of taste, of course - a professor or even a staff member in the DC metro area is a lot more expensive than one in Worcester, Mass or Easton, PA. Generally speaking, I'm ok with that. What I do wish we could do is admit it and tackle it head on, lying out a roadmap for incremental progress within the many significant constraints we face. But then, that's not the Georgetown Way either.
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Post by puppydog100 on Nov 10, 2013 12:51:46 GMT -5
Golden Hoya, clearly the "Georgetown Way" is not working.
Time a chart a course for a new direction and destination. GU outstanding student - athletes deserve better.
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RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,817
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Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 10, 2013 14:03:12 GMT -5
Golden Hoya, clearly the "Georgetown Way" is not working. Time a chart a course for a new direction and destination. GU outstanding student - athletes deserve better. It's not working from the perspective of fielding a competitive FCS program - absolutely. But that's not the priority - I would argue it's not even a priority - of the people responsible for charting courses, directions, and destinations. I wish they were willing to be up front about it and level will everyone as to where their priorities lie and what their plans do look like. But opacity of decision-making has also long been 'The Georgetown Way.' That's changing in a few areas, but McDonough and Healy 2 are far more likely to be the last holdouts than the vanguard. FYI: "Golden Hoya" is a 'rank' that the message board assigns to people with between 1,000 and 2,500 posts. "RusskyHoya" is my screenname.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Nov 10, 2013 16:26:10 GMT -5
Golden Hoya, clearly the "Georgetown Way" is not working. Time a chart a course for a new direction and destination. GU outstanding student - athletes deserve better. It's not working from the perspective of fielding a competitive FCS program - absolutely. But that's not the priority - I would argue it's not even a priority - of the people responsible for charting courses, directions, and destinations. I wish they were willing to be up front about it and level will everyone as to where their priorities lie and what their plans do look like. But opacity of decision-making has also long been 'The Georgetown Way.' That's changing in a few areas, but McDonough and Healy 2 are far more likely to be the last holdouts than the vanguard. FYI: "Golden Hoya" is a 'rank' that the message board assigns to people with between 1,000 and 2,500 posts. "RusskyHoya" is my screenname. Exactly. There's a lot of frustration from parents and others who are relatively new to the program and school because they don't realize that this is not a priority and never will be. Then after 10 or so years, they realize the reality of the situation and stop caring.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 10, 2013 18:08:03 GMT -5
If it is not a priority, we should move down to a conference on which we can be competitive, not a doormat. Anything else makes no sense.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Nov 10, 2013 18:17:15 GMT -5
If it is not a priority, we should move down to a conference on which we can be competitive, not a doormat. Anything else makes no sense. And therein lies the problem. Fish or cut bait. It's been the same for years.
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RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,817
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Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 10, 2013 19:58:51 GMT -5
If it is not a priority, we should move down to a conference on which we can be competitive, not a doormat. Anything else makes no sense. It makes no sense from a competitiveness perspective. It does make sense from a "the sole purpose of the football program is to be a nice tradition that occupies roughly the same place on our campus as the football programs do at the Ivy League schools to whose status we aspire." Wins and losses are borderline meaningless in such a context - the important part is that the program be respectable academically, not be a drain on resources, and not embarrass the school with off-field behavior and controversy.
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Post by puppydog100 on Nov 10, 2013 21:23:03 GMT -5
So here's our pitch to a football prospect.
Come and play at GU. You're folks can pay $ 50,000+ per year, and you can enjoy our inferior facilities, and get your rears kicked ever Saturday afternoon.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,861
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Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 10, 2013 22:19:53 GMT -5
"Why do we do this? Why does a University like Georgetown invite you in and ask you to compete at the level that we do?
"For three reasons. First, we want to encourage performance, from young people, at the highest degree possible. We want to do this in the classroom and in the recital hall, in the news room and on the [field]. One of our former newspaper writers here on campus won a Pulitzer Prize on Monday. Another is the Supreme Allied Commander for NATO (also a former player!) We want to prepare people to make a difference in the world and one of the ways we do that is by exposing them to competition at the highest level possible. We provide hundreds of opportunities for you and your classmates to develop yourselves during your undergraduate years. About 600 of our 6000 students participate in one set of these opportunities - intercollegiate athletics. And of that, you represent those who choose to participate in one of our intercollegiate sports... A rare, special and privileged opportunity to develop yourselves, to make the most of your talents and abilities, to forge your character in a context that is unlike anything else I have ever experienced. We provide this opportunity to you because we believe this is a way in which you can fulfill your promise and potential and prepare yourselves for the world's fight.
"Second, we seek to create opportunities for the community to come together and celebrate this commitment, this expression of excellence. We want to gather this community around the experience of watching you perform at your very best. A celebration of your gifts, that can bring together an entire community.
"Third, it's fun. Enjoy this. For all of us, but especially for you, enjoy this. There is nothing quite like this. You will have other incredible experiences in your lives. Anyone who tells you these are the best years of your lives isn't really telling you the truth. You have incredible adventures ahead of you. But this is special and there is nothing you will experience that is quite like this...
"Even when we were down this season, we were Georgetown. If you put our team out [there] and never put the name of the school on the uniform, it would take just a few minutes before everyone watching would know and would say - "That's a Georgetown team." Intensity of effort, focus, discipline, class, dignity, honor- the integration of the entire experience - there is an authenticity of our program. So, thank you for representing this university with class and dignity. Thank you for the commitment you make in the classroom. Thank you for your willingness to accept the challenge and responsibility of competing...and for honoring, and extending this tradition...
"For the coaches, you accept the commitments we ask of you. And here too, there are three: (1) That each student we offer the opportunity in which to participate in this program - that each will accept the responsibilities entailed - and the first of those is to embrace the education provided here. The first commitment - that our students will receive our education and they will graduate; When I say our education, it means more than that they will graduate. It also means that they are prepared to live lives in which they will be leaders in their communities and businesses, lives in which they will be I husbands and fathers, friends, and citizens. You accept this set of responsibilities that is grounded in our 214-year tradition of Catholic and Jesuit education here on the Hilltop. (2) Secondly, that we do it honestly that we be above reproach - that we must set the standard for integrity in intercollegiate athletics. And we do; (3) And finally, that we win. We keep score for a reason. Everyone has a better experience when we are winning."
Jack DeGioia (C'79), April 11, 2003
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Post by hoyafbdad13 on Nov 11, 2013 13:32:44 GMT -5
So here's our pitch to a football prospect. Come and play at GU. You're folks can pay $ 50,000+ per year, and you can enjoy our inferior facilities, and get your rears kicked ever Saturday afternoon. Which unfortunately is exactly word for word what I and my child experienced. The only positive, which is why he decided to come anyway, was he graduated with a Georgetown degree which is what helped him get his first job upon graduation in a time when finding jobs for all Americans, especially college grads, is tough.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 11, 2013 18:31:24 GMT -5
If it is not a priority, we should move down to a conference on which we can be competitive, not a doormat. Anything else makes no sense. It makes no sense from a competitiveness perspective. It does make sense from a "the sole purpose of the football program is to be a nice tradition that occupies roughly the same place on our campus as the football programs do at the Ivy League schools to whose status we aspire." Wins and losses are borderline meaningless in such a context - the important part is that the program be respectable academically, not be a drain on resources, and not embarrass the school with off-field behavior and controversy. We are not anywhere near the level of the Ivy League. I am not arguing that we should not have football - just that we should stop kidding ourselves, and drop down to a conference more suited to our abilities.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Nov 11, 2013 18:32:30 GMT -5
It makes no sense from a competitiveness perspective. It does make sense from a "the sole purpose of the football program is to be a nice tradition that occupies roughly the same place on our campus as the football programs do at the Ivy League schools to whose status we aspire." Wins and losses are borderline meaningless in such a context - the important part is that the program be respectable academically, not be a drain on resources, and not embarrass the school with off-field behavior and controversy. We are not anywhere near the level of the Ivy League. I am not arguing that we should not have football - just that we should stop kidding ourselves, and drop down to a conference more suited to our abilities. And what conference would that be?
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RusskyHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
In Soviet Russia, Hoya Blue Bleeds You!
Posts: 4,817
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Post by RusskyHoya on Nov 11, 2013 18:42:30 GMT -5
We are not anywhere near the level of the Ivy League. I am not arguing that we should not have football - just that we should stop kidding ourselves, and drop down to a conference more suited to our abilities. Note that I didn't say that the thinking is to be on par with the Ivies in competitiveness (although that's certainly the aspiration). Clearly, we are not. Rather, the current objective, such as it is, is merely to keep football 'in its proper place,' e.g. at roughly the same relative footprint as at the Ivies. None of the Ancient Eight will be confused for football schools, The Game notwithstanding. The current Georgetown model most likely would be competitive with the Ivies - some of them, anyway - if it were backed by an Ivy-level resource base.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Nov 11, 2013 19:27:37 GMT -5
So here's our pitch to a football prospect. Come and play at GU. You're folks can pay $ 50,000+ per year, and you can enjoy our inferior facilities, and get your rears kicked ever Saturday afternoon. Which unfortunately is exactly word for word what I and my child experienced. The only positive, which is why he decided to come anyway, was he graduated with a Georgetown degree which is what helped him get his first job upon graduation in a time when finding jobs for all Americans, especially college grads, is tough. Unfortunately, you hear this story over and over on this board. I somehow fell into a rabbit hole on the internet when searching for whether there had been suggestions for Columbia to drop football lately and found this unintentionally hilarious and crazy, but thorough account of a Columbia football player's career (from recruiting to graduation) by his dad: www.johntreed.com/matsdad.html (be sure to read the part about Columbia's racism against his white running back son )
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