Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Sept 23, 2013 18:25:36 GMT -5
If only the Republicans had a principled statesman like Ringside Harry to lead them.
I am no fan of Ted Cruz but there is plenty of bad behavior to go around on this one.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Sept 23, 2013 20:21:24 GMT -5
Yes! More material for Comedy Channel's Daily Show!
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Post by Problem of Dog on Sept 24, 2013 1:08:39 GMT -5
Sarah Palin's rhetoric always seems symptomatic of a view that I can't actually believe that any Republican can rationally hold: that the only way for the Republican party to ultimately win back the Presidency/Senate/Whatever is for the party to get MORE conservative.
Do people actually believe that? A party that has lost two presidential elections in a row with relatively center of the spectrum candidates thinks that those losses were because their candidates were TOO centrist?
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 24, 2013 9:32:08 GMT -5
Sarah Palin's rhetoric always seems symptomatic of a view that I can't actually believe that any Republican can rationally hold: that the only way for the Republican party to ultimately win back the Presidency/Senate/Whatever is for the party to get MORE conservative. Do people actually believe that? A party that has lost two presidential elections in a row with relatively center of the spectrum candidates thinks that those losses were because their candidates were TOO centrist? Well, the Republicans put up two pretty darn conservative candidates in the last 30+ years. Both of them won two terms. The Republicans have also put up several more centrist candidates in the last 30+ years. Almost all of them got drubbed pretty badly.* What would you recommend? (*the exception being George H. W. Bush, but he pretty much got elected the first time running for Reagan's third term [EDIT: and because Democrats barely even put up a candidate, let alone a fight]; he probably would've won re-election had it not been for a certain crazy Texan with big ears).
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TC
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Post by TC on Sept 24, 2013 10:04:07 GMT -5
The Republicans have also put up several more centrist candidates in the last 30+ years. Almost all of them got drubbed pretty badly.* Correlation not causation. How did President Goldwater work out?
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Sept 24, 2013 10:20:28 GMT -5
It boils down to:
Can the Republican Party candidate win in 2016 (and after) with a loud Tea Party (as is)?
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Sept 24, 2013 11:27:10 GMT -5
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Post by Problem of Dog on Sept 24, 2013 11:46:34 GMT -5
Sarah Palin's rhetoric always seems symptomatic of a view that I can't actually believe that any Republican can rationally hold: that the only way for the Republican party to ultimately win back the Presidency/Senate/Whatever is for the party to get MORE conservative. Do people actually believe that? A party that has lost two presidential elections in a row with relatively center of the spectrum candidates thinks that those losses were because their candidates were TOO centrist? Well, the Republicans put up two pretty darn conservative candidates in the last 30+ years. Both of them won two terms. The Republicans have also put up several more centrist candidates in the last 30+ years. Almost all of them got drubbed pretty badly.* What would you recommend? (*the exception being George H. W. Bush, but he pretty much got elected the first time running for Reagan's third term [EDIT: and because Democrats barely even put up a candidate, let alone a fight]; he probably would've won re-election had it not been for a certain crazy Texan with big ears). I'd say that the country has changed a tiny bit in the last 30+ years.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 24, 2013 11:52:12 GMT -5
Well, it's hard to argue against the overwhelming evidence of "just one issue." Particularly when it is one man's opinion. And the only data to back it is purely speculative. But honestly, I think conservatives should totally look to people like Paul Waldman to tell them what it means to be a conservative.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Sept 24, 2013 12:44:20 GMT -5
Reagan and GWB both expanded government throughout their terms - both talked about eliminating agencies, but instead established new cabinet-level departments (Veterans Affairs, Homeland Security); both supported major expansions of Medicare (Catastrophic Care, Prescription Drug benefit); Reagan significantly expanded Social Security, making it mandatory for all the groups that had been left out because they had their own pension programs, and increased the Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes; Reagan expanded the Earned Income Tax Credit; Bush expanded the federal role in education with No Child Left Behind; and so on.
They did both cut taxes right away, with little to no concern for the resulting increased debt, if that is conservative; They did expand Defense, also not necessarily a defining characteristic of conservatism; They both talked about abortion and other conservative social issues, but made no determined effort to do anything about them.
Bush had a Republican Congress for 6 years of expanded government; Reagan had a Republican Senate for 6 years, and a Democratic House with a large number of Conservative Democrats who were on board for almost all of his agenda, so neither was every bullied by Congress into signing something he did not want to do.
Their rhetoric was more conservative than their actions.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Sept 24, 2013 13:19:45 GMT -5
Sarah Palin's rhetoric always seems symptomatic of a view that I can't actually believe that any Republican can rationally hold: that the only way for the Republican party to ultimately win back the Presidency/Senate/Whatever is for the party to get MORE conservative. Do people actually believe that? A party that has lost two presidential elections in a row with relatively center of the spectrum candidates thinks that those losses were because their candidates were TOO centrist? I suppose you could interpret this argument in a fundamentalist, Old Testament way in which everything is divine punishment or salvation: Why has God forsaken the Republicans and allowed the wicked Obama to prosper? The Republicans were not worthy of God's salvation because their leaders have not been pure and righteous. So if the Republicans nominate the right leader, God will take care of the rest. However, if I believed this kind of thing, I would suggest that God is not amused by the worship of Ayn Rand.
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ksf42001
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Post by ksf42001 on Sept 24, 2013 14:28:51 GMT -5
And it's come to this...Cruz is literally doing a fake filibuster right now. He's talking until he's "no longer able to stand". He's doing this to prevent...nothing, since this is allotted debate time, so he's essentially hogging to spotlight instead of letting other republicans talk.
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TC
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Post by TC on Sept 24, 2013 16:06:20 GMT -5
Apparently he pre-negotiated his fauxlibluster with Reid. Way to stick it to the man.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 24, 2013 18:11:12 GMT -5
Ted Cruz is airing the beliefs of a very large number of people in this country.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Sept 24, 2013 18:22:04 GMT -5
Ted Cruz is airing the beliefs of a very large number of people in this country. Do you agree that the only way to reach the American public is to get MORE conservative? Because that's the exact opposite direction that this country is going.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Sept 24, 2013 19:38:48 GMT -5
Ted Cruz is airing the beliefs of a very large number of people in this country. What might those beliefs be? Shut down the government if Congress doesn't defund ACA? The majority of Americans are against that, by a margin of 3 to 1. He seems to be making an argument that Congress should more fully reflect the will of the people. He's on the wrong side of the will of the people on several prominent issues. He opposes gun control, while the majority of Americans support it. He opposes higher taxes on the wealthy, while the majority of Americans support that too. Immigration, cuts to Social Security and Medicare? Again, he's on the wrong side of the fence from the majority of Americans. So what are those beliefs? I guess most Americans do like Dr. Seuss's Green Eggs and Ham.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 25, 2013 9:03:33 GMT -5
Ted Cruz is airing the beliefs of a very large number of people in this country. Do you agree that the only way to reach the American public is to get MORE conservative? Because that's the exact opposite direction that this country is going. Yes. There has not been a conservative nominated by either party in a very long time so you don't know until you try.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Sept 25, 2013 9:36:08 GMT -5
Ted Cruz is airing the beliefs of a very large number of people in this country. What might those beliefs be? Shut down the government if Congress doesn't defund ACA? The majority of Americans are against that, by a margin of 3 to 1. He seems to be making an argument that Congress should more fully reflect the will of the people. He's on the wrong side of the will of the people on several prominent issues. He opposes gun control, while the majority of Americans support it. He opposes higher taxes on the wealthy, while the majority of Americans support that too. Immigration, cuts to Social Security and Medicare? Again, he's on the wrong side of the fence from the majority of Americans. So what are those beliefs? I guess most Americans do like Dr. Seuss's Green Eggs and Ham. Are you reading from a playbook? One by one: 1. Is shutting down the government if Congress does not fully fund Obamacare popular? The House passed a bill to keep the government open and the Senate will reject it. Who, then, is closing down the government? 2. Gun control: where is the Democratic uprising to pass gun control? If it's so popular, why is there no serious proposal in Congress? Conservatives believe the Constitution grants them the right to bear arms and a constitutional amendment would be required to change that. 3. Higher taxes on the wealthy. Conservatives are in favor of lower taxes for all, including the wealthy since they already pay half of what they earn to federal, state and local taxes. Conservatives reject the idea that their money belongs to the government. 4. Immigration. Conservatives are in favor of closing the border and enforcing the "laws of the land" and then finding a way for citizenship for those currently here. Otherwise, in another 15 years we will have another 20 million illegals in the country. 5. Cuts to Social Security. Guilty. Conservatives believe Social Security will go bankrupt unless changes are made by such things as raising the retirement age or giving people the ability to manage their own retirement funds. 6. Cuts to Medicare. You do recognize that the only ones to cut Medicare have been the Democrats, don't you? To the tune of half a trillion dollars, as part of Obamacare. Medicare also must be cut to avoid it going bankrupt.
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Post by Problem of Dog on Sept 25, 2013 11:43:48 GMT -5
Do you agree that the only way to reach the American public is to get MORE conservative? Because that's the exact opposite direction that this country is going. Yes. There has not been a conservative nominated by either party in a very long time so you don't know until you try. What would lead you to believe that? The US just elected a very liberal (in the public's eyes) President for two terms. Do you see the American public trending more conservative socially? Economically?
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Sept 25, 2013 11:56:13 GMT -5
Liberal? Conservative? How about we try competent?
As an aside, when something is defined by government as "Affordable", doesn't that always really mean paid for by others? As in President Clinton and "Affordable Housing" and Mr. Obama's "Affordable Care Act"?
For example, what I see as a result of the ACA, is an increase in what I will personally have to pay. Certainly Health Care has not gotten more affordable for my family.
Just wondering...
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