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Post by strummer8526 on Oct 16, 2013 8:39:46 GMT -5
The whole issue boils down to 2 questions: 1. Is the team name a racial slur? The answer is yes - anyone who disagrees is lying or an idiot. 2. Now that we have admitted its a racial slur - should a sports team name itself a racial slur? The answer is no - anyone who disagrees is lying or an idiot. Calling your opposition "liars and idiots" = very effective debate strategy. Well done.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Oct 16, 2013 9:46:20 GMT -5
Well, if the shoe fits...
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Oct 16, 2013 10:32:59 GMT -5
Read between my lines. I am using shock to make a point or two. One point is the holier than thou attitude being espoused by those who used the term, Redskins, in the past but have now been converted and wish to impose their recent conversion onto all. Then, of course, to call me and others who may not share their conversion, racists. You dont think that "Redskin" is racists. Why? Stop bothering with these "points" about those of us who want the name changed. Its just a smoke screen to cover up the fact that you dont have any evidence to support your view.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 16, 2013 12:10:19 GMT -5
Political correctness aside for a moment, this reinforces a pet peeve of mine that people do not and have not understood the context between the words prejudice, bigotry and racism.
A man that does not hire someone because he is black is not, at first count, racist, he is prejudiced. A man that insults someone because he is black, is a bigot. A man who believes one group is physically or intellectually superior to another solely based on skin color is racist. Put into sports metaphors:
George Preston Marshall = prejudice Ty Cobb = bigotry Al Campanis = racism
One can be any or all of these but they are distinct.
The Redskins name is none of these. At worst it is a perjorative term, but this too is a point of debate. The name was a spin-off of the Boston Braves (most NFL teams of that era were a one-off of established baseball team names: Giants, Bears (a nod to Chicago's Cubs), Lions (Tigers), Cardinals, and even former NFL teams (now forgotten) like the New York Yankees, Cleveland Indians, Brooklyn Dodgers and Pitsburgh Pirates. George Preston Marshall was by many, many accounts, prejudiced, but he chose the name because it distinguished his business from the often losing Braves, his coach at the time (Bill Dietz) was an Indian (or at least claimed to be when he got the coaching job at Haskell Indian Nations) and the use of Redskin in the 1930's referred not to ethnicity but to the use of war paint.
I'm no fan of Dan Snyder but to his credit (and to Jack Kent Cooke and Edward Bennett Williams before him), the Redskins have never resorted to Chief Wahoo or Willie Wampum imagery. The Redskin brand has generally stood as respectful of its heritage and, as best as can be expected, to reflect some pride in what it represents. More importantly, the Redskins are a private business and Dan Snyder, not the PC police, has the right to run his business as he sees fit. If Snyder wants to follow in the steps of Abe Pollin's rationalization for changing the Bullets moniker, that's his call, not any of ours. However, he has the right to protect the institutional brand that he has. If someone claimed "Yankee" had racist origins, the Steinbrenners would not cash it in for some generic brand just because it was "the right thing to do".
The PC police hasn't got to Jayhawks or Crusaders yet, but be warned. (I'm sure some dimwit in the future will claim that "Cowboy" is a insult to the vaquero, too.) There are more important issues in this nation than rewriting history.
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Oct 16, 2013 13:22:51 GMT -5
For over 20 years numerous Native American groups have openly protested the teams name because they find it offensive. Any reason to protect the name is a justification that excludes the feelings of people who are openly offended by the team name, which is indefensible.
If I call Bill a jerk and Mary thinks I'm being mean, its easy to say so what. But when Bill says I don't like being called a jerk and my argument is so what I've called you a jerk forever, you just don't like it because all of a sudden Mary made a big deal out of it, that's disingenuous. You're in the wrong, Bill told you to stop.
Only in this case, Bill has been telling you to stop for 20 years and you've been ignoring him and it wasn't until Mary made a big deal out of it that people started paying attention.
The name is wrong, needs to be changed, and people are kidding themselves if they think this would fly for any other minority group in this country. Native American's are such a small and ignored population in the US, its easy to ignore them, which is what the team has been doing for 2 decades.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Oct 16, 2013 15:52:39 GMT -5
Even longer: The National Congress of American Indians has been calling for these types of names to be changed since the 1940s. Its only that in the last 20 years have native groups had the money and media exposure to campaign extensively for this cause. And I believe the internet and particularly twitter has been the impetus for the current wave of attention.
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hoopsmccan
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Post by hoopsmccan on Oct 16, 2013 16:09:16 GMT -5
Even longer: The National Congress of American Indians has been calling for these types of names to be changed since the 1940s. Its only that in the last 20 years have native groups had the money and media exposure to campaign extensively for this cause. And I believe the internet and particularly twitter has been the impetus for the current wave of attention. So basically, it wasn't an issue when Ed was in college, and dadgummit, it shouldn't be an issue now. hm
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Oct 16, 2013 16:22:29 GMT -5
the use of Redskin in the 1930's referred not to ethnicity but to the use of war paint. Your point regarding the origins of the term is well-taken. However, I would question whether this use was still popular or even recognized in the 1930s. From Wikipedia (reference cited is available on Google Books): "A linguistic analysis of books published between 1875 and 1930 show an increasingly negative context in the use of redskin, often in association with "dirty", "lying", etc.; while benign or positive usage such as "noble" redskin were used in a condescending manner."
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DallasHoya
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Post by DallasHoya on Oct 16, 2013 16:45:44 GMT -5
So who do we believe - the dozens of high schools around the country that are overwhelmingly Native American, use the nickname Redskins for their own teams and aren't offended by it, or some politically correct white folks who suddenly discovered the cause?
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Oct 16, 2013 18:11:20 GMT -5
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nathanhm
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Post by nathanhm on Oct 16, 2013 18:42:36 GMT -5
So who do we believe - the dozens of high schools around the country that are overwhelmingly Native American, use the nickname Redskins for their own teams and aren't offended by it, or some politically correct white folks who suddenly discovered the cause? Read the article SSHoya posted and it will explain the answer to your question. Also not everyone offended is a politically correct white person. I'm neither.
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DallasHoya
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Post by DallasHoya on Oct 16, 2013 19:32:12 GMT -5
So who do we believe - the dozens of high schools around the country that are overwhelmingly Native American, use the nickname Redskins for their own teams and aren't offended by it, or some politically correct white folks who suddenly discovered the cause? Read the article SSHoya posted and it will explain the answer to your question. Also not everyone offended is a politically correct white person. I'm neither. That's my point. If a majority of Native Americans decide that the term is offensive, it should be changed. I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks - white or black.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Oct 17, 2013 5:30:27 GMT -5
Read the article SSHoya posted and it will explain the answer to your question. Also not everyone offended is a politically correct white person. I'm neither. That's my point. If a majority of Native Americans decide that the term is offensive, it should be changed. I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks - white or black. I think you missed the nuance of the article and the author's conclusion: "So I pass that question on to you: At one point, many white people openly called black people "n#*#ers." Those racists stopped, eventually, because many (not all) black people said that word was hurtful and offensive. That was a positive step—progress. In light of that racial progress, why wouldn't folks also stop calling another group of people, Native Americans, a word that many (not all) Native Americans likewise say is hurtful, racist, and offensive? Or, to put it another way: Shouldn't we have gotten to the point where non-racists feel uncomfortable using a word that a contingent of people find hurtful, racist, and offensive??"
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Oct 17, 2013 9:27:49 GMT -5
At this point, given the recent antics on Capitol Hill, the name they should drop as offensive is Washington.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Oct 17, 2013 9:56:43 GMT -5
So who do we believe - the dozens of high schools around the country that are overwhelmingly Native American, use the nickname Redskins for their own teams and aren't offended by it, or some politically correct white folks who suddenly discovered the cause? I'm not sure, but we should definitely exclude any well-documented instances of Native Americans who find the name offensive from this discussion.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Oct 26, 2013 15:20:50 GMT -5
There once was a lighter-skinned people who invaded the territory of a darker-skinned people. They took away all of their land, stole their cattle, killed most of them and the remainder they confined to a much smaller territory. Later on some of the lighter-skinned people gathered together and said to one another "we done wrong so let us go and apologize". So they went to the darker-skinned people and said "we done wrong so we would like to apologize. We are so sorry we called you names". Then the lighter-skinned people again gathered together and said to themselves "we are so noble. We don't understand those racists that have not apologized for calling them names".
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Dec 5, 2013 15:53:54 GMT -5
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Dec 6, 2013 13:15:01 GMT -5
Even the Dutch editorialize their news.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jan 17, 2014 10:28:21 GMT -5
The Houston school board has voted to ban the use of any race or ethnic group as a school mascot or nickname, starting next school year. Houston Independent School District trustees enacted the new policy by a 7-0 vote Thursday night, with one member abstaining and one absent. A school district statement says the policy will mean changes in the team names of the Lamar High School Redskins, Westbury High School Rebels, Hamilton Middle School Indians and Welch Middle School Warriors. www.statesman.com/ap/ap/education/houston-school-board-bans-racial-or-ethnic-mascots/ncrJ6/
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jan 17, 2014 20:59:14 GMT -5
The Houston school board has voted to ban the use of any race or ethnic group as a school mascot or nickname, starting next school year. Houston Independent School District trustees enacted the new policy by a 7-0 vote Thursday night, with one member abstaining and one absent. A school district statement says the policy will mean changes in the team names of the Lamar High School Redskins, Westbury High School Rebels, Hamilton Middle School Indians and Welch Middle School Warriors. www.statesman.com/ap/ap/education/houston-school-board-bans-racial-or-ethnic-mascots/ncrJ6/"Warriors" is a race or ethnic group? I think they should ban "Texans."
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