Another NCAA Pratfall: The Post-Game Thread

[sleepy]

Mar 23, 2013 15:37:32 GMT -5 richfame said:

Mar 23, 2013 7:12:09 GMT -5 DanMcQ said:

As much as people are dying to turn this into an "offensive system" loss, it wasn't. Not saying the offense was good (it wasn't), but this was putrid transition and half court defense, pure and simple. No player, Otto included, had a good defensive game.

You should figure out what drive and kick is and then email it to JT3. There may be something to that...

That was our only offense in 2011. Then Chris Wright broke his hand.

Every single one of these losses has come against vastly different teams. That is what is so perplexing. Good defensive teams, bad defensive teams, good offensive teams with strong guards, balanced teams, young teams, old teams, consistent teams, inconsistent teams. Teams that played 9 players, teams that played 8 players, teams that played 7 players and now a team that played 6. You can change, tweek, and adjust the "system" all you want. That's not the problem. It's an easy and lazy solution for fans to make because we have the luxury to be lazy and spout of whatever nonsense we want because it's not our livelihood and it makes us feel better.

In reality though, this years team has very little in common with the 2010 and 2011 teams. And all three of those teams had very little on common with the 2008 team. III does seem to be the only link(that and ALWAYS BEING IN KANSAS' BRACKET) but even then I wouldn't say he is the same coach he was in 2008. There is no easy fix, if there is a fix at all.

[johnnysnowplow]

Mar 23, 2013 15:45:07 GMT -5 profquigley said:

Here's my way of coping with this...I keep thinking of how great I felt after our season ending win over Syracuse. Was at the game so got to see cutting down the net and the conference trophy ceremony. Lets all try to remember that and block out yesterday...and look forward to tomorrow.

That just makes me feel worse...

Can't help but be jealous right now of Michigan St. and their 11 Sweet 16s in 16 appearances under Tom Izzo.

[gujake]

Mar 23, 2013 14:46:36 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Not only is it brilliant but it makes me wonder why our coaches don't try throwing in one or two new wrinkles to catch the opposing team off guard. One of my least favorite quotes from III is when he says we (meaning the Hoyas) don't game plan for different teams, instead we adjust to the defense and take what the defense gives us. That drives me nuts because it suggests you allow another team to dictate how the game is to be played. I like it better when it is the Hoyas who are trying to dictate a tone. Even more than that I hate that quote because it also indicates that III isn't trying to come up with an actual game plan with some twists thrown in. That's probably not the case but that is what those words suggest to me at least.

Yeah, I think the scouting/game planning thing could have some merit. The obvious counter is - well, why isn't it a problem before the NCAAs?

As mentioned by others, maybe we get away with poor game planning during the Big East because we're already familiar with the teams that we're playing. It would be pretty hard to mess that up. And maybe we get away with it in the pre-season because teams don't care very much about game planning against us in the pre-season. They're more concerned with learning their own sets.

So in the NCAAs our opponents are specifically game planning for us and we're not familiar with them and we don't specifically game plan for them. We just keep running our stuff and we don't adjust.

Seems plausible to me. That and the energy/intensity thing are the only two arguments that make sense to me.

[guru]

Mar 23, 2013 15:58:10 GMT -5 johnnysnowplow said:

Mar 23, 2013 15:45:07 GMT -5 profquigley said:

Here's my way of coping with this...I keep thinking of how great I felt after our season ending win over Syracuse. Was at the game so got to see cutting down the net and the conference trophy ceremony. Lets all try to remember that and block out yesterday...and look forward to tomorrow.

That just makes me feel worse...

Can't help but be jealous right now of Michigan St. and their 11 Sweet 16s in 16 appearances under Tom Izzo.

JT3 is the anti-Izzo. Overall, he's one of the worst tournament coaches of all time. The resume speaks for itself. And I really like the guy. Just hope he pulls it together in the postseason soon.

[unclebeets]

There are a few realities everyone needs to accept.

JTIII is not under the same pressure to win (or to recruit to win) as coaches at other high-profile programs. He never would have put GW in mothballs if it were otherwise. And this is nothing new -- Pops's post-season record had plenty of first weekend outs after 1985. The administration has a different set of priorities, simple as that.

(And anyone who thinks Jack Degioia would look JTII in the eye and say "we're firing your son" is nuts. He won't do it, and no one who is any good would take the job under those circumstances anyway.)

The net results of the last five years are disappointing but not entirely surprising. Truth: strip away the Thompson legacy (which is getting older by the day), then look at facilities, the overall place of athletics in student life, and non-basketball factors >> GU = DePaul. It's not shocking that a school with that kind of profile doesn't make noise in the NCAA tournament.

I agree with others who've suggested that the mental/attitude side of the game is the problem here. Too much bankerball, not enough street.

[sleepy]

Mar 23, 2013 16:06:53 GMT -5 gujake said:

Mar 23, 2013 14:46:36 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Not only is it brilliant but it makes me wonder why our coaches don't try throwing in one or two new wrinkles to catch the opposing team off guard. One of my least favorite quotes from III is when he says we (meaning the Hoyas) don't game plan for different teams, instead we adjust to the defense and take what the defense gives us. That drives me nuts because it suggests you allow another team to dictate how the game is to be played. I like it better when it is the Hoyas who are trying to dictate a tone. Even more than that I hate that quote because it also indicates that III isn't trying to come up with an actual game plan with some twists thrown in. That's probably not the case but that is what those words suggest to me at least.

Yeah, I think the scouting/game planning thing could have some merit. The obvious counter is - well, why isn't it a problem before the NCAAs?

As mentioned by others, maybe we get away with poor game planning during the Big East because we're already familiar with the teams that we're playing. It would be pretty hard to mess that up. And maybe we get away with it in the pre-season because teams don't care very much about game planning against us in the pre-season. They're more concerned with learning their own sets.

So in the NCAAs our opponents are specifically game planning for us and we're not familiar with them and we don't specifically game plan for them. We just keep running our stuff and we don't adjust.

Seems plausible to me. That and the energy/intensity thing are the only two arguments that make sense to me.

This doesn't seem plausible at all. You don't win 3 Big East regular season's without having the ability to scout other teams. Teams change, coaches change in the Big East every year. We are also a great Non-conference team. Again, I find it hard to believe that is possible without scouting. In addition, how can you explain 2007. Or 2006. Just seems like more grasping at straws to me.

[SSHoya]

Mar 23, 2013 15:45:07 GMT -5 profquigley said:

Here's my way of coping with this...I keep thinking of how great I felt after our season ending win over Syracuse. Was at the game so got to see cutting down the net and the conference trophy ceremony. Lets all try to remember that and block out yesterday...and look forward to tomorrow.

Is it possible the team peaked emotionally too at the end of the regular season because of all the hoopla/buildup for the last game v. 'Cuse at the Verizon Center? I know JTIII and the team all said the right things (still more work to do, we're not done yet, etc., ), but their play in the BE Tournament (even in fighting back to take 'Cuse into OT) and the one and done NCAAT suggests otherwise.

[sleepy21]

Usually when a power conference team plays a low/mid major school, the advantage is drastic either at PF/C and/or overall speed/quickness in the backcourt. Maybe he's trying and coming up short in recruiting, but JT3s teams aren't really scaring anyone walking off the bus. I dont care who GTown plays low or mid major, the Lubick/Hopkins duo isnt exactly keeping an opposing coach up at night. And while GTown certainly has talented players on the perimeter, they're never going to overwhelm anyone with speed/quickness as an overall group. So you're left with a very small margin for error to win, particularly in the NCAA tournament where the scouting and game pressure is raised several levels. If Starks or Porter have an off day, forget about it....

I'd just like to see JT3 incorporate more ways to win on a given night. Relying so heavily on sound halfcourt defense and a methodical offensive attack in a low possession game will continue to bite them in the tournament. Especially when you're only going 6.5 players deep....

If Georgetown got a mulligan and was able to play low major school XYZ tomorrow, I think they'd be in another dogfight.

[HoyaLawya]

Mar 23, 2013 13:56:56 GMT -5 hoyarad said:

Mar 23, 2013 13:00:20 GMT -5 HoyaLawya said:

Gave serious thought to borrowing my dog's thunder vest to try and calm down, after witnessing that game.

Kind of relieved that I watched the game with my son at an Alehouse and not at a local alum's house where there was a game watch. From "shocked" to "funereal" was one guest's description of the atmosphere afterwards.

I think alums like me were feeling that this year's edition of the Hoyas had surprised, in a good way, as the regular season wore on. Most saw a team capable of reaching at least the Sweet 16. (Pollyannas like me vote heart over logic, so I saw Hoyas in the Finals.)

For sure, after watching Zags look rusty/hesitant and nearly go down to #16 Southern on Thursday, then #15 take us into one-and-done terrain last night, I will NEVER AGAIN look at an NCAA seeding with anything but profound distrust.

As far as long-range Doom and Gloom? Eh, even Duke suffered the same fate just last year in a #2-#15 matchup with Lehigh and nobody in their right mind thinks that program is headed to oblivion.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men's_Division_I_Basketball_Championship_upsets#15_vs._2

Will you pick the Hoyas to win their first round game next year? (regardless of seed)

99% chance that I would. The only seeding that might give me some pause might be a #16, but even then, I'd expect Hoyas to make history by knocking off a #1. Practically speaking, pigs will grow feathers and fly before any team from a major or even respectable mid-major conference gets stuck with the #16. Teams from no-tourney conferences like Ivy or Patriot, or auto-bid teams from the lowest RPI conferences like MEAC seem to pull #16's.

[NCHoya]

Two thoughts:

1) DFW brought up Otto's FG% regular season = 51%, Post-season = 31%.

I was destroyed on this board for saying we were a one man show, and I finally gave up my argument. But you know what, this team, with 3 scorers in total, really was very over-reliant on Otto. Otto went into the toilet last night and the team followed. It could be as simple as that for this year's failure.

2) Related to #1, how good can a team be if it only has 3 answers on offense? Let's face it, III won COY for a very good reason, the same reason Mike Brey usually wins it, because the team won 25 games with a roster no one thought going into the year would be more than a bubble team. Our expectations got sky high and for good reason, a regular season BE title is rarified air for any program, but was III/Otto simply causing this team to vastly over-achieve its true ability?

Look, I am rationalizing at this point, the reality is we choked and we simply are not mentally prepared to take on the challenge of these mid majors in March. They punch us and we go down hard. We must start punching back, stop thinking and throw some haymakers. Our calculated, methodical approach is not working against inspired, fearless 14/15 seeds!

[sleepy]

Mar 23, 2013 16:29:13 GMT -5 sleepy21 said:

Usually when a power conference team plays a low/mid major school, the advantage is drastic either at PF/C and/or overall speed/quickness in the backcourt. Maybe he's trying and coming up short in recruiting, but JT3s teams aren't really scaring anyone walking off the bus. I dont care who GTown plays low or mid major, the Lubick/Hopkins duo isnt exactly keeping an opposing coach up at night. And while GTown certainly has talented players on the perimeter, they're never going to overwhelm anyone with speed/quickness as an overall group. So you're left with a very small margin for error to win, particularly in the NCAA tournament where the scouting and game pressure is raised several levels. If Starks or Porter have an off day, forget about it....

I'd just like to see JT3 incorporate more ways to win on a given night. Relying so heavily on sound halfcourt defense and a methodical offensive attack in a low possession game will continue to bite them in the tournament. Especially when you're only going 6.5 players deep....

If Georgetown got a mulligan and was able to play low major school XYZ tomorrow, I think they'd be in another dogfight.

Then please explain Ohio and Davidson. Both years had drastic advantage at the center/forward position and 2010 we definitely had the backcourt advantage.

Look you can analyze this six ways to Sunday and at the end of the day you aren't going to find an explanation or fix. We played a 9 man rotation last year. That didn't help. We played 7 players and went to a final four. We were a good consistent defensive team this year. That didn't help. We had a lot of scorers and ways to score in 2010 and 2011. That didn't help.

The problem is we weren't in a dogfight yesterday. Or in 2011. Or in 2010. We got beat down. Davidson wasn't even a dogfight it was a collapse. Depth, system, talent, doesn't explain continually getting BLOWN OUT by these teams. We are just choking.

[vamosalaplaya]

I continue to think there is a match up element to it - and I don't mean a "bad luck" match up element - these are match ups that will occur ever year in the NCAAs. The best mid major teams will play at a fast pace, rely on outside shooting, lots of movement, and be generally undersized. The Hoyas have trouble with that match up, this year more so than ever given how weak their inside game is.

When the Hoyas made the Final Four in 2007 they beat one mid-major - Belmont - and then played three big conference teams - Boston College, Vanderbilt, and UNC.

That isn't to discount the issues around mental preparation, in-game adjustments, and just playing basketball. Throwing out the formula early yesterday when the Hoyas were up 18-11 due to Stark's foul trouble and Otto's need to rest - a timeout might have sufficed.

I don't put Davidson in the same bucket as the last few years. That team was completely robbed by homer refs in the worst officiated game I have ever witnessed. Hibbert got taken out of the game with three off the ball fouls while on offense, which I haven't seen happen to a player in 30 years of watching basketball. The Hoyas should have won that game, it was stolen from them.

To that end, if there is one missing link between Hoya teams that have had success and the recent ones it isn't Jeff Green, but Roy Hibbert. He was there for the Sweet 16 run, the Final Four run, and the loss to Davidson that should have been a run to the Final Four.

I am now moving past this game and my own reaction to it as a fan who watches this team alot and goes to the games. The coaches and players will live with this more than any of us, I am going to guess the staff is going to seriously reflect on how to adjust in future years, and they continue to be terrific ambassadors for the school. It's just a game, as Lic wrote in another thread, and while coaching hoops is a lucrative profession at this level, I hope JT III can make this a "if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger" moment. He can't feel good about the fact the fan base is so disappointed and that until he makes another final 16 run the program will be a poster child for underachieving teams in the media.

[NCHoya]

Mar 23, 2013 16:48:44 GMT -5 vamosalaplaya said:

I continue to think there is a match up element to it - and I don't mean a "bad luck" match up element - these are match ups that will occur ever year in the NCAAs. The best mid major teams will play at a fast pace, rely on outside shooting, lots of movement, and be generally undersized. The Hoyas have trouble with that match up, this year more so than ever given how weak their inside game is.

When the Hoyas made the Final Four in 2007 they beat one mid-major - Belmont - and then played three big conference teams - Boston College, Vanderbilt, and UNC.

That isn't to discount the issues around mental preparation, in-game adjustments, and just playing basketball. Throwing out the formula early yesterday when the Hoyas were up 18-11 due to Stark's foul trouble and Otto's need to rest - a timeout might have sufficed.

I don't put Davidson in the same bucket as the last few years. That team was completely robbed by homer refs in the worst officiated game I have ever witnessed. Hibbert got taken out of the game with three off the ball fouls while on offense, which I haven't seen happen to a player in 30 years of watching basketball. The Hoyas should have won that game, it was stolen from them.

To that end, if there is one missing link between Hoya teams that have had success and the recent ones it isn't Jeff Green, but Roy Hibbert. He was there for the Sweet 16 run, the Final Four run, and the loss to Davidson that should have been a run to the Final Four.

I am now moving past this game and my own reaction to it as a fan who watches this team alot and goes to the games. The coaches and players will live with this more than any of us, I am going to guess the staff is going to seriously reflect on how to adjust in future years, and they continue to be terrific ambassadors for the school. It's just a game, as Lic wrote in another thread, and while coaching hoops is a lucrative profession at this level, I hope JT III can make this a "if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger" moment. He can't feel good about the fact the fan base is so disappointed and that until he makes another final 16 run the program will be a poster child for underachieving teams in the media.

This theory will get tested next season with Josh Smith. Assuming he is in shape, he will be our best back to the basket low post presence since Roy. I hope you are correct.

[hoyas1995]

Well let me ask you guys this: If JT3 is really the problem, do you realize how difficult it will be for him to leave his current post with his father essentially still the face of this school and basketball program?

[sleepy]

Mar 23, 2013 17:04:26 GMT -5 hoyas1995 said:

Well let me ask you guys this: If JT3 is really the problem, do you realize how difficult it will be for him to leave his current post with his father essentially still the face of this school and basketball program?

III leaving would be the worst possible outcome for Georgetown basketball. The mere suggestion of it is absurd and ridiculous. The guy is not perfect but he is very, very good at what he does.

[rockhoya]

Mar 23, 2013 17:04:26 GMT -5 hoyas1995 said:

Well let me ask you guys this: If JT3 is really the problem, do you realize how difficult it will be for him to leave his current post with his father essentially still the face of this school and basketball program?

Duh

[gujake]

Mar 23, 2013 16:20:26 GMT -5 sleepy said:

This doesn't seem plausible at all. You don't win 3 Big East regular season's without having the ability to scout other teams. Teams change, coaches change in the Big East every year. We are also a great Non-conference team. Again, I find it hard to believe that is possible without scouting. In addition, how can you explain 2007. Or 2006. Just seems like more grasping at straws to me.

I am definitely grasping at straws, because as you have correctly pointed out several times, there doesn't seem to be any constant to the makeup of our team or to the makeup of our opponents in these games. It doesn't make sense, and yet we keep losing, often by big margins.

I could use the same types of arguments that you use above to argue against your idea that it is mostly mental. I find it hard to believe that we can be mentally prepared for huge games like the Cuse games but not for an NCAA game. This group in particular has shown almost no signs of choking. Nobody on the current roster was there for the Ohio game and only Lubick/Starks were there for VCU. The idea that we just choke is hard to believe too, and yet here we are again. It is very perplexing.

[hoyas1995]

Mar 23, 2013 17:10:50 GMT -5 rockhoya said:

Mar 23, 2013 17:04:26 GMT -5 hoyas1995 said:

Well let me ask you guys this: If JT3 is really the problem, do you realize how difficult it will be for him to leave his current post with his father essentially still the face of this school and basketball program?

Duh

People here want to blame JT3. Fine. Great. He does deserve some of the blame. But this program will become horseEdited if that ever happens. JT2 still carries this program on his back. If something like this happens, we'd lose our NIKE contract and get some ridiculous Adidas uniforms to scare off recruits.

Bottom line. I know everyone is mad. But JT3 really needs to look in the mirror and figure out why this keeps happening. This is a serious problem considering how successful our regular seasons are

[sleepy]

Mar 23, 2013 17:11:52 GMT -5 gujake said:

Mar 23, 2013 16:20:26 GMT -5 sleepy said:

This doesn't seem plausible at all. You don't win 3 Big East regular season's without having the ability to scout other teams. Teams change, coaches change in the Big East every year. We are also a great Non-conference team. Again, I find it hard to believe that is possible without scouting. In addition, how can you explain 2007. Or 2006. Just seems like more grasping at straws to me.

I am definitely grasping at straws, because as you have correctly pointed out several times, there doesn't seem to be any constant to the makeup of our team or to the makeup of our opponents in these games. It doesn't make sense, and yet we keep losing, often by big margins.

I could use the same types of arguments that you use above to argue against your idea that it is mostly mental. I find it hard to believe that we can be mentally prepared for huge games like the Cuse games but not for an NCAA game. This group in particular has shown almost no signs of choking. Nobody on the current roster was there for the Ohio game and only Lubick/Starks were there for VCU. The idea that we just choke is hard to believe too, and yet here we are again. It is very perplexing.

I think we have shown quite a few signs of choking this season, actually. On a game by game basis we were pretty poor at holding onto big leads. The second we would get up by 10 or so we'd play tight and like we didn't want to lose and it would get close again. To me that's mental. People blamed it on the system and "stall ball", but I always believed it to be the players tightening up and playing scared. I also noticed a small pattern of us playing poorly/tight on offense the second we felt expectation/media attention. We followed up our great performance against Indian with a month of scared offense. The second the pressure is off and we get blown out by Pitt, we come out as a much more aggressive team and stop playing scared/tight offensively. Then we get too dependent on Otto and everyone but Markel and DSR play scared/tight offensively and we get what we got. Now, don't I don't really believe that what I just wrote really means anything. I just think don't think there were no signs of us choking. I think a more fair assessment was that we definitely played better when we thought our backs were against the wall and no one believed in us than we did when we had expectations.

Either way I agree there is no evidence that it is mostly mental. I'm just going with that because you can rule out pretty much every other option. There is no way to know how we are going into these games mentally. Being the superstitious person I am I think being in the same bracket as Kansas the last 5 tournaments(really, what are the odds?) has as much to do with it as anything else, but I realize that's crazy.

[skyhoya]

JTIII needs to change a few things. He needs to bring in some new blood on the coaching staff with some new ideas. He also needs a real big man coach.