hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 24, 2012 10:36:08 GMT -5
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 24, 2012 10:45:13 GMT -5
I think Lance Armstrong was doping (I think all cyclists are doping), but I don't think this is any evidence for it.
Have you ever been the subject of a 15-year investigation or lawsuit? Part of my family has gone through that -- it's a constant source of stress; it takes a massive amount of time and money. Armstrong doesn't need to win this case to be financially secure like most people embroiled in a case like this; he doesn't face jail time. He knows they will never, ever stop pursuing him. There's no end in sight.
I can understand quitting even if innocent.
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skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Aug 24, 2012 10:57:22 GMT -5
Sponsored by the USPS, right? He is an American so it's an European sport, originally, so they finally got him or they think they did. Don't give the medals back, melt them in public.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 24, 2012 11:14:27 GMT -5
This whole thing bugs the $#!t out of me.
I will admit, I am biased because Lance Armstrong was always someone I really admired (even though I try my best not to hold up athletes or celebrities as role models in any way -- e.g., see Lance Armstrong's personal life).
But whether or not Lance Armstrong is guilty of anything, the USADA is on a witch hunt, has been for years and, as SF points out, will never EVER stop.
It really is ridiculous.
1. He has never tested positive for any banned substances in his entire career. 2. They have completely blown through any statute of limitations on any evidence they may have. 3. A lot of what they have appears to be little more than hearsay or circumstantial evidence. 4. They can basically ban him without having to prove anything.
I would love it if the International Cycling Union told them to go stuff themselves and upheld his titles.
This is totally different than Floyd Landis. He tested positive. Armstrong never did.
Personally, what I believe is that Lance Armstrong probably did engage in some activities but nothing that all of the top cyclists were not doing as well, so he never had any competitive advantage.
Does this make me a hypocrite? I think it does, at least somewhat. To say that I THINK he did things but should get to keep his titles, yeah, I recognize that's a bit problematic.
But the fact remains that nothing has been proven against him. Nothing probably ever will be, and yet they are still going to try to take away all of his accomplishments.
I, for one, am with Lance on this point: he knows who won those races, I know who won those races, the whole world knows who won those races. The USADA can't change that, no matter what they do to official record books or whether or not the ICU goes along with them (which would also be a little hypocritical on their part).
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 24, 2012 11:27:09 GMT -5
I don't think it is hypocritical at all to think he doped and should keep his titles. I don't think heavy, logical suspicion of cheating is enough to pull a title even if its enough to convince you over the 50/50 line.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 24, 2012 12:37:49 GMT -5
I think Lance Armstrong was doping (I think all cyclists are doping), but I don't think this is any evidence for it. Have you ever been the subject of a 15-year investigation or lawsuit? Part of my family has gone through that -- it's a constant source of stress; it takes a massive amount of time and money. Armstrong doesn't need to win this case to be financially secure like most people embroiled in a case like this; he doesn't face jail time. He knows they will never, ever stop pursuing him. There's no end in sight. I can understand quitting even if innocent. I agree. I think he just "enough." No matter how many times an agency or body said they weren't going to take action against him, there was always another White Knight lurking around the corner. After the USDA's office in California declined to prosecute, here comes the USADA. And if the goverment declines to prosecute, you can be pretty sure there's nothing worthwhile there. At least Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens have some finality to their witchhunts. I think this decision by Armstrong is totally reasonable and understandable. Anyone else think this mountain of evidence the USADA is going to produce is just going to be statements from a bunch of whiny former riders?
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 24, 2012 12:39:21 GMT -5
Also, weren't all the second place finishers embroiled in drug scandals as well?
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 24, 2012 13:34:44 GMT -5
Tyson Chandler would smoke Lance in a bike race held in 2012.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 24, 2012 15:26:19 GMT -5
Tyson Chandler would smoke Lance in a bike race held in 2012. Day! Made! ;D
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hoyainspirit
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When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 25, 2012 9:58:24 GMT -5
Tyson Chandler would smoke Lance in a bike race held in 2012. Day! Made! ;D I would never admit it, but I did LOL.
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jgalt
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Post by jgalt on Aug 25, 2012 10:21:01 GMT -5
Not to mention that this summer he set a course record at a Triathlon in Louisville, breaking the past record that was held by the current Iron Man record holder. The dude is a freak endurance athlete whether he was juicing or not.
The situation between Lance and the USADA does bother me in the least- I have my opinion, and the USADA hasnt shown me any evidence that would change it. What does annoy me is people who readily admit they dont care about cycling, but feel qualified to comment on this case. They dont understand the politics involved, and how many of these investigations are based on personal vendettas against certain athletes.
And why the hell does the USADA think they have the authority to strip him of Tour de France titles?
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hoyainspirit
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When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
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Post by hoyainspirit on Aug 27, 2012 9:04:53 GMT -5
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 27, 2012 9:17:55 GMT -5
I think he doped but I know the top people he beat did too so it was a level playing field. Nothing makes me cringe more than to see prosecutorial campaigns completely out of any reasonable sense of proportion such as this one by USADA.
There are some sports that CANNOT be cleaned up- cycling, weightlifting, sprinting to a large degree. The only really fair solution to the inequity problem is too stop testing altogether and let the adults make their own decision about what they are willing to do to their bodies.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Aug 27, 2012 16:58:13 GMT -5
There was definitely a vendetta at work there. They were bound to hound him to death to prove their point.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Aug 27, 2012 20:49:18 GMT -5
There was definitely a vendetta at work there. They were bound to hound him to death to prove their point. +1 I love the article in today's USA Today where the head of the USADA said that if Armstrong had come in and admitted everything and threw himself at the mercy of the USADA, they might have not taken some of his Tour titles away.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Aug 27, 2012 21:26:43 GMT -5
He should've just admitted he was a witch. It would've been much easier for him.
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TC
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Post by TC on Aug 27, 2012 21:48:35 GMT -5
I'm sick of watching guilty athletes walk on Ryan Braun-like legalities, so I applaud the USADA. I don't give a crap who has the authority in cycling to strip a biker of their Tour de Frances really, and Sally Jenkins' piece is a giant bunch of non sequiturs stringed together.
If anyone has a case for Lance Armstrong it should start with "Lance Armstrong is innocent", and I haven't seen anyone argue that.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Aug 27, 2012 22:14:24 GMT -5
I'm sick of watching guilty athletes walk on Ryan Braun-like legalities, so I applaud the USADA. I don't give a crap who has the authority in cycling to strip a biker of their Tour de Frances really, and Sally Jenkins' piece is a giant bunch of non sequiturs stringed together. If anyone has a case for Lance Armstrong it should start with "Lance Armstrong is innocent", and I haven't seen anyone argue that. Lance Armstrong is innocent until proven guilty. Do you disagree?
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Aug 28, 2012 7:32:42 GMT -5
I'm sick of watching guilty athletes walk on Ryan Braun-like legalities, so I applaud the USADA. I don't give a crap who has the authority in cycling to strip a biker of their Tour de Frances really, and Sally Jenkins' piece is a giant bunch of non sequiturs stringed together. If anyone has a case for Lance Armstrong it should start with "Lance Armstrong is innocent", and I haven't seen anyone argue that. Lance Armstrong may have been the most heavily tested athlete in history. Do you know how many drug tests he failed TC? ZERO. Have you no regard whatever for due process? This is NOT a Braun-like "legality" situation- Braun actually failed a test. If I had to guess, Armstrong he probably did dope, just like every single other world class cyclist in modern history. But that doesn't mean the doping agencies get to behave like the KGB. I can also conceive of how he might possibly have been innocent and decided to quit railing against a city hall intent on busting him anyway so he could get on with his life. But presuming he did dope, I'm FAR more offended by the sight of a power-crazy bureaucracy trampling over any reasonable sense of fair process in a crusade to nail someone who NEVER FAILED A TEST. The only thing worse than a bully is a government-sanctioned bully who gets to keep moving the goal posts on you until they get their blood. The puritanical streak in this country dies hard. I'm baffled that someone would prefer to see the heavy handed persecution of an individual by a powerful governing body because he used an an aid which all of us know is commonplace in that sport. Grow up. You'd rather see them break a butterfly upon a wheel to satisfy your illusion of fair sport? Not for me.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Aug 28, 2012 9:34:07 GMT -5
www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling-truth-wins-out-in-the-end-3210250.html"The problem with believing that Lance Armstrong was innocent of the doping charges laid against him was that it meant you also had to believe he was the victim of a huge conspiracy. How else could you explain the fact that so many people were prepared to testify against him? Last year an investigative article in Sports Illustrated magazine claimed Armstrong had admitted doping to team-mate Frankie Andreu and his wife Betsy; had gotten hold of a drug named Hemassist which did the same job as EPO without the side-effects; had been discovered with drugs and syringes in his luggage by Swiss customs officials; had lied about cutting ties with Michele Ferrari, an Italian doctor implicated in doping scandals who has been banned from sport for life; had shown abnormally high testosterone levels in several tests and had pushed his team-mates to take EPO. These allegations came on top of testimony from Armstrong's former team-mates Tyler Hamilton, who said they'd doped together, and Floyd Landis, who detailed a systematic doping programme by the seven-time Tour de France winner's US Postal team. Armstrong denied the allegations and pointed out that he'd never tested positive for drugs. Except for during the 1999 Tour when his excuse that a positive test for steroids was caused by a skin cream was accepted by the cycling authorities. But while, singly, the allegations might conceivably have been explained away, their combined weight tipped the scales towards guilty in most people's minds despite Armstrong's ongoing protestations of innocence. Last month came the news that four former team-mates of Armstrong were about to testify against him as part of the United States Anti Doping Agency investigation into the cyclist. This may well have been the straw that broke the camel's back, not least because one of the quartet was George Hincapie, Armstrong's faithful domestique who rode by his side in all seven Tour wins. Unlike Hamilton and Landis, who'd both been caught for doping, Hincapie was about to retire from the sport with a clean record. He could not be portrayed as a drug cheat who wanted to take the great man down along with him out of spite."
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