TC
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Post by TC on Mar 29, 2012 21:54:07 GMT -5
That this case isn't like Duke Lacrosse, where it was a question of whether the accused even did something wrong. We know Zimmerman did something wrong here - he should have let the police handle it and a kid who was unarmed ended up dead. This case isn't about whether Zimmerman is wrong, it's really about the level of actual moral culpability he has for the death of Martin. Based on what we do know of what happened, there's a floor on where that starts of "some".
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derhoya
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Post by derhoya on Mar 30, 2012 6:42:25 GMT -5
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 30, 2012 8:34:47 GMT -5
That this case isn't like Duke Lacrosse, where it was a question of whether the accused even did something wrong. We know Zimmerman did something wrong here - he should have let the police handle it and a kid who was unarmed ended up dead. This case isn't about whether Zimmerman is wrong, it's really about the level of actual moral culpability he has for the death of Martin. Based on what we do know of what happened, there's a floor on where that starts of "some". Actually, in the Duke lacrosse case, it was a question of what wrongs were committed by the team members, not whether they even did something wrong. They had a party with drugs, alcohol, prostitutes and who know what else. And the Zimmerman case isn't about moral culpability, it's about legal capability. Al Sharpton's track suit isn't bunched up because no one is holding Zimmerman morally cupable. He's in Florida because the police/DA have failed to start the process to hold Zimmerman legally culpable. No one I know of is claiming Zimmerman didn't shoot Martin, or that he didn't have fault for what happened. The issue whether he committed a crime (or, at the least, whether there's probable cause that he did).
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 30, 2012 8:56:55 GMT -5
I dont know which way this cuts, but the issue that bothers me the most is the job the police did. How many shooting investigations does the city of Sanford do a year? You are telling me that they couldnt invest a little more time into the investigation of the shooting death of a 17 year old by a private citizen? I wouldnt want to live in that craphole.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Mar 30, 2012 8:57:58 GMT -5
That this case isn't like Duke Lacrosse, where it was a question of whether the accused even did something wrong. We know Zimmerman did something wrong here - he should have let the police handle it and a kid who was unarmed ended up dead. This case isn't about whether Zimmerman is wrong, it's really about the level of actual moral culpability he has for the death of Martin. Based on what we do know of what happened, there's a floor on where that starts of "some". Actually, in the Duke lacrosse case, it was a question of what wrongs were committed by the team members, not whether they even did something wrong. They had a party with drugs, alcohol, prostitutes and who know what else. And the Zimmerman case isn't about moral culpability, it's about legal capability. Al Sharpton's track suit isn't bunched up because no one is holding Zimmerman morally cupable. He's in Florida because the police/DA have failed to start the process to hold Zimmerman legally culpable. No one I know of is claiming Zimmerman didn't shoot Martin, or that he didn't have fault for what happened. The issue whether he committed a crime (or, at the least, whether there's probable cause that he did). Actually Reverend Al is in Florida because it's where the cameras are. He is a liar and charlatan of the worst kind. To use the verbiage one of his finer and nobler causes, he is there to "manipsmate" the situation for his own purposes and fame.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Mar 30, 2012 9:03:44 GMT -5
Where is Jerry Bruckheimer in all of this?
Sorry, that was glib, but I would think a good forensics team might be able to determine if there actually was a struggle on the ground, based on the nature of the bullet wound, powder burns, things like that. Hell, what if the gun went off accidentally? Is that even a possibility? I know Zimmerman is not talking, nor should he, given the charges he could face, but has anyone considered that? I haven't heard it from anywhere.
Not that I believe all of this evidence needs to be put on display in the media, but I hope some forensic evidence of this nature exists at least.
Again, my initial claim was that the police bungled the investigation. If it turns out they have piles of this type of information - damning, exculpatory or otherwise - I would be happy to retract that accusation.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 30, 2012 9:05:49 GMT -5
I dont know which way this cuts, but the issue that bothers me the most is the job the police did. How many shooting investigations does the city of Sanford do a year? You are telling me that they couldnt invest a little more time into the investigation of the shooting death of a 17 year old by a private citizen? I wouldnt want to live in that craphole. What makes you think they didn't put enough time in to the investigation? According to this, it sounds like the lead detective investigator did everything he could to nail Zimmerman: www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/george-zimmermans-crumbling-story-part-3-the-detective/2012/03/29/gIQA3NvAjS_blog.html?tid=pm_opinions_popYou really have no idea what type of investigation the police did. Why don't you admit that the sole reason you think the police did a crappy job is because Zimmerman hasn't been charged with anything.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 30, 2012 9:13:07 GMT -5
I dont know which way this cuts, but the issue that bothers me the most is the job the police did. How many shooting investigations does the city of Sanford do a year? You are telling me that they couldnt invest a little more time into the investigation of the shooting death of a 17 year old by a private citizen? I wouldnt want to live in that craphole. What makes you think they didn't put enough time in to the investigation? According to this, it sounds like the lead detective investigator did everything he could to nail Zimmerman: www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/george-zimmermans-crumbling-story-part-3-the-detective/2012/03/29/gIQA3NvAjS_blog.html?tid=pm_opinions_popYou really have no idea what type of investigation the police did. Why don't you admit that the sole reason you think the police did a crappy job is because Zimmerman hasn't been charged with anything. I know what the police did. It's there for everyone to see. Thanks again for trying to tell me what I meant to say. You are good at that. Too bad you are always wrong.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 30, 2012 9:15:33 GMT -5
I know what the police did. It's there for everyone to see. Thanks again for trying to tell me what I meant to say. You are good at that. Too bad you are always wrong. If you're so all-knowing that you know everything that the police did and didn't do, then there's no sense in continuing this. Maybe you should go down to Florida and set everyone straight.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 30, 2012 9:18:23 GMT -5
Where is Jerry Bruckheimer in all of this? Sorry, that was glib, but I would think a good forensics team might be able to determine if there actually was a struggle on the ground, based on the nature of the bullet wound, powder burns, things like that. Hell, what if the gun went off accidentally? Is that even a possibility? I know Zimmerman is not talking, nor should he, given the charges he could face, but has anyone considered that? I haven't heard it from anywhere. Not that I believe all of this evidence needs to be put on display in the media, but I hope some forensic evidence of this nature exists at least. Again, my initial claim was that the police bungled the investigation. If it turns out they have piles of this type of information - damning, exculpatory or otherwise - I would be happy to retract that accusation. Yes. That is my point as well. How can there possibly be any questions about whether there was a significant fight or not? Somehow, there are. That seems pretty damning. It's just my opinion.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 30, 2012 9:19:07 GMT -5
I know what the police did. It's there for everyone to see. Thanks again for trying to tell me what I meant to say. You are good at that. Too bad you are always wrong. If you're so all-knowing that you know everything that the police did and didn't do, then there's no sense in continuing this. Maybe you should go down to Florida and set everyone straight. Nah, I will just comment on the Gtown message board instead. But, thanks for policing the website. Maybe, you should go down there.
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Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Mar 30, 2012 9:19:39 GMT -5
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 30, 2012 9:20:24 GMT -5
No one I know of is claiming Zimmerman didn't shoot Martin, or that he didn't have fault for what happened. The issue whether he committed a crime (or, at the least, whether there's probable cause that he did). When someone makes a comparison to the Duke Lacrosse case, I think they are. And I don't agree that the Duke Lacrosse case was about what wrongs they committed - no one cared about the drugs, alcohol, or strippers - sure, it made them look scummy - but the story people cared about were the rape and racial slurs. Those were in question in the conflicting accounts of the Duke Lacrosse case - the fact Trayvon Martin was shot by George Zimmerman is not in question.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Mar 30, 2012 9:40:58 GMT -5
Where is Jerry Bruckheimer in all of this? Sorry, that was glib, but I would think a good forensics team might be able to determine if there actually was a struggle on the ground, based on the nature of the bullet wound, powder burns, things like that. Hell, what if the gun went off accidentally? Is that even a possibility? I know Zimmerman is not talking, nor should he, given the charges he could face, but has anyone considered that? I haven't heard it from anywhere. Not that I believe all of this evidence needs to be put on display in the media, but I hope some forensic evidence of this nature exists at least. Again, my initial claim was that the police bungled the investigation. If it turns out they have piles of this type of information - damning, exculpatory or otherwise - I would be happy to retract that accusation. Yes. That is my point as well. How can there possibly be any questions about whether there was a significant fight or not? Somehow, there are. That seems pretty damning. It's just my opinion. I think you misread me. Of course there are questions. There are questions because we do not know all of the evidence that is available. And has or has not been collected. That's the problem with people like Jonathan Capehart. His "reporting" that was just linked in this thread is nothing of the sort. There are so many problems with that column, it is ridiculous. He is calling someone a "witness" who never saw a damn thing. He is taking a statement from a mortician who said "it didn't look like" there was a struggle as definitive physical evidence that there was none. He is saying that "Zimmerman's story" is crumbling when Zimmerman himself has said absolutely nothing. I think the points I was trying to make (and I can be kind of incoherent sometimes, so maybe I wasn't clear and I apologize for that) were this: - If the police collected a lot of forensic evidence, then I think I was wrong in accusing them of bungling. - Nothing we are hearing on television, reading in the papers or discussing online constitutes evidence AT ALL. - And because we are dealing with a situation where there were virtually no witnesses (one person who thinks he saw "something" and a bunch of people who heard some shouting or calls for help are not what I would call reliable witnesses in the least), and one of the people in the incident is dead, the only path to the truth - that I can see anyway - is going to lie in a forensics report, which no one has seen publicly. I am merely hoping that one exists and it can lead to a relatively definitive conclusion. In the meantime, yes there are going to be questions. How you can say, given what is available to us, that you see no way anyone can question whether there was a struggle, well I just don't get that.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Mar 30, 2012 10:36:59 GMT -5
There are at least two pieces of evidence that we have seen or heard on TV -- the 911 tape of Zimmerman's call and the videotape of Zimmerman at the police station. That assumes a proper foundation is laid for the admissibility of the recording and videotape in any court proceeding. One cannot conclude anything from those two pieces of evidence standing alone. IMO, the mortician's observation of the condition of the body may have evidentiary value, but not his conclusion that no violent struggle occurred. I do not know if an autopsy was performed on the deceased but assume that the Medical Examiner's report would have evidentiary value as to cause and manner of death. If so, I do not think the mortician's testimony would have much value unless there is an attack upon the autopsy results and the family requests its own, which I assume would occur once this gets to civil litigation -- I assume it will.
The fact that the detective was pushing for an arrest/prosecution and the original prosecutor overruled him is unremarkable as far as I am concerned. It is not unusual for tension to exist between the cops and prosecutors (hence the TV series "Law & Order."). The cop brings the facts to the prosecutor and he/she makes a legal determination whether probable cause exists to arrest. Obviously, the original prosecutor did not believe PC existed and no one on this board is any particular position to second guess him, since, as you note, no one is privy to all the evidence.
Just my 2 cents.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Mar 30, 2012 13:04:29 GMT -5
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 30, 2012 13:12:49 GMT -5
Wow, that article is awful.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Mar 30, 2012 13:19:50 GMT -5
He'll be writing a column about his conversation with an empty chair soon. The guy is a joke.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Mar 30, 2012 18:47:29 GMT -5
This is the new Natalie Holloway like, media frenzy story for this year. As we ignore the other thousands killed on the streets of the U.S. But, hey, it sells air time and newspapers.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Mar 30, 2012 19:29:45 GMT -5
Good to see the socially responsible Reverend Al call for an "escalation" in civil disobedience unless and until Zimmerman is arrested. This is classic Reverend Al. Insert one's self into a situation nd make it worse. Brawley, the Harlem fire, etc are al examples of his sense of social responsibility. Watch him slink away after his call results in the inevitable violence. He will claim that he did not know dropping a match on this tinderbox would lead to fire.
And, as always, he will get a pass on his bad behavior.
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