NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,927
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Post by NCHoya on Mar 19, 2012 15:02:13 GMT -5
I agree with a lot in these last few posts. Next season is going to be a challenge. My two biggest fears are a leadership void and our offensive stagnation.
It will be tough without a senior class next year, and I would look for Markel and one other to be the leaders on and off the floor. Markel seems to have good leadership qualities, but is a little light in the production department. I do feel he is the biggest component next season. If he develops into a serviceable PG, this team could be dangerous. But without that development, I think it is too much to think our wing players, Greg and Otto, can push this team beyond the 7-8 position in the BE standings.
Our offense needed some help this season and I am not sure if it will be better next season. Defense will have to remain priority #1 for this team to be successful next season, but Henry will be tough to replace. Hopkins had flashes but more offensively than defensively and I am hoping Moses knee is fully recovered and he can be a defensive force. I am also hoping DSR lives up to the scoring hype and is instant offense. That is something we need so much of next season and if we haev 4 other guys that can cover for DSR on defense that would be ideal.
I do think there is a need for a "go to" guy in the clutch. Greg really seemed to get more and more comfortable on offense and I think next year he makes the biggest statistical jump on offense. Otto seems so comfortable in that outstanding supporting role. I can see Otto being a reluctant superstar, but who knows, as long as the competition between Greg or Otto remains for the good of the team, we will have one of them rise up.
Interesting to see how the pieces fit. I wish we knew more about the abilities of Moses and Tyler. So much will depend on their ability to provide size next season.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,487
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 19, 2012 16:31:18 GMT -5
Losing by a basket to a major conference team because we had a poor night offensively and lacked depth inside
is not
Losing by a billion to a mid-major by playing matador defense all game
Not a great ending but one that can be different next year with a little experience, a few more players, and another year with Othella on the bench. We'll get there. This wasn't "same old, same old" of the past few years. It's just unfortunate it had to come on the heels of those debacles so that's the story they'll print.
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Post by summersshowers on Mar 19, 2012 16:59:06 GMT -5
So should I only support those posters who are good spellers? I can't cheer for a poster and wish he spelled better? I can't cheer for a poster and not want to accept his orthographic mediocrity? Already people are talking about his next post and how grammatically impressive it will be. Based on what? So why do you support such a mid-level team then? I'm sure there are plenty of top-level teams more suitable for your rooting interest. So should I only cheer for a front runner? I can't cheer for a team and wish they do better? I can't cheer for a team and not want to except its mediocrity? Already people are talking about next years team and how great it will be. Based on what?
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
Posts: 8,740
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Post by TBird41 on Mar 19, 2012 17:27:40 GMT -5
The use of "orthographic" is what makes that post awesome.
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gahoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 621
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Post by gahoya on Mar 19, 2012 20:35:09 GMT -5
I agree with a lot in these last few posts. Next season is going to be a challenge. My two biggest fears are a leadership void and our offensive stagnation. It will be tough without a senior class next year, and I would look for Markel and one other to be the leaders on and off the floor. Markel seems to have good leadership qualities, but is a little light in the production department. I do feel he is the biggest component next season. If he develops into a serviceable PG, this team could be dangerous. But without that development, I think it is too much to think our wing players, Greg and Otto, can push this team beyond the 7-8 position in the BE standings. Our offense needed some help this season and I am not sure if it will be better next season. Defense will have to remain priority #1 for this team to be successful next season, but Henry will be tough to replace. Hopkins had flashes but more offensively than defensively and I am hoping Moses knee is fully recovered and he can be a defensive force. I am also hoping DSR lives up to the scoring hype and is instant offense. That is something we need so much of next season and if we haev 4 other guys that can cover for DSR on defense that would be ideal. I do think there is a need for a "go to" guy in the clutch. Greg really seemed to get more and more comfortable on offense and I think next year he makes the biggest statistical jump on offense. Otto seems so comfortable in that outstanding supporting role. I can see Otto being a reluctant superstar, but who knows, as long as the competition between Greg or Otto remains for the good of the team, we will have one of them rise up. Interesting to see how the pieces fit. I wish we knew more about the abilities of Moses and Tyler. So much will depend on their ability to provide size next season. At the same time last year the same things were being said. We lost Julian, Chris, and Austin, and there were scary statistics floating around of how many rebounds that we will be missing this year and how many points won't be there. Would we ever score more than fifteen in a single game? We'll be fine. Players progress. Coaches coach. People will step up, and new bodies will come in. Rinse, repeat.
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HoyaSpirit
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Gotta love Smitty - 1989 Big East Player of the Year
Posts: 305
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Post by HoyaSpirit on Mar 19, 2012 21:51:24 GMT -5
I think the team will be fine enough next year in the regular season. Hollis and Porter are top level players, and Starks and Whit are pretty good, and the 2 other frosh will grow with age, and Lubick could improve given he'll spend 3 months with a coach, his Dad this summer, plus incoming recruits.
For me overall bottom line is that we've had top 20 talent most of the last 5 years, and when it counts have in essence performed lower than top 32 four out of the last five years and between 17 and 32 one year, not once making it out of the opening weekend of the tourney. I started becoming aware of the problems years ago. I like most of the players we get - talented and also good people - and I see the same coaching weaknesses hurt the team. Attempts at posting about most of them are typically met with attacks. In some ways, this forum resembles a grade school classroom in that many people try to ridicule or attack rather than debate your actual points.
On the Net, I try to go by the criteria that if I wouldn't say something to someone face to face, I don't say it. Yet I've seen things on here quite often in the past that go well over that line into derision, ridicule and nastiness. I say "in the past" because I only came on this site several times this year due to the problems on it and even in brief visits, I see it. A good example is banter about #2 worst post of the year. I'm pretty sure those people don't say those things face to face to people.
This board is to a good degree like an echo chamber. Just because a bunch of people in one forum say the same thing doesn't make it so. In the rest of the world, people have G-town as only a 4-point favorite over Belmont in part because they are aware that JT3 does not have strong game plans or strong in game coaching; and that while other teams improve a lot as the season goes on, we usually don't. I'm being partially kind in that many other people would say we get worse and/or have meltdowns, or make tougher assessments. The "they're out to get us" mindset doesn't get us as fans anywhere when it comes to assessing things, especially when they are by and large right.
My Dad, who has played a lot of hoops in his 68 years and has been on the Georgetown board of directors and one of the smartest people I know agrees with what I wrote in my post, and calls me to make those points, more than I do. So you think he too and half the country are all dumb and don't know a thing?
Based on all the above, including the rudeness of fellow fans, my plan is to reduce to a couple of games next year when I'm around and have nothing else to do. I just don't like to invest my time in something I'm now somewhat sure is 80% of the time going to underperform and repeat the same mistakes. My Dad pretty much only watches games when I tell him they're on, so my guess is he won't be investing himself in the program much either. I do like JT 3 as a person because I think he's a good guy, and I think he has the potential to do better, or I would not have bothered to put the time to writing the post.
Out of all NCAA coaches, I rate him around a B. But for programs like ours in the mid to upper half of the top 3 hoops conferences, I rate him about average. I rate him a B+ getting close to an A- for recruiting. But I'd rather have an average recruiter who coaches great, than a strong recruiter who coaches average. I don't like seeing talent and opportunities not being used. I think the pre-season coaches poll is overused. I bet they spend 15 minutes scribbling the names down, knowing it doesn't matter much and will change very soon once the season is under way. Every year there are wild swings based on that poll, so I don't give it much attention these days.
I bet they have not studied all the other incoming classes in depth, plus you don't really know how those kids are going to be in college until their first months, and often you don't know until they're given a chance to play real minutes and adjust. Clearly Porter is a gem, and played like a junior or senior from the start, so when we have him plus 2 seniors and a junior starting and playing most of the minutes, you can't make the "we were mostly freshman and soph's" argument, and JT3 made it happen. JT3 admits Porter came ready from the start. So we had the equivalent of 4 upperclassmen starting. Plus a lot of teams have young players.
Whittington is pretty good, and the other two frosh are good and gave us good minutes for frosh. Our 8 and 9 guys were much better than other teams 8 and 9 guys. Sims may well be a first round draft pick and likely should have gotten more minutes sooner (the games I saw him in last year he played well and thought he deserved more PT), Starks is pretty good (and he got few minutes for good reason last year because we were way overloaded at guard, so few people knew he was pretty good - but the fact we didn't get to see these people last year doesn't mean the talent wasn't there and somehow), Jason Clark is really good, and Hollis Thompson if he stays in school will probably be an NBA draft pick. All in all we had a lot of talent and were deep.
I like JT3 better as the leader of a program than some other coaches who I think have better game plans, and better in-game moves, and who are better at instilling things like boxing out and not resorting to jacking up bad 3s. But his coaching weaknesses, repeated for five years running, are too much for me at present to invest in it and get my hopes up to be disappointed. That the fan base seems to be blindly faithful and sort of in denial makes me less interested in being part of it. And I've to some degree grown to dislike Hoya fans because outside of my Dad and a small number of friends I kept up with through the business of life, the contact I've had with Hoya fans has been on this board and a fairly sizable percentage of fans veer too quickly towards ridicule, taunts, derision and other things that are turnoffs.
I wish the players luck, and hope JT3 improves. I will definitely congratulate him if he does. Improvement means fixing a good number of the problems. Getting hot for 3-4 games in a single tourney (or being so loaded like we were in 07-08 that even an average coach would win) won't mean that he has. Consistently instilling the core fundamentals (including boxing out and not jacking bad 3s), consistently making use of the talent and consistently coaching better games (both pre-game strategy and in game coaching) is what will.
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,604
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Post by guru on Mar 19, 2012 22:05:29 GMT -5
I think the team will be fine enough next year in the regular season. Hollis and Porter are top level players, and Starks and Whit are pretty good, and the 2 other frosh will grow with age, and Lubick could improve given he'll spend 3 months with a coach, his Dad this summer, plus incoming recruits. For me overall bottom line is that we've had top 20 talent most of the last 5 years, and when it counts have in essence performed lower than top 32 four out of the last five years and between 17 and 32 one year, not once making it out of the opening weekend of the tourney. I started becoming aware of the problems years ago. I like most of the players we get - talented and also good people - and I see the same coaching weaknesses hurt the team. Attempts at posting about most of them are typically met with attacks. In some ways, this forum resembles a grade school classroom in that many people try to ridicule or attack rather than debate your actual points. On the Net, I try to go by the criteria that if I wouldn't say something to someone face to face, I don't say it. Yet I've seen things on here quite often in the past that go well over that line into derision, ridicule and nastiness. I say "in the past" because I only came on this site several times this year due to the problems on it and even in brief visits, I see it. A good example is banter about #2 worst post of the year. I'm pretty sure those people don't say those things face to face to people. This board is to a good degree like an echo chamber. Just because a bunch of people in one forum say the same thing doesn't make it so. In the rest of the world, people have G-town as only a 4-point favorite over Belmont in part because they are aware that JT3 does not have strong game plans or strong in game coaching; and that while other teams improve a lot as the season goes on, we usually don't. I'm being partially kind in that many other people would say we get worse and/or have meltdowns, or make tougher assessments. The "they're out to get us" mindset doesn't get us as fans anywhere when it comes to assessing things, especially when they are by and large right. My Dad, who has played a lot of hoops in his 68 years and has been on the Georgetown board of directors and one of the smartest people I know agrees with what I wrote in my post, and calls me to make those points, more than I do. So you think he too and half the country are all dumb and don't know a thing? Based on all the above, including the rudeness of fellow fans, my plan is to reduce to a couple of games next year when I'm around and have nothing else to do. I just don't like to invest my time in something I'm now somewhat sure is 80% of the time going to underperform and repeat the same mistakes. My Dad pretty much only watches games when I tell him they're on, so my guess is he won't be investing himself in the program much either. I do like JT 3 as a person because I think he's a good guy, and I think he has the potential to do better, or I would not have bothered to put the time to writing the post. Out of all NCAA coaches, I rate him around a B. But for programs like ours in the mid to upper half of the top 3 hoops conferences, I rate him about average. I rate him a B+ getting close to an A- for recruiting. But I'd rather have an average recruiter who coaches great, than a strong recruiter who coaches average. I don't like seeing talent and opportunities not being used. I think the pre-season coaches poll is overused. I bet they spend 15 minutes scribbling the names down, knowing it doesn't matter much and will change very soon once the season is under way. Every year there are wild swings based on that poll, so I don't give it much attention these days. I bet they have not studied all the other incoming classes in depth, plus you don't really know how those kids are going to be in college until their first months, and often you don't know until they're given a chance to play real minutes and adjust. Clearly Porter is a gem, and played like a junior or senior from the start, so when we have him plus 2 seniors and a junior starting and playing most of the minutes, you can't make the "we were mostly freshman and soph's" argument, and JT3 made it happen. JT3 admits Porter came ready from the start. So we had the equivalent of 4 upperclassmen starting. Plus a lot of teams have young players. Whittington is pretty good, and the other two frosh are good and gave us good minutes for frosh. Our 8 and 9 guys were much better than other teams 8 and 9 guys. Sims may well be a first round draft pick and likely should have gotten more minutes sooner (the games I saw him in last year he played well and thought he deserved more PT), Starks is pretty good (and he got few minutes for good reason last year because we were way overloaded at guard, so few people knew he was pretty good - but the fact we didn't get to see these people last year doesn't mean the talent wasn't there and somehow), Jason Clark is really good, and Hollis Thompson if he stays in school will probably be an NBA draft pick. All in all we had a lot of talent and were deep. I like JT3 better as the leader of a program than some other coaches who I think have better game plans, and better in-game moves, and who are better at instilling things like boxing out and not resorting to jacking up bad 3s. But his coaching weaknesses, repeated for five years running, are too much for me at present to invest in it and get my hopes up to be disappointed. That the fan base seems to be blindly faithful and sort of in denial makes me less interested in being part of it. And I've to some degree grown to dislike Hoya fans because outside of my Dad and a small number of friends I kept up with through the business of life, the contact I've had with Hoya fans has been on this board and a fairly sizable percentage of fans veer too quickly towards ridicule, taunts, derision and other things that are turnoffs. I wish the players luck, and hope JT3 improves. I will definitely congratulate him if he does. Improvement means fixing a good number of the problems. Getting hot for 3-4 games in a single tourney (or being so loaded like we were in 07-08 that even an average coach would win) won't mean that he has. Consistently instilling the core fundamentals (including boxing out and not jacking bad 3s), consistently making use of the talent and consistently coaching better games (both pre-game strategy and in game coaching) is what will. Sorry, man, but anyone who writes a post like that one isn't going to able to turn his back on the program so easily. You'll be sucked right back in next season. You and your dad.
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kghoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,996
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Post by kghoya on Mar 19, 2012 22:18:23 GMT -5
Just the other day I was thinking to myself, does HoyaSpirit's dad know when the games are on or does HoyaSpirit himself have to remind his old man?
Well now that that's all cleared up, it's time to count down to Kenner League...
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mfk24
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,759
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Post by mfk24 on Mar 19, 2012 22:19:40 GMT -5
For me overall bottom line is that we've had top 20 talent most of the last 5 years, and when it counts have in essence performed lower than top 32 four out of the last five years and between 17 and 32 one year, not once making it out of the opening weekend of the tourney. I started becoming aware of the problems years ago. I like most of the players we get - talented and also good people - and I see the same coaching weaknesses hurt the team. Attempts at posting about most of them are typically met with attacks. In some ways, this forum resembles a grade school classroom in that many people try to ridicule or attack rather than debate your actual points. That's the thing people forget.....ANYTHING can happen in a single elimination tournament and if you're evaluation of anything is based on the results of that tournament, it seems silly IMO. I posted this in another thread but obviously it made a bit too much sense for people to comment on. You can look at any coaches tourney records and find the same trend of tourney failure: Michigan State has made the tourney every year since 1998, from 2001 to 2007 they were bounced in the first or second round 4/6 times. Duke lost in the first or second round back to back years in '06, '07. UNC lost in the first or second round 4 straight years from '01-'04. Should I go on.... That's Izzo, Williams, and Coach K, arguably the coaches with the best post-season success. I agree that every coach has weaknesses and JTIII isn't excluded, and I understand being frustrated and disappointed, but every team's season ends in a disappointing loss but 1.
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Post by professorhoya on Mar 19, 2012 23:09:12 GMT -5
I think the team will be fine enough next year in the regular season. Hollis and Porter are top level players, and Starks and Whit are pretty good, and the 2 other frosh will grow with age, and Lubick could improve given he'll spend 3 months with a coach, his Dad this summer, plus incoming recruits. For me overall bottom line is that we've had top 20 talent most of the last 5 years, and when it counts have in essence performed lower than top 32 four out of the last five years and between 17 and 32 one year, not once making it out of the opening weekend of the tourney. I started becoming aware of the problems years ago. I like most of the players we get - talented and also good people - and I see the same coaching weaknesses hurt the team. Attempts at posting about most of them are typically met with attacks. In some ways, this forum resembles a grade school classroom in that many people try to ridicule or attack rather than debate your actual points. On the Net, I try to go by the criteria that if I wouldn't say something to someone face to face, I don't say it. Yet I've seen things on here quite often in the past that go well over that line into derision, ridicule and nastiness. I say "in the past" because I only came on this site several times this year due to the problems on it and even in brief visits, I see it. A good example is banter about #2 worst post of the year. I'm pretty sure those people don't say those things face to face to people. This board is to a good degree like an echo chamber. Just because a bunch of people in one forum say the same thing doesn't make it so. In the rest of the world, people have G-town as only a 4-point favorite over Belmont in part because they are aware that JT3 does not have strong game plans or strong in game coaching; and that while other teams improve a lot as the season goes on, we usually don't. I'm being partially kind in that many other people would say we get worse and/or have meltdowns, or make tougher assessments. The "they're out to get us" mindset doesn't get us as fans anywhere when it comes to assessing things, especially when they are by and large right. My Dad, who has played a lot of hoops in his 68 years and has been on the Georgetown board of directors and one of the smartest people I know agrees with what I wrote in my post, and calls me to make those points, more than I do. So you think he too and half the country are all dumb and don't know a thing? Based on all the above, including the rudeness of fellow fans, my plan is to reduce to a couple of games next year when I'm around and have nothing else to do. I just don't like to invest my time in something I'm now somewhat sure is 80% of the time going to underperform and repeat the same mistakes. My Dad pretty much only watches games when I tell him they're on, so my guess is he won't be investing himself in the program much either. I do like JT 3 as a person because I think he's a good guy, and I think he has the potential to do better, or I would not have bothered to put the time to writing the post. Out of all NCAA coaches, I rate him around a B. But for programs like ours in the mid to upper half of the top 3 hoops conferences, I rate him about average. I rate him a B+ getting close to an A- for recruiting. But I'd rather have an average recruiter who coaches great, than a strong recruiter who coaches average. I don't like seeing talent and opportunities not being used. I think the pre-season coaches poll is overused. I bet they spend 15 minutes scribbling the names down, knowing it doesn't matter much and will change very soon once the season is under way. Every year there are wild swings based on that poll, so I don't give it much attention these days. I bet they have not studied all the other incoming classes in depth, plus you don't really know how those kids are going to be in college until their first months, and often you don't know until they're given a chance to play real minutes and adjust. Clearly Porter is a gem, and played like a junior or senior from the start, so when we have him plus 2 seniors and a junior starting and playing most of the minutes, you can't make the "we were mostly freshman and soph's" argument, and JT3 made it happen. JT3 admits Porter came ready from the start. So we had the equivalent of 4 upperclassmen starting. Plus a lot of teams have young players. Whittington is pretty good, and the other two frosh are good and gave us good minutes for frosh. Our 8 and 9 guys were much better than other teams 8 and 9 guys. Sims may well be a first round draft pick and likely should have gotten more minutes sooner (the games I saw him in last year he played well and thought he deserved more PT), Starks is pretty good (and he got few minutes for good reason last year because we were way overloaded at guard, so few people knew he was pretty good - but the fact we didn't get to see these people last year doesn't mean the talent wasn't there and somehow), Jason Clark is really good, and Hollis Thompson if he stays in school will probably be an NBA draft pick. All in all we had a lot of talent and were deep. I like JT3 better as the leader of a program than some other coaches who I think have better game plans, and better in-game moves, and who are better at instilling things like boxing out and not resorting to jacking up bad 3s. But his coaching weaknesses, repeated for five years running, are too much for me at present to invest in it and get my hopes up to be disappointed. That the fan base seems to be blindly faithful and sort of in denial makes me less interested in being part of it. And I've to some degree grown to dislike Hoya fans because outside of my Dad and a small number of friends I kept up with through the business of life, the contact I've had with Hoya fans has been on this board and a fairly sizable percentage of fans veer too quickly towards ridicule, taunts, derision and other things that are turnoffs. I wish the players luck, and hope JT3 improves. I will definitely congratulate him if he does. Improvement means fixing a good number of the problems. Getting hot for 3-4 games in a single tourney (or being so loaded like we were in 07-08 that even an average coach would win) won't mean that he has. Consistently instilling the core fundamentals (including boxing out and not jacking bad 3s), consistently making use of the talent and consistently coaching better games (both pre-game strategy and in game coaching) is what will. Note that this post was written 3 days before the Belmont game.
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hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
Posts: 8,394
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Post by hoyainspirit on Mar 20, 2012 6:47:04 GMT -5
I think the team will be fine enough next year in the regular season. Hollis and Porter are top level players, and Starks and Whit are pretty good, and the 2 other frosh will grow with age, and Lubick could improve given he'll spend 3 months with a coach, his Dad this summer, plus incoming recruits. For me overall bottom line is that we've had top 20 talent most of the last 5 years, and when it counts have in essence performed lower than top 32 four out of the last five years and between 17 and 32 one year, not once making it out of the opening weekend of the tourney. I started becoming aware of the problems years ago. I like most of the players we get - talented and also good people - and I see the same coaching weaknesses hurt the team. Attempts at posting about most of them are typically met with attacks. In some ways, this forum resembles a grade school classroom in that many people try to ridicule or attack rather than debate your actual points. On the Net, I try to go by the criteria that if I wouldn't say something to someone face to face, I don't say it. Yet I've seen things on here quite often in the past that go well over that line into derision, ridicule and nastiness. I say "in the past" because I only came on this site several times this year due to the problems on it and even in brief visits, I see it. A good example is banter about #2 worst post of the year. I'm pretty sure those people don't say those things face to face to people. This board is to a good degree like an echo chamber. Just because a bunch of people in one forum say the same thing doesn't make it so. In the rest of the world, people have G-town as only a 4-point favorite over Belmont in part because they are aware that JT3 does not have strong game plans or strong in game coaching; and that while other teams improve a lot as the season goes on, we usually don't. I'm being partially kind in that many other people would say we get worse and/or have meltdowns, or make tougher assessments. The "they're out to get us" mindset doesn't get us as fans anywhere when it comes to assessing things, especially when they are by and large right. My Dad, who has played a lot of hoops in his 68 years and has been on the Georgetown board of directors and one of the smartest people I know agrees with what I wrote in my post, and calls me to make those points, more than I do. So you think he too and half the country are all dumb and don't know a thing? Based on all the above, including the rudeness of fellow fans, my plan is to reduce to a couple of games next year when I'm around and have nothing else to do. I just don't like to invest my time in something I'm now somewhat sure is 80% of the time going to underperform and repeat the same mistakes. My Dad pretty much only watches games when I tell him they're on, so my guess is he won't be investing himself in the program much either. I do like JT 3 as a person because I think he's a good guy, and I think he has the potential to do better, or I would not have bothered to put the time to writing the post. Out of all NCAA coaches, I rate him around a B. But for programs like ours in the mid to upper half of the top 3 hoops conferences, I rate him about average. I rate him a B+ getting close to an A- for recruiting. But I'd rather have an average recruiter who coaches great, than a strong recruiter who coaches average. I don't like seeing talent and opportunities not being used. I think the pre-season coaches poll is overused. I bet they spend 15 minutes scribbling the names down, knowing it doesn't matter much and will change very soon once the season is under way. Every year there are wild swings based on that poll, so I don't give it much attention these days. I bet they have not studied all the other incoming classes in depth, plus you don't really know how those kids are going to be in college until their first months, and often you don't know until they're given a chance to play real minutes and adjust. Clearly Porter is a gem, and played like a junior or senior from the start, so when we have him plus 2 seniors and a junior starting and playing most of the minutes, you can't make the "we were mostly freshman and soph's" argument, and JT3 made it happen. JT3 admits Porter came ready from the start. So we had the equivalent of 4 upperclassmen starting. Plus a lot of teams have young players. Whittington is pretty good, and the other two frosh are good and gave us good minutes for frosh. Our 8 and 9 guys were much better than other teams 8 and 9 guys. Sims may well be a first round draft pick and likely should have gotten more minutes sooner (the games I saw him in last year he played well and thought he deserved more PT), Starks is pretty good (and he got few minutes for good reason last year because we were way overloaded at guard, so few people knew he was pretty good - but the fact we didn't get to see these people last year doesn't mean the talent wasn't there and somehow), Jason Clark is really good, and Hollis Thompson if he stays in school will probably be an NBA draft pick. All in all we had a lot of talent and were deep. I like JT3 better as the leader of a program than some other coaches who I think have better game plans, and better in-game moves, and who are better at instilling things like boxing out and not resorting to jacking up bad 3s. But his coaching weaknesses, repeated for five years running, are too much for me at present to invest in it and get my hopes up to be disappointed. That the fan base seems to be blindly faithful and sort of in denial makes me less interested in being part of it. And I've to some degree grown to dislike Hoya fans because outside of my Dad and a small number of friends I kept up with through the business of life, the contact I've had with Hoya fans has been on this board and a fairly sizable percentage of fans veer too quickly towards ridicule, taunts, derision and other things that are turnoffs. I wish the players luck, and hope JT3 improves. I will definitely congratulate him if he does. Improvement means fixing a good number of the problems. Getting hot for 3-4 games in a single tourney (or being so loaded like we were in 07-08 that even an average coach would win) won't mean that he has. Consistently instilling the core fundamentals (including boxing out and not jacking bad 3s), consistently making use of the talent and consistently coaching better games (both pre-game strategy and in game coaching) is what will. Bye.
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IDenj
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,527
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Post by IDenj on Mar 20, 2012 8:18:01 GMT -5
I think the team will be fine enough next year in the regular season. Hollis and Porter are top level players, and Starks and Whit are pretty good, and the 2 other frosh will grow with age, and Lubick could improve given he'll spend 3 months with a coach, his Dad this summer, plus incoming recruits. For me overall bottom line is that we've had top 20 talent most of the last 5 years, and when it counts have in essence performed lower than top 32 four out of the last five years and between 17 and 32 one year, not once making it out of the opening weekend of the tourney. I started becoming aware of the problems years ago. I like most of the players we get - talented and also good people - and I see the same coaching weaknesses hurt the team. Attempts at posting about most of them are typically met with attacks. In some ways, this forum resembles a grade school classroom in that many people try to ridicule or attack rather than debate your actual points. On the Net, I try to go by the criteria that if I wouldn't say something to someone face to face, I don't say it. Yet I've seen things on here quite often in the past that go well over that line into derision, ridicule and nastiness. I say "in the past" because I only came on this site several times this year due to the problems on it and even in brief visits, I see it. A good example is banter about #2 worst post of the year. I'm pretty sure those people don't say those things face to face to people. This board is to a good degree like an echo chamber. Just because a bunch of people in one forum say the same thing doesn't make it so. In the rest of the world, people have G-town as only a 4-point favorite over Belmont in part because they are aware that JT3 does not have strong game plans or strong in game coaching; and that while other teams improve a lot as the season goes on, we usually don't. I'm being partially kind in that many other people would say we get worse and/or have meltdowns, or make tougher assessments. The "they're out to get us" mindset doesn't get us as fans anywhere when it comes to assessing things, especially when they are by and large right. My Dad, who has played a lot of hoops in his 68 years and has been on the Georgetown board of directors and one of the smartest people I know agrees with what I wrote in my post, and calls me to make those points, more than I do. So you think he too and half the country are all dumb and don't know a thing? Based on all the above, including the rudeness of fellow fans, my plan is to reduce to a couple of games next year when I'm around and have nothing else to do. I just don't like to invest my time in something I'm now somewhat sure is 80% of the time going to underperform and repeat the same mistakes. My Dad pretty much only watches games when I tell him they're on, so my guess is he won't be investing himself in the program much either. I do like JT 3 as a person because I think he's a good guy, and I think he has the potential to do better, or I would not have bothered to put the time to writing the post. Out of all NCAA coaches, I rate him around a B. But for programs like ours in the mid to upper half of the top 3 hoops conferences, I rate him about average. I rate him a B+ getting close to an A- for recruiting. But I'd rather have an average recruiter who coaches great, than a strong recruiter who coaches average. I don't like seeing talent and opportunities not being used. I think the pre-season coaches poll is overused. I bet they spend 15 minutes scribbling the names down, knowing it doesn't matter much and will change very soon once the season is under way. Every year there are wild swings based on that poll, so I don't give it much attention these days. I bet they have not studied all the other incoming classes in depth, plus you don't really know how those kids are going to be in college until their first months, and often you don't know until they're given a chance to play real minutes and adjust. Clearly Porter is a gem, and played like a junior or senior from the start, so when we have him plus 2 seniors and a junior starting and playing most of the minutes, you can't make the "we were mostly freshman and soph's" argument, and JT3 made it happen. JT3 admits Porter came ready from the start. So we had the equivalent of 4 upperclassmen starting. Plus a lot of teams have young players. Whittington is pretty good, and the other two frosh are good and gave us good minutes for frosh. Our 8 and 9 guys were much better than other teams 8 and 9 guys. Sims may well be a first round draft pick and likely should have gotten more minutes sooner (the games I saw him in last year he played well and thought he deserved more PT), Starks is pretty good (and he got few minutes for good reason last year because we were way overloaded at guard, so few people knew he was pretty good - but the fact we didn't get to see these people last year doesn't mean the talent wasn't there and somehow), Jason Clark is really good, and Hollis Thompson if he stays in school will probably be an NBA draft pick. All in all we had a lot of talent and were deep. I like JT3 better as the leader of a program than some other coaches who I think have better game plans, and better in-game moves, and who are better at instilling things like boxing out and not resorting to jacking up bad 3s. But his coaching weaknesses, repeated for five years running, are too much for me at present to invest in it and get my hopes up to be disappointed. That the fan base seems to be blindly faithful and sort of in denial makes me less interested in being part of it. And I've to some degree grown to dislike Hoya fans because outside of my Dad and a small number of friends I kept up with through the business of life, the contact I've had with Hoya fans has been on this board and a fairly sizable percentage of fans veer too quickly towards ridicule, taunts, derision and other things that are turnoffs. I wish the players luck, and hope JT3 improves. I will definitely congratulate him if he does. Improvement means fixing a good number of the problems. Getting hot for 3-4 games in a single tourney (or being so loaded like we were in 07-08 that even an average coach would win) won't mean that he has. Consistently instilling the core fundamentals (including boxing out and not jacking bad 3s), consistently making use of the talent and consistently coaching better games (both pre-game strategy and in game coaching) is what will. The nerve of you to have a different opinion based on facts than the kool aid drinkers AND post it on the board... when everything is roses!
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kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Enter your message here...
Posts: 9,934
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Post by kchoya on Mar 20, 2012 8:22:28 GMT -5
I think the team will be fine enough next year in the regular season. Hollis and Porter are top level players, and Starks and Whit are pretty good, and the 2 other frosh will grow with age, and Lubick could improve given he'll spend 3 months with a coach, his Dad this summer, plus incoming recruits. For me overall bottom line is that we've had top 20 talent most of the last 5 years, and when it counts have in essence performed lower than top 32 four out of the last five years and between 17 and 32 one year, not once making it out of the opening weekend of the tourney. I started becoming aware of the problems years ago. I like most of the players we get - talented and also good people - and I see the same coaching weaknesses hurt the team. Attempts at posting about most of them are typically met with attacks. In some ways, this forum resembles a grade school classroom in that many people try to ridicule or attack rather than debate your actual points. On the Net, I try to go by the criteria that if I wouldn't say something to someone face to face, I don't say it. Yet I've seen things on here quite often in the past that go well over that line into derision, ridicule and nastiness. I say "in the past" because I only came on this site several times this year due to the problems on it and even in brief visits, I see it. A good example is banter about #2 worst post of the year. I'm pretty sure those people don't say those things face to face to people. This board is to a good degree like an echo chamber. Just because a bunch of people in one forum say the same thing doesn't make it so. In the rest of the world, people have G-town as only a 4-point favorite over Belmont in part because they are aware that JT3 does not have strong game plans or strong in game coaching; and that while other teams improve a lot as the season goes on, we usually don't. I'm being partially kind in that many other people would say we get worse and/or have meltdowns, or make tougher assessments. The "they're out to get us" mindset doesn't get us as fans anywhere when it comes to assessing things, especially when they are by and large right. My Dad, who has played a lot of hoops in his 68 years and has been on the Georgetown board of directors and one of the smartest people I know agrees with what I wrote in my post, and calls me to make those points, more than I do. So you think he too and half the country are all dumb and don't know a thing? Based on all the above, including the rudeness of fellow fans, my plan is to reduce to a couple of games next year when I'm around and have nothing else to do. I just don't like to invest my time in something I'm now somewhat sure is 80% of the time going to underperform and repeat the same mistakes. My Dad pretty much only watches games when I tell him they're on, so my guess is he won't be investing himself in the program much either. I do like JT 3 as a person because I think he's a good guy, and I think he has the potential to do better, or I would not have bothered to put the time to writing the post. Out of all NCAA coaches, I rate him around a B. But for programs like ours in the mid to upper half of the top 3 hoops conferences, I rate him about average. I rate him a B+ getting close to an A- for recruiting. But I'd rather have an average recruiter who coaches great, than a strong recruiter who coaches average. I don't like seeing talent and opportunities not being used. I think the pre-season coaches poll is overused. I bet they spend 15 minutes scribbling the names down, knowing it doesn't matter much and will change very soon once the season is under way. Every year there are wild swings based on that poll, so I don't give it much attention these days. I bet they have not studied all the other incoming classes in depth, plus you don't really know how those kids are going to be in college until their first months, and often you don't know until they're given a chance to play real minutes and adjust. Clearly Porter is a gem, and played like a junior or senior from the start, so when we have him plus 2 seniors and a junior starting and playing most of the minutes, you can't make the "we were mostly freshman and soph's" argument, and JT3 made it happen. JT3 admits Porter came ready from the start. So we had the equivalent of 4 upperclassmen starting. Plus a lot of teams have young players. Whittington is pretty good, and the other two frosh are good and gave us good minutes for frosh. Our 8 and 9 guys were much better than other teams 8 and 9 guys. Sims may well be a first round draft pick and likely should have gotten more minutes sooner (the games I saw him in last year he played well and thought he deserved more PT), Starks is pretty good (and he got few minutes for good reason last year because we were way overloaded at guard, so few people knew he was pretty good - but the fact we didn't get to see these people last year doesn't mean the talent wasn't there and somehow), Jason Clark is really good, and Hollis Thompson if he stays in school will probably be an NBA draft pick. All in all we had a lot of talent and were deep. I like JT3 better as the leader of a program than some other coaches who I think have better game plans, and better in-game moves, and who are better at instilling things like boxing out and not resorting to jacking up bad 3s. But his coaching weaknesses, repeated for five years running, are too much for me at present to invest in it and get my hopes up to be disappointed. That the fan base seems to be blindly faithful and sort of in denial makes me less interested in being part of it. And I've to some degree grown to dislike Hoya fans because outside of my Dad and a small number of friends I kept up with through the business of life, the contact I've had with Hoya fans has been on this board and a fairly sizable percentage of fans veer too quickly towards ridicule, taunts, derision and other things that are turnoffs. I wish the players luck, and hope JT3 improves. I will definitely congratulate him if he does. Improvement means fixing a good number of the problems. Getting hot for 3-4 games in a single tourney (or being so loaded like we were in 07-08 that even an average coach would win) won't mean that he has. Consistently instilling the core fundamentals (including boxing out and not jacking bad 3s), consistently making use of the talent and consistently coaching better games (both pre-game strategy and in game coaching) is what will. The nerve of you to have a different opinion based on facts than the kool aid drinkers AND post it on the board... when everything is roses! The fact you actually believe that means (1) you have a reading comprehension problem or (2) you're being intentionally obtuse. I don't know which is worse. BTW, you didn't tell us about YOUR daddy.
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IDenj
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,527
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Post by IDenj on Mar 20, 2012 8:25:25 GMT -5
Please post about our success in the tourney over the last few years.
More kool aid?
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,457
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Post by TC on Mar 20, 2012 8:54:32 GMT -5
My Dad, who has played a lot of hoops in his 68 years and has been on the Georgetown board of directors and one of the smartest people I know agrees with what I wrote in my post, and calls me to make those points, more than I do. So you think he too and half the country are all dumb and don't know a thing? Yes. I think you and your Dad and anyone else that anticipates a first round upset so that they can decry the system and the program are what's really wrong with this program - an entitled and unsupportive fanbase that doesn't understand the challenges the program faces in terms of resources and money and where it really stands in a changing college basketball landscape. You're the one being rude. You came on this board with a pre-planned post that you wanted to drop on us decrying the program after the Belmont game. The team won, ruining your narrative. But when Otto Porter's shot didn't go in, you decided to post it. And now you're trying to blame us not accepting your hand-waving based on one game on your lack of interest in going to games next year? You're an awful, awful, awful, excuse for a fan.
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,604
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Post by guru on Mar 20, 2012 8:56:56 GMT -5
Please post about our success in the tourney over the last few years. More kool aid? Please go root for Kentucky or Syracuse. The standard of success is different around here, and - gasp! - it actually goes beyond a one game elimination tournament in March. Yes, I wish the results in the tourney were better recently, but I wouldn't want to root for any other team or coach. If you didn't enjoy following and rooting for this year's team, you really shouldn't bother with Georgetown basketball anymore. Honestly. And I say that as someone bitterly disappointed and angry that the season is over, but still proud of what was accomplished.
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IDenj
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,527
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Post by IDenj on Mar 20, 2012 8:59:39 GMT -5
A fan commenting on the shortcomings of the program is what is wrong here? How is he holding the program back with his commentary?
And it isn't one game. It is 5 years of blowing a tire in the first or second round to inferior competition in the NCAA's.
It ain't a slump if you can't break out of it.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Mar 20, 2012 9:01:13 GMT -5
Enj,
The only fair metric is to compare tourney results since 2006; as we all know our system hasn't changed in the past few years.
Since that time, among Big East teams, only Marquette has been in more NCAA Tournaments, and we have won two more NCAA games than they have (so far) over that span. We have precisely one fewer NCAA win than Pitt, W.Va., Louisville (although they could have more this year), and Nova -- those are the other schools with the same NCAA appearances as we have. We have been in one more tournament than Cuse and won one more game (so far). UConn (at 13-4 over that time span) is the only school with demonstrably more success...but they qualified one fewer year than we have.
So, our success in reaching and winning games in the NCAA tournament really only objectively fails relative to UConn among our BE peers.
You previously wrote about "underperformance based on seed" but in a previous post I showed that our performance and the typical performance of a 2-4 seed have been fairly similar. In short, the better your seed, the more likely you are to underperform! We can't be punished for having had good regular seasons; that doesn't make sense.
Hoyaspirit,
I have no problem with someone with a different opionion; Enj is entitled to his (I don't ridicule him for it, but rather try to provide facts that show, in my opinion, that he's objectively wrong). As for your points, I respectfully disagree also.
Like Enj, you're focusing on 08-12 and excluding 06 and 07. It's fair to say we've underperformed in the NCAA tournament in the years you choose compared to our seed, but in the two previous years, the team overperformed.
Second, you indicate you'll be ratcheting down your interest in viewing because of what you perceive to be the team's underperformance. Obviously that's your right and privilege. But if you're going to watch fewer games for that reason, I would suggest you analyze whether this team (or that of the past few years) really underperformed during the season. Certainly this team overperformed all expectations, except perhaps in the NCAA tournament (when it fell one game short of its seed by three points). To cut back on watching the team for underperforming ignores what I believe is the reality that the team overperformed for most of the games that one could watch.
We'll have to agree to disagree on what you perceive to be the fundamental flaws with the program. First, I haven't analyzed whether the team boxes out less effectively than other teams (maybe you're right), but the statistics show that the team was a good rebounding team this year. Second, I believe JTIII has absolutely shown a desire to get the ball to the post when he has a capable post player. We did it a ton this year with Henry, often going to him in the post every possession in crunch time situations. We tried to establish it even last year with Julian, and when he was effective, our offense was much more effective. Obviously, we did it a ton with both Jeff and Roy in 2006-2008. Third, just a comment on your original statement that our players are handling the ball too far from the basket. Obviously, they're too far to shoot and you're right that it invites the potential for a turnover (as it did at the end of the half against NCSU). But every pass presents the potential for a turnover, and these passes do serve a purpose. They serve to draw the defense further out as the ball rotates (spreading out the defense and creating space to run this or any offense) and sometimes serve as a pressure relief if the defensive pressure has been intense. I, for one, have no problem with that portion of the offense.
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IDenj
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,527
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Post by IDenj on Mar 20, 2012 9:03:53 GMT -5
Please post about our success in the tourney over the last few years. More kool aid? Please go root for Kentucky or Syracuse. The standard of success is different around here, and - gasp! - it actually goes beyond a one game elimination tournament in March. Yes, I wish the results in the tourney were better recently, but I wouldn't want to root for any other team or coach. If you didn't enjoy following and rooting for this year's team, you really shouldn't bother with Georgetown basketball anymore. Honestly. And I say that as someone bitterly disappointed and angry that the season is over, but still proud of what was accomplished. Accept who we are. An underachieving program that bombs out in the 1st or 2nd round. Just stop all this talk about next year. It happens every spring, and most here aren't realizing next spring never comes.
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,604
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Post by guru on Mar 20, 2012 9:06:50 GMT -5
A fan commenting on the shortcomings of the program is what is wrong here? How is he holding the program back with his commentary? And it isn't one game. It is 5 years of blowing a tire in the first or second round to inferior competition in the NCAA's. It ain't a slump if you can't break out of it. Um, I haven't read all these posts, but did someone really say your infantile whining is somehow holding the program back? Or are you just being a little hysterical? Again, you should really give up on the Hoyas if you're this down on the program after a season that far surpassed anyone's realistic expectations. But I'm sure you'll keep crying for attention on this board.
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