Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2014 9:11:38 GMT -5
I guess we will find out come Nov/Dec but Cameron and Josh Smith defensively? ? Got to think after struggling through a season where we couldn’t stop anyone from scoring that he would limit minutes for more talented and versatile players... because?
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Jun 5, 2014 9:14:45 GMT -5
JTIII has run much less "princeton" style game in recent years. It's just the timing of when it's used - usually as a fallback when games are tight or in crunch time or blowout situations (Hoyas getting spanked), then we saw princeton principles for sure. But as one recruit said, JTIII shows them how the Princeton principles are used in the NBA (Spurs)
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jun 5, 2014 9:23:12 GMT -5
Coach'll have no choice, they'll revolt In general, coaches don't change when recruits do. Fans reading these recruiting pages and expecting "Dunk City" are going to be disappointed. The lineup is still DSR, Trawick, Cameron, Hopkins, and Josh Smith, with Bowen as the first off the bench. Copeland and Campbell will see a little more time than people expect right now, Peak and White probably a little less. Mourning and Hayes, not sure. I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that Cameron is some kind of lock for the starting job. "Still" implies that he was a starter last year, not a guy that averaged 13 minutes per game, including playing less than 10 minutes in five of the team's last ten games (not including a DNP in the opening round NIT game). Bowen has a much better chance of starting at the 3 than Cameron does.
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Post by hoyasaxa18 on Jun 5, 2014 9:29:02 GMT -5
I don't think we can play Bowen, Hopkins, and Smith at the same time, much less as a starting lineup. There wouldn't be nearly enough floor spacing.
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dense
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Post by dense on Jun 5, 2014 9:54:32 GMT -5
White or Copeland will probably start. I doubt Bowen or Cameron start.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Jun 5, 2014 10:03:42 GMT -5
I'll be shocked if Cameron gets more than 10-15 minutes per game. If he does, that means he either improved a ton or all of White/Copeland/Peak had lesser freshman seasons than most are expecting. All three of those guys are better players than Cameron right now, and I don't think it's close. Cameron has a role as a specialist, but he can't guard his shadow and he wasn't very good at his "specialty" last season (32.1% from 3fg).
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Post by matersammich on Jun 5, 2014 10:08:19 GMT -5
I'll be shocked if Cameron gets more than 10-15 minutes per game. If he does, that means he either improved a ton or all of White/Copeland/Peak had lesser freshman seasons than most are expecting. All three of those guys are better players than Cameron right now, and I don't think it's close. Cameron has a role as a specialist, but he can't guard his shadow and he wasn't very good at his "specialty" last season (32.1% from 3fg). Reggie has been working out with DSR. Couple this with hopefully increased confidence from being a year older and we might see a totally different Cameron this year.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jun 5, 2014 10:19:43 GMT -5
I guess we will find out come Nov/Dec but Cameron and Josh Smith defensively? ? Got to think after struggling through a season where we couldn’t stop anyone from scoring that he would limit minutes for more talented and versatile players... because? Give it a rest...
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jun 5, 2014 10:22:09 GMT -5
I'll be shocked if Cameron gets more than 10-15 minutes per game. If he does, that means he either improved a ton or all of White/Copeland/Peak had lesser freshman seasons than most are expecting. All three of those guys are better players than Cameron right now, and I don't think it's close. Cameron has a role as a specialist, but he can't guard his shadow and he wasn't very good at his "specialty" last season (32.1% from 3fg). Reggie has been working out with DSR. Couple this with hopefully increased confidence from being a year older and we might see a totally different Cameron this year. But that would entail looking at the bigger picture right? Oh the horror
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2014 10:25:16 GMT -5
I guess we will find out come Nov/Dec but Cameron and Josh Smith defensively? ? Got to think after struggling through a season where we couldn’t stop anyone from scoring that he would limit minutes for more talented and versatile players... because? Give it a rest... Give what a Rest Rock?? Is it that time again for you?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jun 5, 2014 10:31:44 GMT -5
Over the last couple of months I have debated people who felt Cameron shouldn't see the floor because of his defensive shortcomings or that the Hoyas shouldn't try counting on Josh again because he is going to hurt them defensively anyhow. Some folks in particular seem to put all hope only on the newcomers. That is one extreme.
The other extreme is DFW's post with his starting lineup predictions which is just as badly thought out imo. Unless Cameron, whom I think will do big things for the Hoyas before his career is out, has transformed himself into Dennis Scott he WILL NOT be starting.
Hopkins has a better shot at starting and I tend to side against those who dismiss him entirely. Nonetheless unless he shows great improvement and consistency he won't start for long if at all.
If the frosh live up to expectations I'm guessing at least one of them will start. In the end I think two of them will actually be in that starting lineup. My predictions are Copeland and White will make their way in the starting lineup.
As for coming off the bench I think it is reasonable to believe Bowen would be first off the bench. He's earned that and he is a positive contributor overall. But Peak won't be that far behind. From all indication he appears to be a more advanced model of Bowen and Trawick. All they have over him is experience. III won’t be able to slowwalk him into the rotation and from all I’ve read from this board and other sources, he won’t. The Hoya staff appear aware of what they have in Peak and how they must use him. Will he get 15 to 18 minutes a game? More? Will he cut into Trawick and/or Bowen’s minutes? Time will tell. What we don’t need time to determine is that DFW has it in for Peak. Twice before in this thread he has posted some unusual putdowns of the guy when fans had the audacity to be excited over Peak’s arrival.
III went on record last month claiming he was going to throw Peak, Copeland, White and Campbell immediately into the fire when the season starts. That’s III typical cue to let it be known that he is confident about what players can do, even early on in their first year. During recent years he did not make such claims about Domingo, Bradley Hayes, Bowen, Bennimon, Sanford, Moses, etc. But he said it about guys like Cameron, Starks, Lubick, and the class that came in during the fall of 2011, all of whom got into the regular rotation early on during their first year.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jun 5, 2014 10:39:54 GMT -5
Coach'll have no choice, they'll revolt In general, coaches don't change when recruits do. Fans reading these recruiting pages and expecting "Dunk City" are going to be disappointed. The lineup is still DSR, Trawick, Cameron, Hopkins, and Josh Smith, with Bowen as the first off the bench. Copeland and Campbell will see a little more time than people expect right now, Peak and White probably a little less. Mourning and Hayes, not sure. I don't think we are going to see "Dunk City," but John Thompson III has adjusted his lineups and strategies to fit his players. He did this last year with an offense that generally featured Starks and DSR with tons of ball screens. It was in no way Princeton Offense. I think the most likely starting lineup is something like DSR-Trawick-Copeland-Hopkins-Smith, with White, Peak, Cameron, and Bowen getting the most time in reserve. If the freshman show they can play, I think there's a very high chance that 2 freshman are starting by the end of the season, or at least getting starter minutes (as DSR did his freshman year). The only reason Cameron had a starting job last year is because we had nobody better - and even when he started he oftentimes got less minutes than people like Bowen. I actually think there's a fair chance Cameron ends up as the odd man out, unless he improves his shooting. With Peak, Copeland, and White all bringing better defense than Cameron has demonstrated, I think it will be a tall order for Cameron to beat them out for playing time. I really would like to see White get a fair amount of time at PF, too. Even if Hopkins starts there, he'll have to have some time at the 5 (when Smith is on the bench), so there should be plenty of minutes there. I think the guys who probably face a crunch in getting playing time are going to be Campbell, Cameron, and Hayes. I also do not expect to see much of Trey Mourning or the other walk on players.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jun 5, 2014 10:44:45 GMT -5
Give what a Rest Rock?? Is it that time again for you? No, that's just an argument that only considers what you want to focus on and you're evaluating players in a vacuum rather than examine all the trade-offs involved. By that logic we might as well not have them on the roster at all. I love defense more than anyone, but you have to be reasonable.... And you can pick and choose whatever evidence you like but Josh was noticeably playing improved defense (at least average) as he got suspended and reps in the scheme will allow both players to grow defensively. How are you gonna dismiss the abilities of two players that barely even got a full season in our complicated defensive scheme?? Until they've hit their ceiling it is only your opinion that they cannot, and have not already, become adequate defensive players. That doesn't even take into equation how they use their size to defend. Just because a player is slow-footed doesn't mean they don't understand angles and leverage. Just because Josh moves his feet slow at 350 doesn't mean he won't be able to at 300, and that certainly doesn't mean he can't learn to use his size to his advantage. Playing against someone his size in the paint area isn't just a cakewalk because you think he's too slow. Same with Cameron, it would be a different issue if he was undersized, but other than DSR he is still the best pure shooter on this team. Plenty of teams win in college with lineups that don't consist strictly of plus defenders.....that's why you put 5 guys on the court at once, not one or two. Mikael and Josh complement each other well, it's not about them performing in a vacuum. Reggie can more than make due with the athletes surrounding him on the perimeter. Saying they CANT is just a lame excuse to justify your stance. If you choose to ignore the moments that both of them have played good (not just solid) defense and want to just focus on their bad moments then that's your right, but that doesn't mean I have to sit back, read your barely-justified opinions without commenting on them. Ever heard of a word called "balance"?
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Post by daymondmyles on Jun 5, 2014 10:47:12 GMT -5
Over the last couple of months I have debated people who felt Cameron shouldn't see the floor because of his defensive shortcomings or that the Hoyas shouldn't try counting on Josh again because he is going to hurt them defensively anyhow. Some folks in particular seem to put all hope only on the newcomers. That is one extreme. The other extreme is DFW's post with his starting lineup predictions which is just as badly thought out imo. Unless Cameron, whom I think will do big things for the Hoyas before his career is out, has transformed himself into Dennis Scott he WILL NOT be starting. Hopkins has a better shot at starting and I tend to side against those who dismiss him entirely. Nonetheless unless he shows great improvement and consistency he won't start for long if at all. If the frosh live up to expectations I'm guessing at least one of them will start. In the end I think two of them will actually be in that starting lineup. My predictions are Copeland and White will make their way in the starting lineup. As for coming off the bench I think it is reasonable to believe Bowen would be first off the bench. He's earned that and he is a positive contributor overall. But Peak won't be that far behind. From all indication he appears to be a more advanced model of Bowen and Trawick. All they have over him is experience. III won’t be able to slowwalk him into the rotation and from all I’ve read from this board and other sources, he won’t. The Hoya staff appear aware of what they have in Peak and how they must use him. Will he get 15 to 18 minutes a game? More? Will he cut into Trawick and/or Bowen’s minutes? Time will tell. What we don’t need time to determine is that DFW has it in for Peak. Twice before in this thread he has posted some unusual putdowns of the guy when fans had the audacity to be excited over Peak’s arrival. III went on record last month claiming he was going to throw Peak, Copeland, White and Campbell immediately into the fire when the season starts. That’s III typical cue to let it be known that he is confident about what players can do, even early on in their first year. During recent years he did not make such claims about Domingo, Bradley Hayes, Bowen, Bennimon, Sanford, Moses, etc. But he said it about guys like Cameron, Starks, Lubick, and the class that came in during the fall of 2011, all of whom got into the regular rotation early on during their first year. I think MCI is spot on.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2014 11:57:58 GMT -5
Give what a Rest Rock?? Is it that time again for you? No, that's just an argument that only considers what you want to focus on and you're evaluating players in a vacuum rather than examine all the trade-offs involved. By that logic we might as well not have them on the roster at all. I love defense more than anyone, but you have to be reasonable.... And you can pick and choose whatever evidence you like but Josh was noticeably playing improved defense (at least average) as he got suspended and reps in the scheme will allow both players to grow defensively. How are you gonna dismiss the abilities of two players that barely even got a full season in our complicated defensive scheme?? Until they've hit their ceiling it is only your opinion that they cannot, and have not already, become adequate defensive players. That doesn't even take into equation how they use their size to defend. Just because a player is slow-footed doesn't mean they don't understand angles and leverage. Just because Josh moves his feet slow at 350 doesn't mean he won't be able to at 300, and that certainly doesn't mean he can't learn to use his size to his advantage. Playing against someone his size in the paint area isn't just a cakewalk because you think he's too slow. Same with Cameron, it would be a different issue if he was undersized, but other than DSR he is still the best pure shooter on this team. Plenty of teams win in college with lineups that don't consist strictly of plus defenders.....that's why you put 5 guys on the court at once, not one or two. Mikael and Josh complement each other well, it's not about them performing in a vacuum. Reggie can more than make due with the athletes surrounding him on the perimeter. Saying they CANT is just a lame excuse to justify your stance. If you choose to ignore the moments that both of them have played good (not just solid) defense and want to just focus on their bad moments then that's your right, but that doesn't mean I have to sit back, read your barely-justified opinions without commenting on them. Ever heard of a word called "balance"? You drew a lot of conclusions from one or two sentences that you shouldn’t have lol As if... I never said Reggie couldn’t play or Josh couldn’t play I was commenting on them playing together and there’s a huge difference… Can you understand that that or is that too much for your rude arse to fathom? This is the reason coaches do offense/defense substitutions maybe? or mix and match their line-ups? I mean it’s not like this is some wild philosophy most coaches do it, and if Josh figures to play between 20-30 and Reggie 15-20 how hard is that to do?
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jun 5, 2014 12:19:02 GMT -5
And yet there was Bo Ryan this year completely changing the pace of his offense. It does happen. That being said, I don't think it changes for us dramatically next year but by 2015 maybe. Daymondmyles, I think your point is well taken. As a matter of fact, I have detected gradual loosening up of the system already.
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dense
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Post by dense on Jun 5, 2014 12:27:59 GMT -5
Wouldnt be shocked by White getting some backcourt minutes in a combination with Peak, Trawick or DSR when Bowen and Caneron are in. Paul White has a very reliable handle.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jun 5, 2014 12:49:31 GMT -5
What we don’t need time to determine is that DFW has it in for Peak. Twice before in this thread he has posted some unusual putdowns of the guy when fans had the audacity to be excited over Peak’s arrival. My unusual take: if Peak is playing the 2, he'd better come with defense, because that's what JT III (and his predecessors) have always stressed. I think he can, but the implicit trade-off is that he's getting time ahead of Trawick, whose defensive skills have been proven in the system. In some ways, I see his time building as did Trawick, who averaged 11 min a game as a freshman, then jumped to 26 min. as a sophomore. A similar argument could be made for Campbell, but the fan fervor isn't as evident. Whether we like to admit it, freshmen take time to develop under JT III. Excepting Jon Wallace and Austin Freeman, nearly every GU guard has used his freshman season as an opportunity to grow and develop and are not going to dominate the stat sheet. Only one freshman guard since 2004 has finished in the top four in annual scoring. Maybe that's not exciting enough for you, but this is the system and JT III won't be playing a 10 man rotation. If Peak is getting 10 minutes and six points a game, that's fine with me, "unusual" as it may be.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Jun 5, 2014 12:53:29 GMT -5
With Trawick's propensity to foul this past year, to have another strong player come in would be a plus and Peak can be that guy. Where Aaron plugs in will be interesting and I would think is contingent on how the freshman develop.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jun 5, 2014 13:41:45 GMT -5
No, that's just an argument that only considers what you want to focus on and you're evaluating players in a vacuum rather than examine all the trade-offs involved. By that logic we might as well not have them on the roster at all. I love defense more than anyone, but you have to be reasonable.... And you can pick and choose whatever evidence you like but Josh was noticeably playing improved defense (at least average) as he got suspended and reps in the scheme will allow both players to grow defensively. How are you gonna dismiss the abilities of two players that barely even got a full season in our complicated defensive scheme?? Until they've hit their ceiling it is only your opinion that they cannot, and have not already, become adequate defensive players. That doesn't even take into equation how they use their size to defend. Just because a player is slow-footed doesn't mean they don't understand angles and leverage. Just because Josh moves his feet slow at 350 doesn't mean he won't be able to at 300, and that certainly doesn't mean he can't learn to use his size to his advantage. Playing against someone his size in the paint area isn't just a cakewalk because you think he's too slow. Same with Cameron, it would be a different issue if he was undersized, but other than DSR he is still the best pure shooter on this team. Plenty of teams win in college with lineups that don't consist strictly of plus defenders.....that's why you put 5 guys on the court at once, not one or two. Mikael and Josh complement each other well, it's not about them performing in a vacuum. Reggie can more than make due with the athletes surrounding him on the perimeter. Saying they CANT is just a lame excuse to justify your stance. If you choose to ignore the moments that both of them have played good (not just solid) defense and want to just focus on their bad moments then that's your right, but that doesn't mean I have to sit back, read your barely-justified opinions without commenting on them. Ever heard of a word called "balance"? You drew a lot of conclusions from one or two sentences that you shouldn’t have lol As if... I never said Reggie couldn’t play or Josh couldn’t play I was commenting on them playing together and there’s a huge difference… Can you understand that that or is that too much for your rude arse to fathom? This is the reason coaches do offense/defense substitutions maybe? or mix and match their line-ups? I mean it’s not like this is some wild philosophy most coaches do it, and if Josh figures to play between 20-30 and Reggie 15-20 how hard is that to do? No, you were commenting on their past body of work as if it's indicative of what's gonna happen in the future. Yes we have a relatively complicated defensive scheme, that's really not debatable. It's not the rotation that's the hard part, but more the communication and defensive chemistry needed to perform at a high level. And I'm not reading into anything if it's what your words actually represent. You don't have to detail every little bit of your thoughts to show what you may be thinking... Haha but I'm the one that's rude, great. Anyone who disagrees with your simple, limit-placing analysis must be a bad person huh? Or wait, I guess you can't "read in" to my post enough to realize that I already addressed the issue of them playing together, as well as individually, in detail. Don't worry I don't have to comment on your inability to comprehend analysis to make my point. But maybe that's the only way your mind can process discussion.
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