hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
Posts: 8,398
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Post by hoyainspirit on Dec 20, 2011 2:49:11 GMT -5
SF beat me to it, and stated it far more eloquently and accurately than I would have. I don't get the Nate hate. He is still a low usage player for us, but he is rebounding quite well, not turning the ball over very much(despite a couple glaring ones), playing excellent D, and is doing a good job as Henry's backup. Why is he this year's whipping boy?
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richfame
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by richfame on Dec 20, 2011 7:58:46 GMT -5
SF beat me to it, and stated it far more eloquently and accurately than I would have. I don't get the Nate hate. He is still a low usage player for us, but he is rebounding quite well, not turning the ball over very much(despite a couple glaring ones), playing excellent D, and is doing a good job as Henry's backup. Why is he this year's whipping boy? First of all I dont agree with Nate being this years Benemon but as to the why Ill take a stab at it. We brought in Freshman in Otto, Whit, Tra and these guys have contributed and have showed skill right off the bat. This year Nate has shown little skill on the offensive end and its Editeding some posters off. Also why Nate was so liked last year because he was one of the only players that always brought it and showed heart amist a team that seemed to be bipolar. This year the whole team plays with pride and guts so he is nolonger unique in that department. Lastly he is in a major funk on offense, hes not even looking to contrubite. If he has a back to the basket game, use it. If he has a foul line jumper.. use it. If he has zero game on offense then hes a liability. I personally like him and never hated on him. Its early and if he doesnt produce he will sit.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by calhoya on Dec 20, 2011 8:35:54 GMT -5
Nate is a high-energy, effort guy and that will get him minutes. He has much more talent than Benimon, but so far he is not using it all. Take the 10 foot shot and hit two in a game and it changes the other team's defense completely. Watch what happens against Memphis when Nate is in the game. They will completely disregard him on the perimeter and even at the 10-12 foot range. Suddenly we are trying to run a "Princeton-type" offense with only 4 offensive threats. Nate is assumed by the defense to be just a passer who will then crash the boards. My hope is that the kid doesn't allow himself to become such a one-dimensional player, but I cannot fault anyone expressing frustration over his performance so far, particularly when you have two freshmen who are just as tall and much more confident on the offensive end.
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3xhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by 3xhoya on Dec 20, 2011 9:51:39 GMT -5
Does anyone know what the deal is with students attending this game? I was just able to buy 5 tickets a few rows behind the basket in section 117, which I think is the main student section. Were Memphis tickets even included in the student season ticket package? I am expecting few, if any, students to be present at this game. It is a shame we may not have the proper atmosphere for the one marquee OOC game. This years schedule really did not shake out in our favor.
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rosslynhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by rosslynhoya on Dec 20, 2011 10:23:54 GMT -5
Does anyone know what the deal is with students attending this game? I was just able to buy 5 tickets a few rows behind the basket in section 117, which I think is the main student section. Were Memphis tickets even included in the student season ticket package? I am expecting few, if any, students to be present at this game. It is a shame we may not have the proper atmosphere for the one marquee OOC game. This years schedule really did not shake out in our favor. That is normally the band-side student section (Hoya and We Are). For the NJIT game at least though, that was apparently the Wizards season ticket holders section and all the students were shunted across to the back of the other basket (sections 106-107, Saxa and Georgetown). I'm sure Thursday's ticket was included in all student packages, but I have no idea what the AD and Verizon have jointly decided to do to avoid an empty arena. A selfish part of me almost wishes this game wasn't on national television, just so we're not completely embarrassed for having fewer than 6k show up to the game.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,899
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 20, 2011 11:00:19 GMT -5
SF beat me to it, and stated it far more eloquently and accurately than I would have. I don't get the Nate hate. He is still a low usage player for us, but he is rebounding quite well, not turning the ball over very much(despite a couple glaring ones), playing excellent D, and is doing a good job as Henry's backup. Why is he this year's whipping boy? First of all I dont agree with Nate being this years Benemon but as to the why Ill take a stab at it. We brought in Freshman in Otto, Whit, Tra and these guys have contributed and have showed skill right off the bat. This year Nate has shown little skill on the offensive end and its Editeding some posters off. Also why Nate was so liked last year because he was one of the only players that always brought it and showed heart amist a team that seemed to be bipolar. This year the whole team plays with pride and guts so he is nolonger unique in that department. Lastly he is in a major funk on offense, hes not even looking to contrubite. If he has a back to the basket game, use it. If he has a foul line jumper.. use it. If he has zero game on offense then hes a liability. I personally like him and never hated on him. Its early and if he doesnt produce he will sit. So why aren't all of you bashing the heck out of Whittington? He has no offensive game whatsoever. No one is at Benimon levels but he's certainly at Jeremiah Rivers levels. He rebounds like a guard, he's only taken 8 2's all season (and only made 3) to 24 threes (and only shot 25%). He's shooting less than 50% from the line. He creates many less assists and actually turns the ball over more than Nate on a rate basis for the season! (No, really, I messed that up before). He's playing about the same number of minutes. Whittington really doesn't drive, his jump shot doesn't go down, he doesn't create for others. He plays some D. So really? Is it just cause he looks gawky? Can you not get past a couple of bad TOs?
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by prhoya on Dec 20, 2011 11:01:01 GMT -5
If it's available, Nate needs to take the FT line shot.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by RDF on Dec 20, 2011 11:23:59 GMT -5
It's a long season and Nate has shown some flashes of snapping out of his funk. See same things he did last year--but some players have improved (Henry) or are better then what was around last year (Porter instead of Benimon) and Hollis/Jason on court at same time means offensive role for Lubick is still taking time. He's at least facing up and dribbling into space where he has to be accounted for lately and he's provided some nice plays. I'm very interested to see if he shows improvement this week compared to initial Memphis game.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 20, 2011 11:30:13 GMT -5
I think Nate showed some improvement against Howard and I hope it continues against Memphis. Lubick's defense was key against Kansas (even though we lost), since he was the only person who could come close to keeping with Robinson. We'll need him on defense.
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KirbyKeger
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by KirbyKeger on Dec 20, 2011 12:02:21 GMT -5
Thursday's ticket is available to students but not included. We have to pick it up separately if we wish to attend. This is the case for all break games.
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KirbyKeger
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by KirbyKeger on Dec 20, 2011 12:07:02 GMT -5
I don't think Nate and Whittington are necessarily comparable. Nate is a sophomore who started games in the Big East last year. Greg is a freshman. When a sophomore who has had some real experience looks like a deer in the headlights when he gets the ball, its disconcerting. Greg on the other hand, though his shot hasn't been falling, looks fairly comfortable out there. I think the main issue people have taken with Nate is the lack of confidence (which has likely caused the brutal turnovers). People are happy with Greg's comfort in the offense/ the looks that he's taking and are confident that eventually, his shots will start falling. Also, his huge tip-in against Memphis probably doesn't hurt the way he's viewed on here either.
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tonyparker
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by tonyparker on Dec 20, 2011 12:39:02 GMT -5
Another major difference between Whittington and Lubick is ("perceived") upside.
Whittington is a 6'8 shooting guard with a beautiful stroke, fantastic athleticism and an above-average handle. He played in a terrible high school conference, played very little AAU ball, and is making a tough transition. It's been bumpy, but he's already hit big shots in big games and hasn't made many of the boneheaded mistakes that our frosh usually do. The shots aren't falling, but when they do, watch out.
Nate was expected to be closer to a finished product. Top 50 recruit, dominated New England high school hoops, was considered a peer if not a better prospect than guys like Jordan Williams, Erik Murphy, Alex Oriakhi, and Tyler Olander. Yet he is getting a ton of minutes out of necessity and averaging 5 and 4. Guy needs to pull a Henry Sims/Julian Vaughn and lock himself in the gym this summer because given his ability his performance has been an embarassment. I personally think he is capable of much more than simply being a guy who sets good picks and hustles. So did every national basketball recruiting analyst in the country. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think he is getting too much credit for being a "hard work" guy. I'd argue that his performance on the court exhibits a lack of dedication to his game.
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Dec 20, 2011 12:48:06 GMT -5
So really? Is it just cause he looks gawky? Can you not get past a couple of bad TOs? That's exactly what it is--stats aren't going to change that. And once you get on the badside of HT, every bad play is magnified and every good one glossed over. At no point was I more annoyed with this than after the Bama game.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 20, 2011 12:59:30 GMT -5
I don't think Nate and Whittington are necessarily comparable. Nate is a sophomore who started games in the Big East last year. Greg is a freshman. When a sophomore who has had some real experience looks like a deer in the headlights when he gets the ball, its disconcerting. Greg on the other hand, though his shot hasn't been falling, looks fairly comfortable out there. I think the main issue people have taken with Nate is the lack of confidence (which has likely caused the brutal turnovers). People are happy with Greg's comfort in the offense/ the looks that he's taking and are confident that eventually, his shots will start falling. Also, his huge tip-in against Memphis probably doesn't hurt the way he's viewed on here either. 1) You're right that it's not comparable in terms of evaluating development, etc. But it's absolutely comparable in terms of in game evaluation and discussion of PT. "He's killing us!" comments should be regardless of experience. Also: Nate has been MUCH better offensively than Greg. 2) Your comment on confidence ('they'll fall') confirms for me what I thought -- people are evaluating more on look than results. As usual. There's no reason his shot will start to fall. He shoots a lot but it's not pretty at all. He's got plenty of time to improve and plenty of Hoyas do, but the reality is, he's a liability on offense right now. Nate is getting singled out by a lot of people, and I suspect a lot of those folks never really liked him. A lot of them are also the people who wanted Henry to leave or never play, who thought Markel would never be good, etc. Nate gets jumped on from the first mistake.
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KirbyKeger
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by KirbyKeger on Dec 20, 2011 13:10:38 GMT -5
Your defense of Nate seems to be just as much a bashing of Greg. In which case, you're just like anybody you're accusing of not liking Nate, wanting Henry to leave, etc. You're just attacking a different player. The fact of the matter is, whether you like it or not, Nate has been a deer in the headlights all season and it bothers people. I don't see why its not okay for that to bother some of us.
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Boz
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123 Fireballs!
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Post by Boz on Dec 20, 2011 13:16:32 GMT -5
I think everyone should read lic's post and talk about how we are going to whup on Memphis....
...TWO TIMES!!
Hopefully Greg AND Nate will contribute. If nothing else, to slow down Will Barton and Tarik Black, respectively, even just a little bit.
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Post by rustyshackleford on Dec 20, 2011 13:23:14 GMT -5
I haven't been dogging Nate but I figure I'd chip in. The reason I'm more disappointed in Nate than anybody else is my expectations for him. Last year as a freshman he was a great role player who did a bunch of things well and who seemed to have a developing, albeit limited offensive game. As a result I was already expecting him to be more of a threat on offense this year. Instead he's regressed - largely because of what seems like mental reasons - and is literally not even a threat on offense. He still does other things well - he's a good rebounder, a very smart player who does little things on offense and is a good passer and he plays ok d. As a result I still think he's a valuable player to this team.
I expect more from him though. If he just had the confidence to take the ft line or slightly beyond j (which he apparently has the range for) it would completely change the complexion of our offense. It would open up lanes for his already dangerous passing, get bigs off him down low and clear space for cutters. For a guy who will be counted upon as a veteran next year I don't think its unfair to be rooting for him to get out of this funk on offense. I expected him to be a marginal all BE player by his junior year - I hope he moves in that direction.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 20, 2011 13:28:57 GMT -5
Another major difference between Whittington and Lubick is ("perceived") upside. Whittington is a 6'8 shooting guard with a beautiful stroke, There's nothing beautiful about his nice. It's not ugly, but it's hardly pretty. I love Whit's upside and I hope he develops. I think he should get PT. He's hit one big shot. He's actually made a bunch of bonehead plays, but no one seems to notice. He's had bad turnovers, dropped passes and takes contested threes in key situations (which he misses). He's given a free ride when Nate is jumped on. Yes, he has potential and more than Nate, but Nate grabs a ton of boards in limited time and people degrade it; Whit makes a nice hustle play just a possession or two after an ill-advised three and he's exempt from criticism. I actually hate this line of argument because I love Whit and what he could be (dreams of him being a strong offensive player in a couple of years to go with being a 6'8" 2 guard). But the Nate-bashing is ridiculous as well. His performance has been better than you think - that's the problem. Let's look at one line of ridiculousness in your post: "Yet he is getting a ton of minutes out of necessity and averaging 5 and 4."He's not getting a ton of minutes, he's playing 52% of minutes. Twenty one minutes per game isn't a ton. Nate is sixth in minutes, barely ahead of Greg. As for the 5 and 4, how are those bad numbers in 20 minutes? Per opportunity, Nate garners the most defensive rebounds on the team. He's he second most prolific offensive rebounder, to Hopkins.He's a low usage guy on offense, though from a Poss% used, he's comparable to Markel or Otto and from a shot % he's nearer to Jabril or Whit. Which IS low, but I have no problem with him deferring to better scorers. How is that a bad thing? Basically, you think he should be better. You have no idea how hard he actually works, but dammit, it's obviously not enough. Can we agree that he's a better option offensively and defensively than Hopkins? (Who I like as well but has been lost at points). Porter's already playing 66% of minutes and those are even low because of creampuffs. Do you want to play smaller? Do you want to play Hopkins' minutes? I'm sure there's a world where Nate is better right now. But a turnover is a turnover. There's no reason to crucify him for one and not other players in the same situation. And saying "he's killing us" or somesuch is ridiculous when other players are playing worse. ------------------------- (One last aside: way to cherry pick comparables. How about I do it from Nate's same class, players ranked in the Top 50. Nate was 42nd in RSCI, in a string of five straight PFs. I'll compare him to his contemporaries, and then, for fun, to the rest of the Top 50. JayVaughn Pinkston (Nova), 46th, Pinkston already has been disciplined multiple times, Nova sucks, and Pinskton's playing Lubick minutes but turns the ball over constantly and has an ORating around 75. Luke Cothron (Auburn), 45th, Auburn is really terrible, and I have no idea where Cothron is because he isn't playing for them and didn't last year. I wonder if he never made it? Dominique Ferguson (FIU), 44th, playing a lot, shooting terrible, low O Rating, slightly worse rebounder. Okaro White (FSU), ranked 43rd, right behind Nate's 42nd. Lower O Rating, rebounds worse, turns the ball over more, almost no assists. Dwight Powell (Stan), 38th, plays much less, way worse O Rating, turns the ball over constantly. Josh Hairston (Duke), 32nd, almost never plays. Worse O Rating, worse D Rebounding but better O Rebounder. More of an incomplete, but Patric Young (Florida), first guy who is demonstrably better, but oh, he was ranked 19th. All the rest of the Top 20 PFs are better than Nate, no doubt. So it's clear -- Nate's been either better or more or less equal to those ranked with him in the 25 to 50 rank, and yes, worse, than those in the Top 25. And by the way, Oriakhi has been benched this year and is playing terrible for him. Which is a whole nother story.
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rosslynhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by rosslynhoya on Dec 20, 2011 13:37:01 GMT -5
I don't think Nate and Whittington are necessarily comparable. Nate is a sophomore who started games in the Big East last year. Greg is a freshman. When a sophomore who has had some real experience looks like a deer in the headlights when he gets the ball, its disconcerting. Greg on the other hand, though his shot hasn't been falling, looks fairly comfortable out there. I think the main issue people have taken with Nate is the lack of confidence (which has likely caused the brutal turnovers). People are happy with Greg's comfort in the offense/ the looks that he's taking and are confident that eventually, his shots will start falling. Also, his huge tip-in against Memphis probably doesn't hurt the way he's viewed on here either. This observation feels so accurate it's depressing. Nate looks like he's failing out there; Greg looks like he's almost successful. We care much more about the effort and appearance than the actual results. I'm still a huge Nate fan but even I can admit that he seems to be regressing offensively. He's having a lot of trouble moving WITH the ball at this point, in a way that he didn't last year, and I'm really hoping that a big breakout game will un-jinx him. We know his HS record, and the fundamentals are sound; there's no apparent reason for him to be in this downright Sappian funk for so long.
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alleninxis
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Post by alleninxis on Dec 20, 2011 13:39:13 GMT -5
going to see a different Memphis team personnel-wise on Thursday.
Carmouche hasn't played since Maui and Pastner says he doesn't expect him to play Thursday. Wes Witherspoon has lost his starting job and only played 12 and 3 minutes in the last two games. Ferakhon Hall is now eligible as a mid-season transfer from Seton Hall.
starting five is now: Jackson Crawford Barton Thomas Black
with A. Barton, Hall and Witherspoon off the bench. Really only played a 7 man rotation last night with Witherspoon playing so little.
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