Libya

[theexorcist]

Surprised that there hasn't been anything posted on this yet.

I really hope Syria's people are the next to go free.

[hoyawatcher]

Before we get to Syria I just hope that "free" in Libya is something at least remotely similar to "free" in the way we want it to be. Reasonably free elections and no Islamic takeover of power in the vacuum of Ghadafi's fall. And somehow the power centers of Tripoli and Benghazi figure out a way to co-exist.

NATO has the overthrow they/we wanted but now is the tricky part of country building without boots on the ground.

But yes I too hope Syria will follow suit

[kchoya]

Are we going to declare war on Syria too? I'm losing track of all the countries where we're deploying our military assets.

[ksf42001]

I personally would like more of these "no americans died" wars over what we've had the last decade.

[Boz]

Aug 22, 2011 9:50:53 GMT -5 ksf42001 said:

I personally would like more of these "no americans died" wars over what we've had the last decade.

Well, I think it would not be a stretch to say that, just like in Iraq and even Afghanistan, toppling the regime is the "easy" part.

Libya's real challenge -- and the part we need to monitor very carefully -- begins now.

It's safe to say we f-ed it up pretty royally in Iraq, whether you agreed with the mission or not. I don't think we f-ed it up with bad intentions, just the law of unintended consequences writ extremely large. I don't know what role we are going to play now in Libya, but hopefully that won't happen again.

But still in all, despite all of the potential perils that may lay ahead, I refuse to consider the ouster of Qaddafi (which is how I choose to spell his name today), as anything but really great news.

EDIT: And, if we are allowed some levity in moments like these, I think this is my favorite comment about Libya I've head so far (though granted, I haven't been reading much):

"Gaddafi is ousted but Qaddafi fights on. No one can find Gadhafi."

twitter.com/#%21/sethmeyers21

;D

[Bando]

It's a good thing we pay for defense with Monopoly money. On to Damascus, debt be damned!

[Boz]

Aug 22, 2011 15:30:14 GMT -5 Bando said:

It's a good thing we pay for defense with Monopoly money. On to Damascus, debt be damned!

It's like Condi Rice and Darth Vader are still runnin' the show, ain't it?

[The Stig]

Aug 22, 2011 8:31:03 GMT -5 hoyawatcher said:

Before we get to Syria I just hope that "free" in Libya is something at least remotely similar to "free" in the way we want it to be. Reasonably free elections and no Islamic takeover of power in the vacuum of Ghadafi's fall. And somehow the power centers of Tripoli and Benghazi figure out a way to co-exist.

NATO has the overthrow they/we wanted but now is the tricky part of country building without boots on the ground.

But yes I too hope Syria will follow suit

I don't think we'll see an Islamist takeover in Libya. If we see further infighting among rebel groups (a strong possibility), I think it'll be along tribal/regional lines, not religious lines.

It'll be interesting to see if the NTC moves to Tripoli once the city stabilizes, or whether they effectively move the capital to Benghazi. The other big issue is the Berbers - they led the rebellion in the west that ultimately punched through to Tripoli first. They cooperated with the NTC, but it would be a stretch to call them part of the NTC. How they work with the new government will be a big factor in deciding Libya's fate.

As for Syria, Assad isn't going anywhere.

[hoyawatcher]

There are several early reports that the draft interim constitution lays out Sharia as the basis for the law of the land. Nothing is really clear right now and these reports may well be wrong. But there is enough smoke to be worried about how this will play out.

[kchoya]

Aug 22, 2011 15:48:39 GMT -5 Boz said:

Aug 22, 2011 15:30:14 GMT -5 Bando said:

It's a good thing we pay for defense with Monopoly money. On to Damascus, debt be damned!

It's like Condi Rice and Darth Vader are still runnin' the show, ain't it?

If you listen to POTUS, you'd think Bush was still running everything, and Obama was just a helpless bystander. Except for the good things -- those are all attributable to Obama.

[jerseyhoya34]

Aug 22, 2011 15:48:39 GMT -5 Boz said:

Aug 22, 2011 15:30:14 GMT -5 Bando said:

It's a good thing we pay for defense with Monopoly money. On to Damascus, debt be damned!

It's like Condi Rice and Darth Vader are still runnin' the show, ain't it?

Not really - most of the military involvement here is tactical, it seems, leaving the actual regime change to be homegrown (although perhaps sparked by some intelligence work). The Bush Administration seems to have believed in the idea that democratic peace and regime change are only achieved by war (both dubious propositions). We got very little in terms of either out of Iraq - none of the predictions of the postmodern Sovietologists in the Bush Administration (democratic domino theory) have come to pass through Iraq. Not to mention that this Libya thing is still hundreds of billions of dollars short on price tag - a fact lost on the tea partiers, most of whom enthusiastically supported the War Against Iraq.

[Boz]

Welcome back! I missed good old humorless Ambassador!

But you failed to use either of the keywords "military industrial" "religio-political" or "neo-conservative" in your response. Minus 10 points, I'm afraid.

I'll try to set some more bait later for you to earn it back.

;D

(just bustin' your chops; sorry)

[kchoya]

Aug 22, 2011 17:37:27 GMT -5 Boz said:

Welcome back! I missed good old humorless Ambassador!

But you failed to use either of the keywords "military industrial" "religio-political" or "neo-conservative" in your response. Minus 10 points, I'm afraid.

I'll try to set some more bait later for you to earn it back.

;D

(just bustin' your chops; sorry)

+5 for using "postmodern Sovietologists"
-10 for being under 2,000 words
zero points for already editing the post (he edits every post)

[rosslynhoya]

Aug 22, 2011 16:31:40 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Except for the good things -- those are all attributable to Obama.

If Obama comes back from vacay to claim credit for the victory in Libya, will Hillary throw a lamp at him?

By which I mean, will she miss?

[Coast2CoastHoya]

Aug 22, 2011 17:40:12 GMT -5 kchoya said:

Aug 22, 2011 17:37:27 GMT -5 Boz said:

Welcome back! I missed good old humorless Ambassador!

But you failed to use either of the keywords "military industrial" "religio-political" or "neo-conservative" in your response. Minus 10 points, I'm afraid.

I'll try to set some more bait later for you to earn it back.

;D

(just bustin' your chops; sorry)

+5 for using "postmodern Sovietologists"
-10 for being under 2,000 words
zero points for already editing the post (he edits every post)

Since when are war and death cause for humor?

[kchoya]

Aug 22, 2011 20:53:31 GMT -5 Coast2CoastHoya said:

Aug 22, 2011 17:40:12 GMT -5 kchoya said:

+5 for using "postmodern Sovietologists"
-10 for being under 2,000 words
zero points for already editing the post (he edits every post)

Since when are war and death cause for humor?

Dear god, did your perspective and sense of humor get thrown in the hamper with the panties you wore yesterday?

[strummer8526]

Ah, good. We're only 16 posts into this thread and already we have a rousing political debate interspersed with a healthy dose of such little gems as: a scoring guide for Ambassador's posts, a Dick Cheney (or maybe Donald Rumsfeld?)-to-Darth Vader analogy, a reference to the Secretary of State throwing a lamp at the President, and a very confusing question about the location of Coast2Coast's panties.

I see a bright future for this one.

[AvantGuardHoya]

www.businessinsider.com/qaddafi-gaddafi-kadafi-qadaffi-libya-spelling-2011-2

[kchoya]

At the risk of offending the humorless, I thought I'd post this from @thebillwalton:

After hearing about the blazing speed he showcased when fleeing Libya, Al Davis has selected Muammar Gaddafi in today's supplemental draft.

[theexorcist]

Aug 22, 2011 20:53:31 GMT -5 Coast2CoastHoya said:

Aug 22, 2011 17:40:12 GMT -5 kchoya said:

+5 for using "postmodern Sovietologists"
-10 for being under 2,000 words
zero points for already editing the post (he edits every post)

Since when are war and death cause for humor?

Since Woody Allen released "Love and Death".